Is the golden age of TV over now?

[red snow]

I've never seen one single episode of The West Wing, but if it's anything like The Newsroom (a show i find extremely pretentious) I'm quite ok with never seeing it.

I did enjoy the first few seasons although i became a bit disenchanted with how it was so nice and I'm too cynical to think there are so many people helping to run America because they actually care. It's probably why I prefer "In the thick of it" and should try "house of cards".

West Wing did perfect the art of dynamic walking along corridors while delivering exposition though,

[Castel]

I did enjoy the first few seasons although i became a bit disenchanted with how it was so nice and I'm too cynical to think there are so many people helping to run America because they actually care. It's probably why I prefer "In the thick of it" and should try "house of cards".

West Wing did perfect the art of dynamic walking along corridors while delivering exposition though,

Funnily enough, I feel like this is where the criticism of the Thick of It from the person that inspired it, Campbell, is quite cutting.

The Thick of It is just a show about banal people who have no desires at all, politically. They're just shells. It's like watching a train wreck; it's only interesting because we want to see how they crash. I suppose it's a sort of mean-spirited fantasy about politicians. True or not it's just...boring when the trainwreck is not inherently entertaining.

Honestly, you can't even compare the two shows. The West Wing is about people with actual power and agency. The Thick of It is about minor and weak (well, for ministers) politicians that can basically hang-on by their fingernails. They're just in a different position (though I grant that the West Wing is sappy at times)

[Fez]

I'd say Veep is a far more accurate representation of politics than The West Wing ever was. The only real inaccuracy is that politicians and staffers aren't actually that witty; they are definitely as petty, selfish, and vindictive though.

[UtherSnow]

There will always be some pundit who makes some dumb statement just to be the first kid on the block. All I say is the same as The Hound would probably say. Fuck the pundits!

I don't watch GOT just because it's got dragons. I don't watch it to check the various body-part counts either. So what if dragons are woven in as part of the story. So what if we saw Lena's stand-in's bum once. That's all these so-called pundits tell us are examples of what we tune in for. No bloody pundit ever asked me for my opinion.

Why do I watch GOT? I love the story!

Go through the list of other shows I like, the reason I tune in will be very, very similar. Apart from such as Later, with Jools Holland. Where's the story there? It's the variety of music that calls me back.

The golden age of TV is over? Ba-Humbug! Bollocks! I bet they're still watching shows they taped on a reel-to-reel video machine. (That's pre-VHS and pre-BetaMax!)

[Zorral]

Am I the only person in the world who thinks The Sopranos wasn't all that great?

You are not. Let's start with those stupid and BORING dream sequences. Gads, I loathe dream sequences whether on screen or on the page. Failure of writerly imagination every time. (Why yes, these are the worst aspect of Mad Men too. Coincidence? One might think not .... :) )

Season 2 was the best, and it went way down from there. Didn't even bother to watch the last season.

[Zorral]

There will always be some pundit who makes some dumb statement just to be the first kid on the block. All I say is the same as The Hound would probably say. Fuck the pundits!

I don't watch GOT just because it's got dragons. I don't watch it to check the various body-part counts either. So what if dragons are woven in as part of the story. So what if we saw Lena's stand-in's bum once. That's all these so-called pundits tell us are examples of what we tune in for. No bloody pundit ever asked me for my opinion.

Why do I watch GOT? I love the story!

Go through the list of other shows I like, the reason I tune in will be very, very similar. Apart from such as Later, with Jools Holland. Where's the story there? It's the variety of music that calls me back.

The golden age of TV is over? Ba-Humbug! Bollocks! I bet they're still watching shows they taped on a reel-to-reel video machine. (That's pre-VHS and pre-BetaMax!)

Can you tell us what the story is that you're watching for, please?

[Veltigar]

You are not. Let's start with those stupid and BORING dream sequences. Gads, I loathe dream sequences whether on screen or on the page. Failure of writerly imagination every time. (Why yes, these are the worst aspect of Mad Men too. Coincidence? One might think not .... :) )

Season 2 was the best, and it went way down from there. Didn't even bother to watch the last season.

:o Even the ToJ-sequence? That's one of the best parts of ASOIAF

[Mark Antony]

Always weirds me out when people say Sopranos went down hill as it went along. Was just arguing about that over on the Shield thread.

Fez, agree completely about Veep.

[Relic]

I think that while the show was on air there was a sense that the Sopranos was getting shittier as time went on. It wasn't until i rewatched it that i realized how brilliant the last few seasons were.

[Nictarion]

Always weirds me out when people say Sopranos went down hill as it went along. Was just arguing about that over on the Shield thread.

I don't get it either.

Some of the best episodes are from the later seasons. Whoever Did This, Whitecaps, Long Term Parking, etc.

[JonArryn]

I think the first two and last two seasons of The Sopranos are a bit better then 3 and 4. 3 and 4 do have some good episodes, even some of the best episodes, but seasons 1,2 and 5 and 6 are a lot better, especially if you look at the season-arcs of them.

Seasons 3 and 4 sometimes feel like too much filler and no real outlined goal. I know the plans for S3 were differnet and got changed when Livias actor died. The first plan was that she would testify against Tony, but instead we got a pretty boring arc with Jackie Jr which I think didn't really amount to much.

I think season 5 might be my favorite. Steve Buscemi and Adriana, and the whole feel and beginning conflict with NY was great. Seeing Johnny Sack get taken and Tony run away through the snow is classic too.

[Zorral]

:o Even the ToJ-sequence? That's one of the best parts of ASOIAF

Discussing Sopranos.

[Shryke]

I'd say Veep is a far more accurate representation of politics than The West Wing ever was. The only real inaccuracy is that politicians and staffers aren't actually that witty; they are definitely as petty, selfish, and vindictive though.

Yeah, I know too much about american politics to find The West Wing anything but an insufferably smug fantasy about Sorkin's dubious politics.

[Nictarion]

Discussing Sopranos.

You did say "or on the page".:-P

[Castel]

I'd say Veep is a far more accurate representation of politics than The West Wing ever was. The only real inaccuracy is that politicians and staffers aren't actually that witty; they are definitely as petty, selfish, and vindictive though.

I never really got into Veep. But I will say: I don't mind if they're petty or selfish or vindictive. Or cowardly and self-serving. There has to be something there beyond a complete omnishambles you know? IMO it actually kind of weakens any critique or drama if the politicians are not just how we imagine them to be morally but are bouncing from one gaffe to another. And I don't even mean the political ones we'd expect. Maybe it's just that I'm not that familiar with the British system and they all really suck that much :dunno:

The Thick of It was certainly better when that was the case.

EDIT: Hell, even House of Cards, which could be summarized as "Palpatine decided to run for Senate", sidesteps this.

[Veltigar]

Discussing Sopranos.

You did say:

You are not. Let's start with those stupid and BORING dream sequences. Gads, I loathe dream sequences whether on screen or on the page. Failure of writerly imagination every time. (Why yes, these are the worst aspect of Mad Men too. Coincidence? One might think not .... :) )

Season 2 was the best, and it went way down from there. Didn't even bother to watch the last season.

You did say "or on the page".:-P

Damn, ninja'd by Nictarion :)

[Zorral]

Ah, critical of lack of proper transition!

Whether on screen or on the page I loathe dream sequences As with the Sopranos, dream sequences in ASOIF are dumb and boring, because writers almost invariably resort to dream sequences on screen or on the page when they have a failure of writerly imagination as to how to get from one point to another, and invariably the point attempting to made is unimportant or has already been made. Again, in books, fiction or nonfiction,it's the same failure of inserting endless passages in italics, whether within the main body of the narrative text, or, as in one 30 page prologue. Like dream sequences, the writer thinks to to point to something as portentous and significant, but do not, while broadcasting pretense and maybe even a level of portentousness.

Hmmmm. Still needs work! But it's time to drink some wine, so I'mma gonna lazy out. Catch ya down the road. :cheers:

[Werthead]

Possible definitions, which of course people can argue about:

Pre-Golden Age/Foreshadowers

Steve Bocho's shows (when they were good)

The X-Files

Seinfeld (kind of)

Homicide: Life on the Street

Twin Peaks

The West Wing

Oz

Actual Golden Age For Reals

The Sopranos

The Wire

Deadwood

Rome

Breaking Bad

House of Cards (new version)

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Mad Men

Boardwalk Empire

True Detective

Battlestar Galactica (before it turned shit, the point of which may be disputable)

State of Play (the only UK show I feel comfortable putting in here, which is poor showing from us; maybe Life on Mars/Ashes to Ashes if it had been a lot more consistent or Extras if it had been less self-indulgent)

Shows On at the Same Time as the Golden Age But Not Quite As Good/Are Actually Crap

Dexter

Game of Thrones

The Walking Dead

Treme

True Blood (perhaps a show that learned all the wrong lessons from the golden age? I'd put shit like The Strain and Under the Dome in here as well)

Then there's stuff like Lost which just don't feel like they can go on a 'golden age' list even if we just counted the periods when they were really good (maybe, at a stretch, the first season of Heroes as well). Those feel more like shows we could have have gotten earlier: really good genre stuff but not 'golden age' material. Whilst OTOH I'd feel more comfortable putting good-era BSG in there. That might be down to almost all of these 'golden age' shows having a strong basis in reality, or themes that engage more strongly with real issues (BSG, despite its setting, heavily riffing off the war on terror).

Arc shows weren't invented by the Sopranos no but that show was a watershed moment for TV in a way none of those other shows were.

I think people forget the impact some of the foreshadowing shows had: Hill Street Blues, NYPD Blue (in particular) and The X-Files all got a lot of press and coverage for their serialised storylines and, in the case of the X-Files, more film-like cinematography. The Sopranos was relatively little-watched in its first season or two, and didn't blow up massively until a little way into its run. Also, I always get the impression it was a much bigger deal inside the USA than outside. In terms of international profile, certainly here in the UK it was Sex and the City (which started a year or so earlier) that put HBO on the map.

The Sopranos is a really huge deal, of course, but it's overstating the case to say other shows weren't popular and weren't gamechangers before it came along.

Also, and again this may be more in the UK, HBO became really notable for more of a triple-punch also incorporating Sex and the City and Band of Brothers (which was absolutely massive over here, and still sells ridiculous numbers of DVDs and Blu-Rays year on year even today).

I did enjoy the first few seasons although i became a bit disenchanted with how it was so nice and I'm too cynical to think there are so many people helping to run America because they actually care. It's probably why I prefer "In the thick of it" and should try "house of cards".

House of Cards is good - not as good as the UK version, as Spacey is in no way operating on Richardson's level and there is way too much filler to pad out the season lengths - but Veep is much more the American version of and spiritual sequel to The Thick of It (it's actually made by the exact same people, plus a few American writers).

In fact, after two seasons I think I marginally prefer Veep. Much as I love The Thick of It, it is too unrelentingly cynical on occasion and the politicians aren't realistic figures (even if the inanity of the clusterfucks that happen are quite realistic; Plebgate could have been a ToI storyline). Veep is a bit lighter, there are more genuine relationships in there and, critically, Selina Meyer is actually shown as both a potentially effective politician and also one who is not entirely selfishly motivated (only mostly so). That's more than you can say for almost anyone in the Thick of It. I was missing Tucker's profanageddon, but at the end of Season 1 they bring in another politician who is almost as amazing at swearing, so that made up for it.

I think that while the show was on air there was a sense that the Sopranos was getting shittier as time went on. It wasn't until i rewatched it that i realized how brilliant the last few seasons were.

I haven't properly watched The Sopranos - will get to it in about a year on my current schedule - but I do get the impression that people say it's later seasons are weaker only in relation to the earlier. A bit like how people moan about The Wire's second and fifth seasons, but they're actually still awesome and packed with brilliant moments. They're just not quite as near-flawless as the other seasons are.

[Winterfell is Burning]

If House of Cards is a better show than Game of Thrones, I'm Batman.

Seriously, House of Cards s02 should be re-titled "Everyone but Kevin Spacey and Robin Wright has the IQ of a 2 year old".

[Castel]

If House of Cards is a better show than Game of Thrones, I'm Batman.

Seriously, House of Cards s02 should be re-titled "Everyone but Kevin Spacey and Robin Wright has the IQ of a 2 year old".

But it is gorgeous though.