Melisandre Chapter

[wolfmaid7]

I didn't slant anything- I gave my interpretation. I don't even know what you are arguing at this point. I don't even get why you think this somehow tells her that Stannis is "marching to his doom" because there's absolutely nothing concerning Stannis IN the vision. So if you want to interpret it differently- go right ahead. But don't act like you have some superior knowledge concerning a vague vision that we don't even have any answers for yet- because you don't. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But you can't prove it at this point, anymore than you can prove you are right.

Same could be said for Dany- and really, she fits it better than Jon at this point and has done since book 2, so really, I would say that this line of thinking is sort of ridiculous since Jon isn't even the #1 candidate at this point.

LOL, this is a ridiculous accusation. I don't see how my way is more "flawed" than what anyone else (yourself included) has presented.

Where does Mel see Stannis "marching up his doom"? I am utterly lost as to how one draws this conclusion from several unrelated visions that had nothing of Stannis in them.

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the

hearthfire. "One more time." She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been

brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had

sent.Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him.(She's hoping the vision of him marching to peril would change that's why she kept asking.Hoping she would get a boon from R'hollor)."Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

If you had presented the text in it's entirety would have been better .The sad thing is you quoted this two pages aback and ignored what it means.This is one thing that urks me some things have to be seen in totality and in context else huge chunks of info is missed.

I'm getting why you said what you said but its loosely drawn because the context of the entire text is not taken. What did Mel ask,what did she really ask?Origin of the vision,essence

With that being said i'll draw another conclusion and probably better:

"Show me Stannis,show me your king your instrument". That question in particular asks nothing of AA( we know AA was no king in life). Its specific to 'show me you king your instrument'.We get BR and Bran Jon's whispered name.

Depending on whose behind the vision or if its just magic ( given her location and the cold context of the vision).

BOOM there you have Jon's endorsement as KOW.

[Black Crow]

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the

hearthfire. "One more time." She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been

brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had

sent.Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him.(She's hoping the vision of him marching to peril would change that's why she kept asking.Hoping she would get a boon from R'hollor)."Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."....

I agree, the crucial point here is that Mel is trying unsuccessfully to find out what was happening to Stannis, and its always Stannis, the reference to Azor Ahai is little more than an afterthought because she believes him to be Azor Ahai, and its Stannis she asks for.

Instead:

Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent

And so she gets sent those other visions instead, not just about John Snow but the other lot as well - and whatever else he might be Bloodraven/Kurtz certainly aint Azor Ahai

[sj4iy]

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the

hearthfire. "One more time." She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been

brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had

sent.Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him.(She's hoping the vision of him marching to peril would change that's why she kept asking.Hoping she would get a boon from R'hollor)."Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

If you had presented the text in it's entirety would have been better .The sad thing is you quoted this two pages aback and ignored what it means.This is one thing that urks me some things have to be seen in totality and in context else huge chunks of info is missed.

I'm getting why you said what you said but its loosely drawn because the context of the entire text is not taken. What did Mel ask,what did she really ask?Origin of the vision,essence

With that being said i'll draw another conclusion and probably better:

"Show me Stannis,show me your king your instrument". That question in particular asks nothing of AA( we know AA was no king in life). Its specific to 'show me you king your instrument'.We get BR and Bran Jon's whispered name.

Depending on whose behind the vision or if its just magic ( given her location and the cold context of the vision).

BOOM there you have Jon's endorsement as KOW.

She says "Show me your king, your instrument" and asks R'hllor to vouchsafe her a vision of what awaits AAR. R'hllor sends her visions about her king- her instrument. He's not showing her visions about Stannis, but she is seeing visions about AAR. She sees Jon EVERY TIME she looks into the flames- and we know that she is searching for her king.

You're choosing to ignore the fact that she specifically asks to see her king and her instrument. I'm not. I think she got what she asked for.

[Black Crow]

She says "Show me your king, your instrument" and asks R'hllor to vouchsafe her a vision of what awaits AAR. R'hllor sends her visions about her king- her instrument. He's not showing her visions about Stannis, but she is seeing visions about AAR. She sees Jon EVERY TIME she looks into the flames- and we know that she is searching for her king.

You're choosing to ignore the fact that she specifically asks to see her king and her instrument. I'm not. I think she got what she asked for.

Not at all, she is asking to see Stannis

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

As much as I love all of the POVs I must say that I'm looking forward to her's the most in tWoW. Is that strange? I find her so fascinating and terrifying at the same time. She's wielding a sword with no hilt and she knows it.

And she thinks that's the right thing to do. I need to know MORE! ^_^

Well at least Ghost didn't seem to mind her, with all her faults.

She's an idiot but damnit, she's our idiot.

[wolfmaid7]

Not at all, she is asking to see Stannis

Bingo and will add .In that desperation to see Stannis to use Sj4ij's reasoning and how he arrived at his conclusion.

She asked to see "your king and your instrument" and that exactly what we've seen.

Isn't Jon going to be a king isn't he somebody's instrument.

AA was never a King nor in legend was he R'hollor's instrument.

I say this to show how ridiculous the arrival of that conclusion is that because "these things suppossedly awaited Jon Snow" that this is proof.

I've done the same thing and arrived at Jon being KOW.

[wolfmaid7]

Well at least Ghost didn't seem to mind her, with all her faults.

She's an idiot but damnit, she's our idiot.

Mel whammied Ghost a bit...There is a reason to Jon when Mel said Ghost's name it sounded like a "SONG" to Jon.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Mel drew hers that Jon is surrounded by death ergo he's in danger.Another conclusion he is himself dangerous.

Actually, that was what I wrote but perhaps it wasn't clear. I think that part is a clear signal that Jon is danger and what I might have written a bit clearer is the thousand skull part makes me think he'll be very dangerous.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.

I suppose this is the ominous part. It does imply that Jon is connected with either danger or death and not particularly for Melisandre. That's not the impression I get from this scene. It seems to be implying a much larger scale.

Also, whose speaking we've seen this with Varys and his balls and MMD.These are stuff to consider.

Hmmmm. I hadn't thought that the incident with Varys could be connected to BR. If that is the case, and (iirc, that was done with a blood and fire sacrifice) is that once again a push that R'hollor and The Great Other are one? Have you guys discussed this in the Heresy threads?

There is a nice quote from Anne Grolle about how GRRM likes to reveal info.I'll post that in a bit.

I know the one. Its where she says he says things 3 times, each one being less subtle than the last. Has Jon been called the AAR before? I assume that is the line you mean is being repeated?

[Annara Snow]

She definitely is using him.

She's under the impression it's for his and the realms own good.

But it serves her and hers interests as much as stannis' right now so it works.

' I ask for a glimpse of the king and I see only snow'

She been riding stannis to get to Jon.

Neither me. In fact, I think she's legit in love with Stannis and that's clouding her judgement.

She's certainly not 'using' Stannis, but I also don't think she's in love with him - she probably really likes him, but not to the point that it would be her primary motivation. She really believes that he's Azor Ahai Reborn, and has been telling him that from the start. It's not like she hasn't been honest with him about her motivations. Melisandre is completely devoted to the Lord of Light and to the battle that she believes AAR will be crucial for; she sees the world as a battle between the ultimate good and ultimate evil (the Great Other) and believes that she has to do anything it takes to ensure that the good wins. If she is using Stannis, it's only as much as he is using her (and he's as honest about what he wants as she is), because he wants to win the throne he believes he has both the right to and the duty to take it, and he sees Melisandre as the one whose power can make it possible. They are in a mutually beneficial relationship, each for their own reasons. Stannis isn't really religious, and Mel doesn't really care about the Iron Throne. Love isn't the primary motivation for either of them. I don't know if I'd even call what they have 'love'.

Now, it would be interesting to see how Melisandre would react if she realized that Stannis was not Azor Ahai Reborn.

[wolfmaid7]

Actually, that was what I wrote but perhaps it wasn't clear. I think that part is a clear signal that Jon is danger and what I might have written a bit clearer is the thousand skull part makes me think he'll be very dangerous.

Hmmmm. I hadn't thought that the incident with Varys could be connected to BR. If that is the case, and (iirc, that was done with a blood and fire sacrifice) is that once again a push that R'hollor and The Great Other are one? Have you guys discussed this in the Heresy threads?

I know the one. Its where she says he says things 3 times, each one being less subtle than the last. Has Jon been called the AAR before? I assume that is the line you mean is being repeated?

I wouldn't say that the incidents with Varys or MMD with the voices from the flame or brazier. I brought it up to show that we should be dubious of the voices behind the flame.Its always someone whose apt at magic.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

BOOM there you have Jon's endorsement as KOW.

I believe there has been mention of Jon as KOW before. Do you guys discuss this in Heresy? Can you point me to any threads? I'd love to know more of what the KOW really means.

ETA: nvm - I think I found it :)

Mel whammied Ghost a bit...There is a reason to Jon when Mel said Ghost's name it sounded like a "SONG" to Jon.

This.

[sj4iy]

Not at all, she is asking to see Stannis

No, she THINKS she's asking to see Stannis. But she phrases it as "Show me your king, your instrument". R'hllor sends her what she wants to know- she simply doesn't realize that her 'king' is not Stannis.

She sees nothing at all related to Stannis. Everything is related to Jon, and the crumbling towers may even be related to Dany (or Jon, we just don't know yet). But there's nothing at all pointing to Stannis in this, which is why I find it odd that people are like "This is about Stannis!" when it's clearly nothing to do with him. She simply has her lines crossed.

[Black Crow]

"Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."....

Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree because what she has asked to be shown is Stannis [your king, your instrument etc etc...] and this is emphasised by "Stannis was marching south into peril [the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn.] Mel wants to see Stannis. Excising his name from your quotations, as you persist in doing, doesn't alter that

[sj4iy]

"Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."....

Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree because what she has asked to be shown is Stannis [your king, your instrument etc etc...] and this is emphasised by "Stannis was marching south into peril [the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn.] Mel wants to see Stannis. Excising his name from your quotations, as you persist in doing, doesn't alter that

I didn't 'excise' them or pretend she didn't say it. She did- but she ALSO asked to see 'her king', her instrument'. My point is that it doesn't MATTER if she says his name or not- she's looking for the one she believes to be AAR, her king. And she sees him, she just doesn't realize it.

And if you INSIST that she is asking for Stannis, why isn't she shown him? Or anything to do with him? Is R'hllor just ignoring her outright and showing her any random thing? Because I certainly don't think so. It's sort of silly for her to constantly look for AAR in the flames and constantly see Jon and think that the two aren't somehow connected. She keeps repeating this throughout the book, so it's not as if this is a one-off.

“R’hllor sends us what visions he will, but I shall seek for this man Tormund in the flames.” Melisandre’s red lips curled into a smile. “I have seen you in my fires, Jon Snow.”

A wonder you haven’t had the poor man burned. All it would take was a word in the queen’s ear, and Patchface would feed her fires. “You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?”

“When I search for him all I see is snow.”

“I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames. The danger that I warned you of grows very close now.”

I'm not going to simply 'ignore' the obvious connection here because of the way she words something. We know her intent, we know her beliefs. We know that she is WRONG in those beliefs, and we know that she keeps seeing Jon over and over and over again.

If some people want to say "It's a red herring!" then so be it. I don't think it is remotely qualified to be a red herring, because Dany would be a better candidate for a red herring given the fact that she fulfilled the prophecy before we ever knew about it and she has dragons.

[Black Crow]

It's because “R’hllor sends us what visions he will" and they, as she admits, are not always what she wants to see, which in this case is Stannis who she refers to as AAR.

As for Danaerys Targaryen I'd agree she is indeed a red herring; but in the sense that while she fits the prophecy in every way and is indeed the champion of R'hllor; as such she is the Destroyer of Worlds who far from saving Westeros will usher in the endless summer sought by Mel and Master Benero

ETA: spelling

[sj4iy]

It's because “R’hllor sends us what visions he will" and they, as she admits, are not always what she wants to see, which in this case is Stannis who she refers to as AAR.

Or maybe she's seeing what she wants to see but for the wrong person- which would make sense given how often she is seeing Jon (every time she looks into the flames) and how often she is trying to find out what happens to Stannis.

IMO, this is a case of her seeing exactly what she is asking to see and misinterpreting its meaning.

As for Danaerys Targaryen I'd agree she is indeed a red herring; but in the sense that while she fits the prophecy in every way and is indeed the champion of R'hllor; as such she is the Destroyer of Worlds who far from saving Westeros will usher in the endless summer sought by Mel and Master Benero

ETA: spelling

I don't see AAR as a 'destroyer' of worlds. No, I don't think he/she is the 'ultimate hero', either...I simply think they will be the one to lead humanity against the Others. And I don't see the 'endless summer' as a bad thing. I simply think it means that defeating the Others could reset the seasons back to normalcy as they once were.

[Black Crow]

Not according to Master Benero it isn't :

“Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

[The Dragon has three heads]

No, she is not using him to get to Jon. So far she truly believes Stannis is AA, she wants to find where Stannis is, but she gets warnings of Jon.

I'm also looking forward to more POVs of Mel, and try to get to know her a little better

Just cause she's unaware she's doing it doesn't make it less true.

[sj4iy]

Not according to Master Benero it isn't :

“Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

They aren't mutually exclusive. Both Dany and Jon could be AAR/TPTWP for all we know. But we know nothing really about Benerro, while we know a lot more about Melisandre. So I can't speak to the validity of his vision or how he came to the conclusion that Dany was it. For all we know, he said "She must be it because she has dragons!" like Aemon did. We know what Melisandre saw without any filter on it. We also know what she was asking to see. We can't say the same for Benerro, nor would I trust what he says more than I would trust what Melisandre says on the subject.

[nanother]

I'll assume for the sake of simplicity that Rh'llor is indeed a sapient, god-like entity that sends Mel these visions with a purpose (which I'm less than certain about).

I doubt Mel got the answer she thought was asking for (emphasis on thought). Half of the problem is that to find answers you have to ask the right question, and she keeps asking utter nonsense. The other half is that we don't know what nRh'llor's purpose is with this whole business. Is it to to lead Mel to Azor Ahai as she assumes/hopes, or is he just using Mel's desire to find AA to get her do stuff he needs to get done? I'm leaning towards the latter. I can just hear Rh'llor thinking "I dunno who the heck this AA guy is and what he has to do with Stannis, and which one you really want to know about ... but that's not important anyway: THIS is what you should be concerned with". (and that's ignoring the possible Bloodraven hijack)

Also, LOL ... is she not asking what awaits her? "Show me Stannis .... your King, your instrument" - now who is the main instrument of Rh'llor here? I'd think it's Mel herself. She asked for 3 consequent things, thinking they're all the same - Stannis, Rh'llor's king, and RH'llor's instrument ... and got answer to the last :p

Anyway, back on track - we don't know how she ended up on Dragonstone - my guess would be that she was asking Rh'llor for directions to AA (although one has to wonder whether she met Marwyn in Asshai, whether they discussed certain prophecies and whether this had to do with her trip to DS ... but I'm getting off track again).

We do know some of the stuff she foresaw in her flames happened because she made them happen (Renly's death, Stannis wielding a burning sword). So wouldn't it be convenient for Rh'llor to show her what he wants and rely on her getting it done? She does everything thinking that 1. her god was guiding her to find and help AA and 2. she's done with the finding part and now she's helping AA. Now, we can be reasonably sure she's wrong about #2, so what reason do we have to think that she's right about #1?

The bottom line is, the passages in Mel's chapter are suitably vague to give everyone the reading they desire. If you want to assume that Mel's purpose is to find AA then sure, it can be seen as a clue pointing to Jon as AA. But the only reason to think that is Mel's own belief - and we've seen how good she's at deluding herself. And without that assumption, the 'clue' is more likely to be a red herring.