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I'm proud of Robb for marrying Jeyne. I can't say that was a bad decision.


Robb_Warged

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Yes people do; "The King who lost the North"

Yeah, because he did lose the North. Nobody says that he lost it solely because of this one mistake, otherwise everything would've been peachy, or that it was the one and only reason for the RW.

BTW, how would you feel if at a time of full scale war on your home territory your country's leader throw away 15% of your country's army because of his love life? I personally would be really angry at him, and for a good reason IMO.

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The Freys have no honor to insult. Roose is one of the key villains in the series and was inevitably going to betray Robb. If the RW was in response to the dishonor Robb brought to the Freys, doesn't that mean any sort of slight Robb would have inevitably given the Freys would have lead to some sort of Red Wedding? There is no pleasing the Freys is what I'm getting at. Any house whose response is the RW isn't a house you can trust or count on

True the freys have no honor...... But they have a lot of ambition. Had Robb kept faith and married one of the Frey girls, Lord Walder would have a decedent ruling the North. We hear time and again how the Freys despise other, older houses looking down on them. It's likely that had Robb Married a Frey, the Freys would fight hard to maintain their new status.

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Yeah, because he did lose the North. Nobody says that he lost it solely because of this one mistake, otherwise everything would've been peachy, or that it was the one and only reason for the RW.

BTW, how would you feel if at a time of full scale war on your home territory your country's leader throw away 15% of your country's army because of his love life? I personally would be really angry at him, and for a good reason IMO.

I'd be angry but I'd be angrier at the person who gives away the best insurance you could have in the war; Jaime Lannister and his life

Tywin doesn't give the Boltons or the Freys authority to do anything like the RW while Robb keeps marching a captive Jaime with him and his army

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I'd be angry but I'd be angrier at the person who gives away the best insurance you could have in the war; Jaime Lannister and his life

Tywin doesn't give the Boltons or the Freys authority to do anything like the RW while Robb keeps marching a captive Jaime with him and his army

Why would be angry if it's not a mistake and is a commendable act, as you said at the start?

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One of the major theme of this series, in my opinion, is that sometimes there’s no right thing to do and you have to choose between two different forms of “dishonour”. To Robb, sleeping with Jeyne and not marrying her would be the wrong thing to do, and so would going back on his agreement with the Freys and marrying her.



So really, Robb chose Jeyne’s honour over his own, which is admirable, sure, but the fact is he’s an absolute monarch responsible for millions of people and he turn already tenuous supports into enemies with this decision. As a person, maybe he made the right decision, but as a king? No, sorry. Maybe he would have had trouble living with himself, but that’s a small price to pay for someone in his position.


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Why would be angry if it's not a mistake and is a commendable act, as you said at the start?

WHy would you not address the rest of my post?

Any act can spurn anger or a variety of other emotions even if you see the reasoning for the act. Losing 15% of an army would hurt, I can admit that. Losing the game winning prize, that is essentially a get out of jail free card is much worse than losing a small portion of your army though. Especially when that portion of your army are a depraved lot

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The Freys have no honor to insult. If the RW was in response to the dishonor Robb brought to the Freys, doesn't that mean any sort of slight Robb would have inevitably given the Freys would have lead to some sort of Red Wedding? There is no pleasing the Freys is what I'm getting at. Any house whose response is the RW isn't a house you can trust or count on

The RW reeks of building up an immense grudge against someone and looking for the slightest opening to unleash that overreaction to the person you begrudge.

And The Boltons were going to inevitably make a play for getting rid of Robb.

The Freys, while not really the most loyal people on the planet, were with Robb 100% and died for him. That does give them honor in his cause, and that he didn't care about it makes him the honorless one not them. And no, it is this particular slight, the basis of their support and what feeds into Walder's inferiority complex the most, that is what caused the Red Wedding. Did Walder try to kill Hoster for calling him the Late Lord? And there is pleasing the Freys, it's quite simple really. All Robb had to do was... marry a Frey.

Red Wedding reeks of something Robb could have avoided if he did what he swore to do. It's that simple. And of course Walder would have a grudge against him, if your family died, and your name sullied by someone who lied to you, would you not have a grudge against them?

And Bolton can do as he pleases, the fact is he can't do anything close to what he did if he is all by his lonesome. Robb made it so that he could, so the fault lies ultimately on him

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Because it's deflection which I am not interested in discussing. Whether others made bigger or more costly mistakes is irrelevant in judging Robb's mistake.

I guess it would be a deflection but it probably ought to be mentioned at this stage that Cat's release of Jaime did not facilitate the Red Wedding.

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Because it's deflection which I am not interested in discussing. Whether others made bigger or more costly mistakes is irrelevant in judging Robb's mistake.

They're completely relevant when Robb's mistake is being weighed in as the factor for the Starks losing the North

I guess it would be a deflection but it probably ought to be mentioned at this stage that Cat's release of Jaime did not facilitate the Red Wedding.

I thought Tywin communicated and orchestrated with the Freys the circumstances of the RW. I had no idea Tywin was supportive of Robb's betrayal while Robb had control over the life of his golden son

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I thought Tywin communicated and orchestrated with the Freys the circumstances of the RW. I had no idea Tywin was supportive of Robb's betrayal while Robb had control over the life of his golden son

Tywin likely thought Catelyn and Edmure would wind up as hostages and could be traded for Jaime.

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Robb made a mistake but the Red Wedding was an aberrative event concocted by backstabbers. No one could have predicted that before it was too late. So I think it's very unfair to lay the death of Catelyn and his people on Robb. The blame is on Roose, the Freys and the Westerlings (not all of them) and Tywin. They chose the ugliest way to benefit from Robb's decision.

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I do blame the Frey losing any interest in fighting Robb's war to losing their queen.

Losing her right in the moment in which they were asked to stay with Edmure to fight Tywin Lannister while the whelp was going to remain invictus back home north, fighting some Ironborn.

And without both putting the Frey in a dire strategical situation, with the perspective of facing extintion in Robb's name right in the moment in which he robbed them of their chance to be part of the family of the King in the North Robb made the decision for Walder Frey.

Frey choose to live, and not to die for a man using and abusing his House to his own interests, and letting them down and in peril when he had better things to do, like a couple of hour with a beautiful girl sent in his bed by a Lannister.

A couple of hours that Robb choose to put before his word, before his interest, before the value of hundreds of already dead Frey men, before the future destiny of House Frey. Why the Frey taking actions to avange a wrong and to survive would surprise a northenern? Aren't the northeners proud of their capacity to survive?

Boy, you should have known, you asked it for yourself.
You were even warned: "These men are not your friends, they are your vassals".
You didn't listen.

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Alright. Yeah Robb did people wrong by marrying Jeyne :frown5:




ACTUALLY WAIT A MINUTE




If it's so blatantly clear that the Freys did this in the name of honor, I wonder why they lie about the circumstances of the Red Wedding. Either they were justified, or they weren't justified. If they weren't justified, then I'm sticking with respecting Robb's decision to marry Jeyne


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Idk. Robb really hurt Walder's feelings, and probably broke his daughters heart when Walder sadly had to tell her that Robb had eyes for another.



Lol jk. Idk if it was that much of an error honestly. Given the way the war was going, Walder was going to turn his cloak sooner or later.



Robb and Cat would probably have ended up like Edmure if they went through with the Frey marriage. Better off yes, but not by all that much.


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Alright. Yeah Robb did people wrong by marrying Jeyne :frown5:

ACTUALLY WAIT A MINUTE

If it's so blatantly clear that the Freys did this in the name of honor, I wonder why they lie about the circumstances of the Red Wedding. Either they were justified, or they weren't justified. If they weren't justified, then I'm sticking with respecting Robb's decision to marry Jeyne

Of course they're not justified. They themselves try to spread the story that Robb and his people broke guest right by attacking their hosts. Frey name is mud, and Freys are screwed. The only people who benefit from the RW are the Boltons and the Lannisters.

Anyhow, Robb is doomed. If it's not the RW, it would be something else. Robb's marriage is a good thing in that it leads to the RW, which is incredible, from a reader's pov.

I'm not even sure if Freys would want to be married to the Starks after Blackwater. I'd guess that without Jeyne, Walder Frey would just call off the wedding. Walder wants to marry into a powerful family. After Theon takes WF and Stannis goes down, Starks are on their way down, not good marriage material.

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He loved her. Among love, he chose to marry her to PROTECT HER HONOR (Family, duty, honor.). He died for his choice. I'm proud of him for marrying the woman he loved and for seeking her protection and happiness. Sincere love is hard to come by

Robb will ultimately take the blame for the North becoming a nightmare. That's how the cookie crumbles when you are the leader of anything. But Robb marrying Jeyne was not the total reason the North was lost and everyone knows that.

The Freys and Boltons are nutcases. Robb could have been perfect and his enemies still would have looked for any slight or misstep as an excuse to betray him. Case in point, look at Theon. Robb did him no wrong, Theon was a legitimate friend, and Robb was still betrayed by him. The Freys and Boltons would have eventually betrayed Robb one way or another.

I'm proud of you Robb. Rest in peace.

The wolf in the night.....

This was beautifully said. :cheers:

I can't blame Robb for marrying Jeyne even though I know what the decision cost him and his country (the alliance of the Freys). It was a decision that was rooted deep in Robb's nature, besides, there was no one nearby to teach him that there could be other solutions... It was definitely a bad decision to trust the Freys afterwards though. I wonder at least if it was really so difficult to guess what the Freys would do next - if not Robb, perhaps Catelyn, who was more experienced, or someone like the Blackfish might have guessed it. It would have been better to just face the fact that he had this very dangerous new enemy now - or at least a potential enemy - so he should have been much more careful.

I guess if Robb had married a Frey girl, the Freys would have been loyal to him - at least until his downfall seemed inevitable, in which case one Frey (the Queen-in-the-North) would have been sacrificed and old Frey would have saved the clan by betraying Robb. They would not have been the safest allies one may want.

But even if the Freys had remained perfectly loyal, the Boltons would still have betrayed Robb and they would have wanted to kill him, though not at his wedding perhaps. Marrrying the Frey girl would not have solved all the problems, but I wish Robb had known his people better.

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Can't remember exactly, but wasn't Robb 16 years old? He made a lot of poor decisions. Understandable and a heartbreaking situation. Yes, other people made poor decisions, and stuff was going to happen after Robb went south, or this would have been a forgettable series. I'm not proud of this character for boinking and then marrying honey trap Jeyne, though.

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