I'm proud of Robb for marrying Jeyne. I can't say that was a bad decision.

[Dragon in the North]

The Freys, while not really the most loyal people on the planet, were with Robb 100% and died for him. That does give them honor in his cause, and that he didn't care about it makes him the honorless one not them. And no, it is this particular slight, the basis of their support and what feeds into Walder's inferiority complex the most, that is what caused the Red Wedding. Did Walder try to kill Hoster for calling him the Late Lord? And there is pleasing the Freys, it's quite simple really. All Robb had to do was... marry a Frey.

Red Wedding reeks of something Robb could have avoided if he did what he swore to do. It's that simple. And of course Walder would have a grudge against him, if your family died, and your name sullied by someone who lied to you, would you not have a grudge against them?

f

And Bolton can do as he pleases, the fact is he can't do anything close to what he did if he is all by his lonesome. Robb made it so that he could, so the fault lies ultimately on him

I wouldn't say that. After the Battle of the Blackwater, the Freys were ready to jump ship. "Ser Harys Haigh, who was a Frey on his mother's side, nodded vigorously. 'If Lord Tywin could defeat a seasoned man like Stannis Baratheon, what chance does our boy king have against him.' "

Ser Hosteen: "Someone must have the courage to say it. The war is lost. King Robb must be made to see that."

Roose Bolton: "His Grace has defeated the Lannisters every time he has faced them in battle."

Hosteen Frey: "He has lost the north. He has lost Winterfell. His brothers are dead."

<snip>

Hosteen Frey: "King Robb must make peace with the Lannisters. He must put off his crown and bend the knee, little as he may like it."

This was all before they realized they've been dishonored. Robb's betrayal gave them the perfect opportunity to switch sides and save themselves. If not that, they would have come up with another excuse.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

This was all before they realized they've been dishonored. Robb's betrayal gave them the perfect opportunity to switch sides and save themselves. If not that, they would have come up with another excuse.

They would have been like the Brackens and the other Riverlords who surrendered early trying to get favorable terms. There would have been no Red Wedding though.

Very few Lords are going to fight till the very end and risk losing everything, the same gooes for the Northern Lords. Had Robb got North but continued his war while not making any gains then some of them would switch sides in the act of self preservation.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

He loved her. Among love, he chose to marry her to PROTECT HER HONOR (Family, duty, honor.). He died for his choice. I'm proud of him for marrying the woman he loved and for seeking her protection and happiness. Sincere love is hard to come by

Sincere love? It is never stated that he married her for love. it states that he did it to protect her virtue. Twisting that to be a sincere love that is hard to come by is fabrication. Their relationship grows AFTER they marry. However, as a king, marrying for virtue or love wasn't an option especially when he was already betrothed to a political allied family. This is where he makes his mistakes. This is what he does wrong. Wanting to protect Jeyne is indeed honorable but as others have mentioned, he could have married her to someone else. What probably drove his actions away from that is seeing first hand how bastards are treated.

Even Martin said the Red Wedding was about honor for the Freys, a topic they'd been focused on for years now.

[Robb_Warged]

Sincere love? It is never stated that he married her for love. it states that he did it to protect her virtue. Twisting that to be a sincere love that is hard to come by is fabrication. Their relationship grows AFTER they marry. However, as a king, marrying for virtue or love wasn't an option especially when he was already betrothed to a political allied family. This is where he makes his mistakes. This is what he does wrong. Wanting to protect Jeyne is indeed honorable but as others have mentioned, he could have married her to someone else. What probably drove his actions away from that is seeing first hand how bastards are treated.

Even Martin said the Red Wedding was about honor for the Freys, a topic they'd been focused on for years now.

I think virtue matters most when love is present. Jeyne proclaims she loved Robb during her time in AFFC. I haven't read the earlier books for a while so I don't remember a lot of what Robb said concerning Jeyne

I don't think he'd break his vow to the Frey's solely for Jeyne's honor. I think the action, understanding the consequences, supports that Robb loved Jeyne and the love magnified the utter importance of protecting her honor

[Roose on the Loose]

Those of you who say that Robb would have lost anyway are right, but not for the reasons given. House Stark used no espionage, while House Lannister made extensive use of espionage. So it was machetes vs machine guns.

That is particularly relevant to this thread because the Robb-Jeyne wedding was Tywin's primary play against Robb. Tywin knew that Sybill dealt in love potions. Before Robb arrived on her door, Tywin promised her the Castemere lands if she would pimp her daughter in the precise way that she did.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I think virtue matters most when love is present. Jeyne proclaims she loved Robb during her time in AFFC. I haven't read the earlier books for a while so I don't remember a lot of what Robb said concerning Jeyne

I don't think he'd break his vow to the Frey's solely for Jeyne's honor. I think the action, understanding the consequences, supports that Robb loved Jeyne and the love magnified the utter importance of protecting her honor

Yes, it seem you haven't remembered. Here is him introducing her:

Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of ... of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon." He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers' names. "That night, she ... she comforted me, Mother."

Catelyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling had offered her son. "And you wed her the next day."

He looked her in the eyes, proud and miserable all at once. "It was the only honorable thing to do. She's gentle and sweet, Mother, she will make me a good wife."

Proud and miserable. Nothing of love. Just proud of doing what he thinks was honorable. He marries her the day after he sleeps with her. Even if the text had stated love, do you really think that is anything other than lust? Even infatuation takes more than a single night. But the text does not state love. Just honor and he's miserable about it.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Frey power- 4000 men.

Westerling power- 5-7 men.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Robb marrying Jeyne was the final nail in his coffin. It's not the sole reason he was defeated, but it's the main reason his defeat was so utterly devastating. Without the Red Wedding, he could have survived and at least driven the Ironborn from the North

No, the Freys were not "nutcases" looking for any excuse to betray Robb. Lord Walder was sincerely furious about the broken pact, and arranged the Red Wedding primarily to avenge his honor. Roose is a different story, but his cold-blooded opportunism was greatly helped by Robb's stupidity in marrying Jeyne

[Ramsay Gimp]

I don't think he'd break his vow to the Frey's solely for Jeyne's honor. I think the action, understanding the consequences, supports that Robb loved Jeyne and the love magnified the utter importance of protecting her honor

I think you're letting the show influence your interpretation of the books. HBO Robb chose "love" over duty, book Robb chose "honor" over duty

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Wan't the Westerling power 50?

Not that it's that impressive but still...

... Yes...

My zeroes musn't have worked...

Thanks :P

Frey 4000>Westerling 50 irregardless.

[Le Cygne]

I think virtue matters most when love is present. Jeyne proclaims she loved Robb during her time in AFFC. I haven't read the earlier books for a while so I don't remember a lot of what Robb said concerning Jeyne

I don't think he'd break his vow to the Frey's solely for Jeyne's honor. I think the action, understanding the consequences, supports that Robb loved Jeyne and the love magnified the utter importance of protecting her honor

I think he loved her, and I see your point about honor. But it wasn't a smart move, if he wanted to protect her. Sometimes you have to do things in a roundabout way.

[Tiliana]

I wouldn't say that. After the Battle of the Blackwater, the Freys were ready to jump ship. "Ser Harys Haigh, who was a Frey on his mother's side, nodded vigorously. 'If Lord Tywin could defeat a seasoned man like Stannis Baratheon, what chance does our boy king have against him.' "

Ser Hosteen: "Someone must have the courage to say it. The war is lost. King Robb must be made to see that."

Roose Bolton: "His Grace has defeated the Lannisters every time he has faced them in battle."

Hosteen Frey: "He has lost the north. He has lost Winterfell. His brothers are dead."

<snip>

Hosteen Frey: "King Robb must make peace with the Lannisters. He must put off his crown and bend the knee, little as he may like it."

This was all before they realized they've been dishonored. Robb's betrayal gave them the perfect opportunity to switch sides and save themselves. If not that, they would have come up with another excuse.

I do, and the author as well, agrees that they would have disentangled themselves from a losing cause but in a much less bloody fashion

However, Robb does not know that at all, and at the point he broke his vow they were nothing but loyal to him. He had no justification to do what he did

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

How can't you say marring her wasn't a bad decision? Just look at what marrying her lead too... It's he's 2nd biggest mistake imo.

[Lee-Sensei]

It was a nice thing to do, but it was one of Robbs biggest screw ups.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Didn't Westerlings also died in the Red Wedding? At least one did (allegedly). If more had been with Robb, the Freys wouldn't have minded that they were in the conspiracy, tbh. So, he also put his wife's family in danger...

I'm sure Ned would be proud... he's patting him on the back now in the Beyond, where he received him with a shake of his head.

"Gallant Fool", Hoster was heard saying.

The thing is, if Jeyne was also willing participant in that deadly fuck of doom, then wouldn't be a bit... erm... sexist to imply that Robb should be worrying about her virginity? Like, when it's discussed the sex between Ashara and her lover. Robb didn't force her, why then should be paid for something they were both together? Jeyne could have said no, right?.

(I actually don't share this. At least in this world, well, there is no condoms. And men aren't beasts with no self-control. They can also say "no" if they don't want to be held responsible for what they do. Parents (some of them) get very mad about their daughters being dishonoured).

[Dragon in the North]

I do, and the author as well, agrees that they would have disentangled themselves from a losing cause but in a much less bloody fashion

However, Robb does not know that at all, and at the point he broke his vow they were nothing but loyal to him. He had no justification to do what he did

I agree that the Red Wedding wouldn't have happened if Robb hadn't married Jeyne, but I see comments all the time saying that the Freys have shown Robb nothing but loyalty. I was just pointing out that the Freys probably would have broken their marriage pact as well if Robb hadn't broken it first.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I agree that the Red Wedding wouldn't have happened if Robb hadn't married Jeyne, but I see comments all the time saying that the Freys have shown Robb nothing but loyalty. I was just pointing out that the Freys probably would have broken their marriage pact as well if Robb hadn't broken it first.

The Freys at that point had shown nothing but loyalty. Every Northen victory had Frey help in the battlefield.

Walder had invested a lot of time and effort into raising Stevron to be a good heir, by all accounts a good man, and he died on campaign for Robb. His Great Grandson, Tion, was killed while he was a prisoner of Robbs.

The Freys may have switched sides, but they were extremely loyal up until Robb broke his promise after Freys had died for him.

[Lord Lannister]

Robb screwed up quite literally. Sleeping with Jeyne Westerling in a moment of weakness was a huge mistake. He did the "right" thing afterward and married her. However that is rather selfish of him in one manner. As a lord and especially a king, marring for love, putting your own emotions ahead of your own people is a luxury you cannot afford if you wish to be a good ruler.

Did Walder Frey have every right to be angry? Yes. Did he have every right to be difficult and impose every sanction and even insult to Robb that he did. Yes. Had Walder Frey left it at that, made Robb apologize, and settled for the wedding with Robb's uncle, all would've been well. But Walder Frey was always out for himself and went to the most extreme means available to avenge the "slights" he suffered from the Tullys and Starks. The onus of guilt is on him for that, but that doesn't vindicate Robb, even if he didn't deserve to be murdered. Had Robb honored his vow, the Red Wedding would've never happened. Even Walder Frey would've seen the advantage of being the father or grandfather of the Queen of the North.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The Freys at that point had shown nothing but loyalty. Every Northen victory had Frey help in the battlefield.

Not really. I don't remember any more riverlords asking marriage alliances to call the banners. Robb was as much a Tully as a Stark, he didn't have to promise Walder anything to let them cross.

He delayed joining the Rebellion. Then, he once more did it when Edmure called his banners. It was until Cat negotiated a marriage and his grandchildren being squires and fostered in Winterfell that the Frey joined. That's not being loyal. It has a lot of names, but not loyalty.

The thing is that, yes, Robb did very wrong on breaking his promise, but such promise didn't need to exist in the first place.

[Sullen]

Not really. I don't remember any more riverlords asking marriage alliances to call the banners. Robb was as much a Tully as a Stark, he didn't have to promise Walder anything to let them cross.

*insert Walder's rant about lords, kings, oaths, and duty here*