Tyrion is Tywin's Son...but...

[OnlyTheLadder]

A popular theory is that Tyrion is the third head of the dragon, and therefore a Targ. However others note that Tyrion's story line becomes much less compelling when he is not really Tywin's son, and I tend to agree.

Martin is trying to lead the readers to believe in the Tyrion = Targ theory, but I think he will keep the storyline between Tywin and Tyrion meaningful by confirming their father son relationship.

One way I propose this can be done is if Tyrion is the product of Tywin and a whore (possibly from Dorne or Essos).

Here's the evidence in favor of this idea:

- Tyrion has half Lannister characteristics (half blonde and one green eye) and half Dornish/Essene characteristics (black hair and one black eye). This can be explained that instead of a dominant gene being expressed, instead both mother and father's genes are expressed physically. If Tyrion's mother was Joanna, there would be little chance of him having these dark characteristics. Aerys + Joanna doesn't make sense in this regard either.

- Tywin is a man who enjoys whores (like Shae) but is very sensitive to Tyrion taking whores into his bed (like Tysha). Clearly this is hypocrisy, and he's not a prude (or he's a self hating prude) but if Tyrion himself was born of a whore, then it would make sense why his father would deny him any rights or privileges of a legitimate son.

So how did it come about that Tyrion is believed to be born from Joanna Lannister? The theories are correct that Aerys impregnated Joanna. Tywin was of course whoring around as well. Of course, he finds out, but rather than incurring Aerys' wrath by killing her immediately, he waits until she's undergoing childbirth and arranges her death at that time (an easy cover since death during childbirth was common). He replaces the Targ child with his own spawn, who is Tyrion. In this way he takes revenge on his unfaithful wife, and on Aerys too by making him believe he spawned a dwarf.

This theory has an interesting by product, which is that there may be a Joanna + Aerys child out there if Tywin didn't kill the child immediately. This is possible because Tywin may have been keeping a Targ around as a hostage/insurance.

Yep, its highly speculative. Its the best way I can explain Tyrion's dark features however, and it maintains the father son relationship between Tywin and Tyrion.

Thoughts please.

[Merlmaid]

Interesting theory.

I don't see Tywin gving Tyrion any privileges though, if he is just a whore's son. Accepting a child like Tyrion as his own would go against everything Tywin stands for. Being born the son of Tywin and Joanna and therefore technically being a trueborn son, was the one thing Tyrion always had going for him. If it weren't for that, Tywin would have immediately disposed of him, I'm sure. Maintaining Lannister pride would go above shaming the wife.

I always thought the dark features were just some random genetic coincidence...

[Bryanfury]

Nope. Not at all. Absolutely not.

[Dorian Martell]

Nope. Not at all. Absolutely not.

Unless it is!

just kidding. The whole point of the tyrion/tywin relationship is that the only reason why the son wasn't killed by the father is the taboo of kinslaying. Tywin has no reason to believe that Tyrion is not his trueborn son so although Tywin loathes his son, Tyrion is tolorated and supported as is befitting a son of the rock

[Blazfemur]

WHY CANT TYRION BE A LANNISTER

[Third sons]

I don't Tywin were whoring while his wife was alive

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Arguments against this theory:

1. You have to invent two ad hoc characters to make it work: a whore or paramour for Tywin and a half-Targ infant that may or may not have grown to adulthood. There isn't a shred of textual support for this.

2. "Tywin is a man who enjoys whores" is a bit of an exaggeration. There's no mention of him bedding other women before or after Joanna. Maybe he was just really discreet or maybe Shae was really persuasive. Maybe trial by combat just makes him really horny. Exactly how Shae ended up in his bed that night is a mystery.

3. "So how did it come about that Tyrion is believed to be born from Joanna Lannister?" I didn't realize Tyrion's maternity was the least bit in doubt. On her "bed of blood" Joanna would have been treated by a Maester and/or a midwife, possibly a Septon or Septa and maybe a few other attendants. Either they were all part of this baby swapping conspiracy or Tywin would have had to kill them to keep them quiet.

p.s.: Not to jack the thread but something occurs to me: Assuming R+L=J, could there have been a yet-to-be-revealed Maester at Jon's birth?

[Petyr Patter]

I have to disagree.

Tyrion's is essentially the best son Tywin could have hoped for. He cares deeply for his family, easily makes the bold moves that win, has shown a knack for diplomacy and war, and is incredibly intelligent and well read.

Tyrion is also the worst son Tywin could have expected. He was born with a horrible deformity, had little respect for tradition, and openly whored.

The paradox is not Tyrion being in reality a Targaryan or some other bastard, its Tywin's pride refusing to see the value in his youngest son when he didn't look the part.

Ultimately, I think Tyrion is going to be the best possible heir to Casterly Rock Tywin could ever have wanted.

However, I don't think he'll keep the name Lannister: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/108471-will-sthls/

[Lord Lannister]

Completely out of character for Tywin to bring in a bastard son and legitimize him. Absurd that no one would know about it either, you can't exactly keep that sort of thing secret.

[JRose1989]

Why on earth would you assume that Tywin loved whores?

He is a man after all, and after the love of his life died, he never found the need to marry again. Joanna was an exceptional woman based on canon, and the old saying that Tywin ruled the seven kingdoms, and that Joana ruled Tywin I think is evidence enough of how much they loved and respected each other. Not even to mention Kevan saying the best part of his brother died with her. But still...a man has other urges, and whores are a common cure for that particular itch so I hear.

I just don't understand people trying to out-do each other with crazy 'Tyrion could be THIS or THIS...' theories.

As George himself has said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

He is a Lannister, his aunt even confirmed it in her conversation with Jamie telling him that Tyrion is Tywin's true son.

[Sanset]

If Tywin was trying to cover up sexual dysfunction, as I read in another thread, it is useful to have children that proves him fertile. All the info that he loved Joanna comes from Tywin-fans-characters, that is unreliable info. However the info that comes from his actions shows a different Tywin. He was cruel, nasty, narcissistic, a psychopath, and he had an obsession in punishing women and people that openly have a lot of sex like Tyrion. He tried to pass all that as honor, but if we see Eddard, we can see true honor, Tywin was hypocrite.
Tywin wasn't whoring. That passage he is supposed to order to built is another stupid trick to hide his true sexual dysfunction and show off his false honor. He knew that the info of the secret passage will spread easily, it is a juicy gossip.

He was very sick because of his pride and anger.

His behavior shows his true colors, not the tinted opinions of his puppets.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Completely out of character for Tywin to bring in a bastard son and legitimize him. Absurd that no one would know about it either, you can't exactly keep that sort of thing secret.

:agree:

Because Tywin loves Tyrion so much, right? The only reason he kept him alive is because Tyrion was his son with Joanna. If Tyrion's mother was some whore, Tywin would never have believed that he was the father. And even if he did, at best, he'd gave the poor girl some money to silence her. Having dwarf as a son is in Tywin's eyes seen as a big slight to House Lannister. He wouldn't voluntarily endure the humiliation, just to to a get a secret joke on Aerys, who wouldn't care anyway and would publicly rub in Tywin's eyes that the gods are trying to mock and humble him.

This theory is beyond ridiculous and contradicts almost everything we know about Tywin.

[Tankbuster]

Say, didn't Tyrion kill Joanna while being born?

[Thrice Drowned Veteran]

if anything, jaime and cersei are targs vice tyrion

[OnlyTheLadder]

Actually I'm kind of digging this theory that Tyrion is actually the son of Joanna and Lewyn Martell. Makes a lot of sense to me, esp where the black eye and hair come into play.

[IRON BANK]

Awoiaf strongly points to Tyron being a targ.

[Hardtack]

I have a radical counter-theory: Tywin Lannister slept with Joanna Lannister. Approximately nine months later, Tyrion was born, though Joanna died giving birth.

Unfortunately, I don't have any textual evidence to support this. I'm just working off wild conjecture. Still, I think it's worth thinking about.

[Isobel Harper]

GRRM has already stated that the heads of the dragon don't need to be Targaryen necessarily.

If Tywin were not Tyrion's father, it would spoil the character development and cheapen his journey, for Tyrion but mostly for the reader.

The idea of any other mother besides Joanna is absurd. Sorry.

[Mithras]

Tyrion's bio dad is Gerion Lannister.