Why did the north not declare independence after the Dance/Death of the Dragons?

[Bironic]

We know that Torrhen Stark knelt before the Targaryens,which imho was a wise decision, because they had Dragons. After the conquest the relations between the starks and targaryens were difficult to say the least. The forced Vale-marriage, the forced acceptance of the new gift to the NW, etc. etc.

The second century after the conquest (100- 200 AC) was a century with a lot of mediocre rulers ( Aegon IV, Daeron I, Baelor, the regents of Aegon III, Aegon II, Viserys I) and a century of crisis for the Targaryens.

Why didn't the realm fall apart after the Dance/Death of the dragons? Dragons were the ones who enabled the Targaryens to conquer westeros in the first place.

After the Dance of dragons the targaryens had only 1 tamed dragon (a hatchling) and almost all of Westeros was severely damaged by warfare. If Cregan Stark would have declared himself King in the North, the regents couldn't have done anything against it. At this point Dorne was still independent and in a much better state than the rest of the Kingdoms.

After the last dragon died 153 AC, the danger of dragons was at an end, still the north remained under the rule of the Iron throne. They remained loyal also during/after the conquest of dorne, although this conquest was further prove that the targaryens weren't able to conquer anything without dragons. Baelor's peace (as much as I admire it) was a signal to everybody: if you don't accept the Iron Throne and go to a full blown war against us, we will give you a prince and peace. Still the North remained loyal. Why?

I completely understand that the "central regions"(crownlands, riverlands, stormlands, reach, a bit less westerlands & vale) remained under the targaryen rule. They share a common religion(faith of 7), common culture (chivalry & knights) have very few natural defenses in between them(Crownlands, Riverlands, Reach, stormlands), their ruling house wasn't "royal" or an independent kingdom before (Tyrell, Tully, crownland houses, Baratheon), have a lot of marriages/wards from their regions and they used to make common cause against foreign reavers (ironborn & dornishmen).

But why did the north and also the Ironborn chose to remain in the 7K? They had the example of Dorne, who fared quite well, without being part of the targaryen empire.

post your opinions.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Because the Iron Throne would not just let them go and would have the armies of 6 realms at their disposal to 'encourage' them to stay in.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Because Cregan didn't want to and shaped the policy of the North for the best part of the century.

[John Doe]

Because being a part of the seve kigdoms is good for the North and the Nights' Watch.

[the storm king returns]

Numerous reasons actually.........

1) The Targaryans were still a house to fear they might not of had dragons but they did still rule the 7 kindoms meaning it Cregan Stark declared independance he would have 6 kindoms asking him what the beef is lol

2) The Starks bent the knee and took an oath to serve the Targaryans as loyal bannerman, there not gonna be oath breakers just because the Targs lost there dragons there is NO honor in that.

3) The Targs feared there own bannerman staying loyal to the crown which would mean fighting your own people and possibly allowing enemys to cross MC if the North loyalists held it first.

[Mithras]

It is said in AGoT that no king had visited the King's Tower at the CB for a hundred years. That coincides with the aftermath of First Blackfyre Rebellion and the rebellion at Skagos in which a Stark Lord was killed. I think the IT helped the Starks in defeating the Skagosi Rebellion and Daeron II visited the Winterfell/Wall. We also know that a couple of decades later, the IT intervened with the Dagon Greyjoy problem and saved the Starks once again. It is also said that Cregan Stark reaped many rewards of his support to Aegon III.

[Barrick Eddon]

Because being a part of the seve kigdoms is good for the North and the Nights' Watch.

I don't think so.

[Barrick Eddon]

It is said in AGoT that no king had visited the King's Tower at the CB for a hundred years. That coincides with the aftermath of First Blackfyre Rebellion and the rebellion at Skagos in which a Stark Lord was killed. I think the IT helped the Starks in defeating the Skagosi Rebellion and Daeron II visited the Winterfell/Wall. We also know that a couple of decades later, the IT intervened with the Dagon Greyjoy problem and saved the Starks once again. It is also said that Cregan Stark reaped many rewards of his support to Aegon III.

1. There's no evidence in that , i doubt that the IT helped the Starks .

2.Saved from what ironborn :rofl: , once again ????? the Targs never saved the Starks from anything .

[Barty]

Simple Answer - Cregan Stark. He ruled the North for a long time after the death of the dragons and he remained loyal. And for this show of loyalty he was rewarded very richly - though whether he deserved these rich gifts is in question since he did jack shit during the war. I'm guessing half these gifts were just because they were afraid of him.

[Barty]

It is said in AGoT that no king had visited the King's Tower at the CB for a hundred years. That coincides with the aftermath of First Blackfyre Rebellion and the rebellion at Skagos in which a Stark Lord was killed. I think the IT helped the Starks in defeating the Skagosi Rebellion and Daeron II visited the Winterfell/Wall. We also know that a couple of decades later, the IT intervened with the Dagon Greyjoy problem and saved the Starks once again. It is also said that Cregan Stark reaped many rewards of his support to Aegon III.

I dont remember reading about the IT helping the Starks anywhere. Could you please provide a quote or page number

[Colonel Green]

Presumably because they didn't want to. The Starks had fairly wide latitude for operation within the Seven Kingdoms, and, as with the other kingdoms, seem to have grown accustomed to the new order. The North-Riverlands secession movement at the end of the third century AC was prompted by very specific grievances.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Because being a part of the seve kigdoms is good for the North and the Nights' Watch.

You are going to have to explain that...The Iron throne has seen 6 Starks killed in two generations, the Night's Watch is in terminal decline populated by convicts and not men of skill.

The Iron Throne gave away Stark land to the Night's Watch, against the advice of the Stark Lord however they saw to it no long term provisions were given to the watch from any southern house. The land only temporarily helped and is now largely deserted. (Eddard wants to re-populate the gift) The Northerners sustain the Nights Watch, they give to them out of their own harvests, not southerners.

Simple Answer - Cregan Stark. He ruled the North for a long time after the death of the dragons and he remained loyal. And for this show of loyalty he was rewarded very richly - though whether he deserved these rich gifts is in question since he did jack shit during the war.

What rich gifts? He was promised a Targ princess and didn't get one.

[Barty]

Because the Iron Throne would not just let them go and would have the armies of 6 realms at their disposal to 'encourage' them to stay in.

5 realms - Dorne was not part of the 7 kingdoms. And all of these 5 realms had just been bled half to death while the North was at full strength. If Cregan wanted he could have captured KL and killed of all remaining Targaryens (thus splitting the rest of westeros into 7 kingdoms again) and no one would have been able to stop him.

[Colonel Green]

What rich gifts? He was promised a Targ princess and didn't get one.

Yandel says that Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his service to the Blacks, though the Targaryen princess wasn't one of them (and he may have declined that himself, seeing as he could easily have insisted on Baela and/or Rhaena (possibly) when he came down south, but he married Black Aly instead.

[Barty]

What rich gifts? He was promised a Targ princess and didn't get one.

I'm guessing the usual - gold, tax cuts, influence over the court appointments etc

We have earlier discussed House Stark’s role in the Dance of the Dragons. Let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III … even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Yandel says that Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his service to the Blacks, though the Targaryen princess wasn't one of them (and he may have declined that himself, seeing as he could easily have insisted on Baela and/or Rhaena (possibly) when he came down south, but he married Black Aly instead.

But as they are unspecified we really can't pass judgement on whether they were so great.

[Mithras]

1. There's no evidence in that , i doubt that the IT helped the Starks .

2.Saved from what ironborn :rofl: , once again ????? the Targs never saved the Starks from anything .

I dont remember reading about the IT helping the Starks anywhere. Could you please provide a quote or page number

The Lord Commander had given him rooms in the King’s Tower—so-called, though no king had visited it for a hundred years—

Who is this king who stayed in the King's Tower about a hundred years ago?

“Too cold up there for me,” said Ser Maynard. “If you want to kill krakens, go west. The Lannisters are building ships to strike back at the iron-men on their home islands. That’s how you put an end to Dagon Greyjoy. Fighting him on land is fruitless, he just slips back to sea. You have to beat him on the water.”

“The throne should take a lesson from Stark and Lannister,” declared Ser Kyle the Cat. “At least they fight. What do the Targaryens do? King Aerys hides amongst his books, Prince Rhaegel prances naked through the Red Keep’s halls, and Prince Maekar broods at Summerhall.”

“Myself, I blame Bloodraven,” Ser Kyle went on. “He is the King’s Hand, yet he does nothing, whilst the krakens spread flame and terror up and down the sunset sea.”

Ser Maynard gave a shrug. “His eye is fixed on Tyrosh, where Bittersteel sits in exile, plotting with the sons of Daemon Blackfyre. So he keeps the king’s ships close at hand, lest they attempt to cross.”

We see that the IT was holding back because of the danger of Bittersteel in Tyrosh.

Almost a hundred years had passed since Dagon Greyjoy sat the Seastone Chair, but the ironborn still told tales of his raids and battles. In Dagon’s day a weak king sat the Iron Throne, his rheumy eyes fixed across the narrow sea where bastards and exiles plotted rebellion. So forth from Pyke Lord Dagon sailed, to make the Sunset Sea his own. “He bearded the lion in his den and tied the direwolf’s tail in knots, but even Dagon could not defeat the dragons.

This means that the IT eventually helped the Starks/Lannisters to defeat Dagon Greyjoy.

[Lee-Sensei]

They could have marched into KL and no one would be able to stop them? I find that hard to believe.

[Colonel Green]

But as they are unspecified we really can't pass judgement on whether they were so great.

There's no reason to think they weren't (especially seeing as the premise of this thread is asking why the Starks stayed in the Seven Kingdoms; Cregan obviously didn't think he'd gotten a raw deal).

They could have marched into KL and no one would be able to stop them? I find that hard to believe.

After the Battle of the Kingsroad, Cregan had a huge, unblooded army, which was the only fresh fighting force in the Seven Kingdoms, and certainly the only one in King's Landing. That was why he was named Hand, and why he able to order the execution/exile of numerous powerful individuals.

[Lee-Sensei]

Is this story in the Princess and the Queen?