I'm proud of Robb for marrying Jeyne. I can't say that was a bad decision.

[Robb_Warged]

He loved her. Among love, he chose to marry her to PROTECT HER HONOR (Family, duty, honor.). He died for his choice. I'm proud of him for marrying the woman he loved and for seeking her protection and happiness. Sincere love is hard to come by

Robb will ultimately take the blame for the North becoming a nightmare. That's how the cookie crumbles when you are the leader of anything. But Robb marrying Jeyne was not the total reason the North was lost and everyone knows that.

The Freys and Boltons are nutcases. Robb could have been perfect and his enemies still would have looked for any slight or misstep as an excuse to betray him. Case in point, look at Theon. Robb did him no wrong, Theon was a legitimate friend, and Robb was still betrayed by him. The Freys and Boltons would have eventually betrayed Robb one way or another.

I'm proud of you Robb. Rest in peace.

The wolf in the night.....

[shadow282]

Did he though? Does it say anywhere that he loves her before he marries her? I believe it says he did it to protect her honor.

[David Selig]

If getting yourself, your mother and thousands of others killed isn't a mistake, what is a mistake in your book then?

And really even without the Red Wedding it's incredibly irresponsible. You are a king in the middle of a vicious war, your enemies outnumber you, yet you basically throw away something like 15% of your army in order to marry the hot girl.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Sure, it was morally a good decision, but bad from a pragmatic point of view.

[Robb_Warged]

If getting yourself, your mother and thousands of others killed isn't a mistake, what is a mistake in your book then?

And really even without the Red Wedding it's incredibly irresponsible. You are a king in the middle of a vicious war, your enemies outnumber you, yet you basically throw away something like 15% of your army in order to marry the hot girl.

You're ignoring what I'm arguing. The bolded sentence doesn't exist solely because of Robb's choice to marry Jeyne. Everyone in the North was making major mistakes. There is no way Robb's decision to marry Jeyne made Roose Bolton magically switch from SINCERELY supporting an independent North led by the Starks to wanting to usurp the Starks and take the North for himself

[David Selig]

You're ignoring what I'm arguing. The bolded sentence doesn't exist solely because of Robb's choice to marry Jeyne. Everyone in the North was making major mistakes. There is no way Robb's choice to marry Jeyne made Roose Bolton magically switch from supporting an independent North led by the Starks to wanting to usurp the Starks and take the North for himself

Not solely, sure. But it was a major contributing factor.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Robb only needed to wait for a month. If she was with child, marry her. If she didn't, marry her to Edmure.

Yes, it sounds cold, but he was a King. A King can't think with his heart but his brain, and definitely not with his penis. Look how that ended up for Aegon IV and Aegon V.

[Tiliana]

You can be proud of it, it's still objectively a bad decision

And as to Theon being a "legitimate friend", well in my opinion he was as legitmate a friend as those completely fake and egotistical people you meet in college. Except Theon wasn't nearly as good at hiding it, which speaks to Robb's social ability more than anything else. Even Bran could see it

[Robb_Warged]

Not solely, sure. But it was a major contributing factor.

A LOT of things were major contributing factors to the Starks losing the North. So I'm done with the Robb guilt. When Catelyn doesn't give away Jaime, when Edmure doesn't fumble the ball, when Theon doesn't take Winterfell, when the Boltons aren't Judas Iscariot, when Rickard Karstark doesn't murder children, THEN I will hold Robb more accountable for Jeyne. Everyone in the North was making immense mistakes. Roose and the Freys and others would look for any opportunity to Red Wedding Robb, with Jeyne or without her.

All things considered, I am PROUD of Robb for protecting the honor of his love. And I don't hold that decision against him.

Robb captured Jaime and was undefeated on the battlefield. With the devastating mistakes made by those around him, I'm not naive enough to place the sole blame on the North's problems on Robb's decision to marry Jeyne

[jon stark I]

Well if I have to be truthful Robb lost the war because of his nonexisting alliances.Vale didn't come, Dorne stayed out and Riverlands were a dead weight.After Tyrells joinefd Lannisters Robb had no chance.He won the battles he didn't lost the war but he couldn't win the war either.Robb completed his mission in the books if he lived he would have kept his army near Moat and that is it.Maybe he could join Jon in defense of the Wall but other then that the war was over.

[kimim]

You're ignoring what I'm arguing. The bolded sentence doesn't exist solely because of Robb's choice to marry Jeyne. Everyone in the North was making major mistakes. There is no way Robb's decision to marry Jeyne made Roose Bolton magically switch from SINCERELY supporting an independent North led by the Starks to wanting to usurp the Starks and take the North for himself

ita. After Blackwater, Robb and his cause are dead men walking. Robb and his mother and his bannermen, however, die for real at the RW, and the immediate reason for the RW is Robb's marriage to Jeyne. The marriage, then, turns into THE reason why Robb falls, when in fact there are a multitude of factors.

[Robb_Warged]

Well if I have to be truthful Robb lost the war because of his nonexisting alliances.Vale didn't come, Dorne stayed out and Riverlands were a dead weight.After Tyrells joinefd Lannisters Robb had no chance.He won the battles he didn't lost the war but he couldn't win the war either.Robb completed his mission in the books if he lived he would have kept his army near Moat and that is it.Maybe he could join Jon in defense of the Wall but other then that the war was over.

The strongest house from the North supporting him was the demonic Bolton house. Roose was never loyal. Why would Roose go from supporting Robb as his king with the history Starks and Boltons have to deciding to betray him and take the North from him? He never sincerely supported King Robb

[Brahood Witout Manners]

Sick troll thread brah.

[David Selig]

Robb captured Jaime and was undefeated on the battlefield. With the devastating mistakes made by those around him, I'm not naive enough to place the sole blame on the North's problems on Robb's decision to marrye Jeyne

Nobody does that. It's still a mistake though.

Just because it wasn't the only reason for North's problems doesn't make it a good decision.

[Robb_Warged]

Nobody does that. It's still a mistake though.

Just because it wasn't the only reason for North's problems doesn't make it a good decision.

Yes people do; "The King who lost the North"

Sick troll thread brah.

It's not trolling. It's calling a spade a spade. If Robb is doomed to die, isn't it better to die having married the woman you love? Having protected her honor?

[Hangover of the Morning]

What happened to Robb was horrible. The punishment was utterly disproportionate to his crime but by absolving him from all blame and saying that the RW would happen anyway, you are doing a disservice to his character. Robb purely being a victim of treachery around him makes him IMHO by far less interesting and realistic character, especially given his age.

I think his situation is much more similar to Brandon (or to a degree to Lyanna) than let's say Elia or Sansa. They both suffered a terrible injustice but those things just didn't happen out of the blue and they themselves were instrumental in their own downfall.

I like Robb and don't condemn him for marrying Jeyne. I understand him but it was a bad decision at that time. In peace, things would be very different.

[Tiliana]

A LOT of things were major contributing factors for the Starks losing the North. So I'm done with the Robb guilt. When Catelyn doesn't give away Jaime, when Edmure doesn't fumble the ball, when Theon doesn't take Winterfell, when the Boltons aren't Judas Iscariot, when Rickard Karstark doesn't murder children,

Catelyn giving away Jaime lost the Karstarks and that's about it. It was relatively minor in the grand scheme of things anyways because it was already over by that point. Edmure didn't fumble anything at all, Robb gave poor orders and it's his fault alone. Theon taking Winterfell is also Robb's fault because he was the one who sent him back when he was cautioned not to. And Roose wouldn't betray a cause that isn't hopelessly floundering because of his King making horrible decisions. Don't know how Karstark killing children did anything, ordering his men away did though

Roose and the Freys and others would look for any opportunity to Red Wedding Robb, with Jeyne or without her.

Not according to the author

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions1

Q: We know that Roose Bolton had already taken Walda Frey to wife before Robb married Jeyne Westerling. Does this then mean that Walder Frey had already planned to ally himself with Bolton to murder Robb before Robb's marriage betrayal, or was his anger towards Robb and his reasoning towards his own family as to why Robb had to be killed more than just a pretext, and the genuine reason for the Red Wedding?

A: "What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

All things considered, I am PROUD of Robb for protecting the honor of his love. And I don't hold that decision against him.

Robb captured Jaime and was undefeated on the battlefield. With the devastating mistakes made by those around him, I'm not naive enough to place the sole blame on the North's problems on Robb's decision to marry Jeyne

What about the honor of the Freys?

The entire point GRRM makes here is being "undefeated on the battlefield" is meaningless in the face of political and strategic blundering. And you really should hold incredibly poor decisions against characters, especially if they get them and thousands of people killed

Just taking away responsibilty from characters you like is not fair at all. The majority of the North's current problems are his fault

[Trigger Warning]

If the Frey's had simply declared for the Lannisters openly it would have still been a massive deal and potential game changer.

[Robb_Warged]

Catelyn giving away Jaime lost the Karstarks and that's about it. It was relatively minor in the grand scheme of things anyways because it was already over by that point. Edmure didn't fumble anything at all, Robb gave poor orders and it's his fault alone. Theon taking Winterfell is also Robb's fault because he was the one who sent him back when he was cautioned not to. And Roose wouldn't betray a cause that isn't hopelessly floundering because of his King making horrible decisions. Don't know how Karstark killing children did anything, ordering his men away did though

Not according to the author

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions1

What about the honor of the Freys?

The entire point GRRM makes here is being "undefeated on the battlefield" is meaningless in the face of political and strategic blundering. And you really should hold incredibly poor decisions against characters, especially if they get them and thousands of people killed

Just taking away responsibilty from characters you like is not fair at all. The majority of the North's current problems are his fault

The Freys have no honor to insult. If the RW was in response to the dishonor Robb brought to the Freys, doesn't that mean any sort of slight Robb would have inevitably given the Freys would have lead to some sort of Red Wedding? There is no pleasing the Freys is what I'm getting at. Any house whose response is the RW isn't a house you can trust or count on

The RW reeks of building up an immense grudge against someone and looking for the slightest opening to unleash that overreaction to the person you begrudge.

And The Boltons were going to inevitably make a play for getting rid of Robb.

[Trigger Warning]

The Freys have no honor to insult. Roose is one of the key villains in the series and was inevitably going to betray Robb. If the RW was in response to the dishonor Robb brought to the Freys, doesn't that mean any sort of slight Robb would have inevitably given the Freys would have lead to some sort of Red Wedding? There is no pleasing the Freys is what I'm getting at. Any house whose response is the RW isn't a house you can trust or count on

No because it was a huge insult, he spat in their face for serving him in war. The heir to the Twins died fighting for him and then he just pulls out the cornerstone of feudal alliances, thanks for fighting for me but you can go fuck yourself now.