I'm proud of Robb for marrying Jeyne. I can't say that was a bad decision.

[Attitude]

He loved her. Among love, he chose to marry her to PROTECT HER HONOR (Family, duty, honor.). He died for his choice. I'm proud of him for marrying the woman he loved and for seeking her protection and happiness. Sincere love is hard to come by

Robb will ultimately take the blame for the North becoming a nightmare. That's how the cookie crumbles when you are the leader of anything. But Robb marrying Jeyne was not the total reason the North was lost and everyone knows that.

The Freys and Boltons are nutcases. Robb could have been perfect and his enemies still would have looked for any slight or misstep as an excuse to betray him. Case in point, look at Theon. Robb did him no wrong, Theon was a legitimate friend, and Robb was still betrayed by him. The Freys and Boltons would have eventually betrayed Robb one way or another.

I'm proud of you Robb. Rest in peace.

The wolf in the night.....

1. He didn't protect his familty

2. He didn't fullfil his duty to protect his men (instead because of his actions they got slaughtered.

3. He didn't protect his honor nor his family's. Yes he protected hers, but he was the KotN.

The reasons why Robb's arc was so good, was because of the RW. Catelyn siad; you're safe now, because you shared their bread and salt. This, when you look back to it, is, of course, a big hint for the happening. But just because of this reason and many more, it feels so bad, which makes it so great. When I read it, I was horrified. But looking back, it was (one of the) best chapters of the book. (The purple wedding was nice too, of couse).

[Merlmaid]

I think being proud of his decision is a bit much but I absolutely agree that it's unfair how Robb usually gets all the blame for the downfall of the north when there were so many other incidents that weakened their cause.

[Lord Lannister]

I think being proud of his decision is a bit much but I absolutely agree that it's unfair how Robb usually gets all the blame for the downfall of the north when there were so many other incidents that weakened their cause.

The North was the proverbial underdog and likely would've lost anyways given the sheer odds arrayed against them. But Robb made several huge blunders that definitely accelerated their fall.

1) Poor handling of the letter to Balon Greyjoy. He should've had some notion of the culture of the Ironborn and that offering to "give" them something was an insult. It might not have changed Balon's plans to attack, but it definitely cemented them. Inviting Balon to stand with Robb and take his crown from the Lannisters just as Robb did may well have produced a positive effect.

2) Poor handling of Jaime Lannister and the rest of his prisoners. Better security, such as sending them to Moat Cailin would've solved a lot of problems. Catelyn wouldn't be able to spring Jaime, which was the source of all his problems with the Karstarks. Furthermore keeping the other Lannister prisoners poorly secured caused him problems later on.

3) Breaking his promise to Walder Frey. This the big one easily as this thread discussed. I doubt very much Walder Frey would've betrayed Robb if his daughter/granddaughter was Queen of the North and Trident. Sleeping with Jeyne in a moment of weakness could be understood. But putting her honor over the kingdom's? Lords and kings don't have the luxury of marrying for love and to presume to do so, in spite of prior commitments is rather selfish.

Roose Bolton probably would've stayed loyal, at least longer than he did, not having the oppurtunity of the Red Wedding to betray Robb. He always seems the type that's going to land on his feet so to say. Robb has a lot going for him, he was one of my favorite characters, but he screwed up in a lot of places too. Just like Ned got eaten alive at King's Landing, Robb was even more out of his scope in the political arena.

[Dragon in the North]

The North was the proverbial underdog and likely would've lost anyways given the sheer odds arrayed against them. But Robb made several huge blunders that definitely accelerated their fall.

1) Poor handling of the letter to Balon Greyjoy. He should've had some notion of the culture of the Ironborn and that offering to "give" them something was an insult. It might not have changed Balon's plans to attack, but it definitely cemented them. Inviting Balon to stand with Robb and take his crown from the Lannisters just as Robb did may well have produced a positive effect.

2) Poor handling of Jaime Lannister and the rest of his prisoners. Better security, such as sending them to Moat Cailin would've solved a lot of problems. Catelyn wouldn't be able to spring Jaime, which was the source of all his problems with the Karstarks. Furthermore keeping the other Lannister prisoners poorly secured caused him problems later on.

3) Breaking his promise to Walder Frey. This the big one easily as this thread discussed. I doubt very much Walder Frey would've betrayed Robb if his daughter/granddaughter was Queen of the North and Trident. Sleeping with Jeyne in a moment of weakness could be understood. But putting her honor over the kingdom's? Lords and kings don't have the luxury of marrying for love and to presume to do so, in spite of prior commitments is rather selfish.

Roose Bolton probably would've stayed loyal, at least longer than he did, not having the oppurtunity of the Red Wedding to betray Robb. He always seems the type that's going to land on his feet so to say. Robb has a lot going for him, he was one of my favorite characters, but he screwed up in a lot of places too. Just like Ned got eaten alive at King's Landing, Robb was even more out of his scope in the political arena.

I only agree with number 3. Balon Greyjoy was never going to ally with Robb Stark. There's too much bad blood between the Starks and Greyjoys. And Jaime was safe inside Riverrun. The rescue attempt conducted by Tyrion Lannister failed. No one could have expected Catelyn would betray Robb.

[Annara Snow]

What Robb really should have done: not married anyone during the war (why the haste to marry Jeyne? She was not pregnant), remained officially betrothed to a Frey during the war, and waited until war was over and he had no particular need of Walder Frey anymore to screw him over then and marry Jeyne/whoever he wanted.

[Attitude]

What Robb really should have done: not married anyone during the war (why the haste to marry Jeyne? She was not pregnant), remained officially betrothed to a Frey during the war, and waited until war was over and he had no particular need of Walder Frey anymore to screw him over then and marry Jeyne/whoever he wanted.

Hehe, this wouldn't be very nice, but it would've been a better solution.

1) Poor handling of the letter to Balon Greyjoy. He should've had some notion of the culture of the Ironborn and that offering to "give" them something was an insult. It might not have changed Balon's plans to attack, but it definitely cemented them. Inviting Balon to stand with Robb and take his crown from the Lannisters just as Robb did may well have produced a positive effect.

2) Poor handling of Jaime Lannister and the rest of his prisoners. Better security, such as sending them to Moat Cailin would've solved a lot of problems. Catelyn wouldn't be able to spring Jaime, which was the source of all his problems with the Karstarks. Furthermore keeping the other Lannister prisoners poorly secured caused him problems later on.

3) Breaking his promise to Walder Frey. This the big one easily as this thread discussed. I doubt very much Walder Frey would've betrayed Robb if his daughter/granddaughter was Queen of the North and Trident. Sleeping with Jeyne in a moment of weakness could be understood. But putting her honor over the kingdom's? Lords and kings don't have the luxury of marrying for love and to presume to do so, in spite of prior commitments is rather selfish.

Agreed on all.

1) Don't even try it. I mean, your father kidnapped Theon & he is ironborn? What do you think he will do?

2) Yeah, put that guy in a cell alone with 2 of your most loyal guards next to it and who only listen to you and not Cat.

3) Of course stupid, but it was mostly stupid because it was after 1) & 2)

- Would've stopped/delayed the ironborn attack most likely.

- Still had a loyal crew because you didn't have to kill Rickard Karstark.

- Didn't get you and your men killed.

Conclusion: He was a political idiot.

[INCBlackbird]

RObb made a lot of stupid decisions and marrying Jeyne was definitly one of them. I think that was mostly Ned influence, and Ned influence on political matters is bad.

what happened with Theon was on both Robb and Theon. it was done the moment he was sent back to pyke cause at that point Theon couldn't get out anymore. they made that decision together as the two naive boys that they were. either way, Theon was indeed a legitimate friend but he had no choice in "betraying" Robb. and it hurt him just as much as it hurt Robb.

that being said, other characters made stupid decisions too and in many cases Robb had to chose between two bad choices (dishonoring jeyne/dishonoring himself, killing Karstark to show that you don't disobey your king, so no one else tries/not killing him and keeping your army but appearing weak) and Robb was 16 at the time (did I get the age right?) and increadably naive, which is very understandable at his age combined with having Ned as a father and never having to worry about the complexity of life like Jon and Theon (not that Theon did, he was too focussed on building his own fake identity). in conclusion I think it's unfair to blame it on him, I don't blame Ned for his own death, I don't blame Theon for what ramsay did to him. the only ones that should be blamed are the ones who did the deed. the ones who did it on purpose: Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey and Roose Bolton

[Robb_Warged]

You guys are making great points. You know what? My opinion has changed. He had a duty that he let down. Some times when you love someone but it just can't work out, you need to let them go, and trust another lover will be able to take care of her someday. He shouldn't have slept with her if the guilt of doing that was going to pressure him to marry her.

Robb was wrong. Where was Robb's love for Sansa? She is in the clutches of a hellish king, Robb needed to rescue her from that. He never should have done a thing to damage his forces as he headed South.

I WAS WRONG. Love is a powerful feeling but sometimes if you really love someone and you know things can't work right between you two, you need to love that person enough to let them go and not make a mistake.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What Robb really should have done: not married anyone during the war (why the haste to marry Jeyne? She was not pregnant),

I think that was Robb's main concern, which was also stupid. He only needed to wait for one month to find out. :dunno:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

He married her because he f@@ked her not because he loved her. I am not sure that he got any idea about what love is.

If he was the only one who had died because of this marriage then no one would had a problem with it. But he caused the death of at least hundreds of people. No his actions have no excuse at all.

[Drogon'sWrath]

I just don't get what I'm supposed to say in place of what I said in the OP. Robb shouldn't have married Jeyne? He loved her....

Except he didn't marry her for love. He married her to protect her honer. I do think he came to love her as time went on, but the actual marriage wasn't out of love. But even if it was for love, I would have to disagree with you. Robb marrying Jeyne was a tipping point. Sure, some of the Freys were starting to have second thoughts, but as a unit they were still with Robb. The marriage is what threw them over the edge. It's the immediate cause for their betrayal.

Now, this obviously doesn't justify the Red Wedding. Walder Frey answered a slight with a massacre.

The thing is, Robb put the honor and needs of one person over the honor and needs of thousands. A king doing that is objectively wrong. Whether or not you like the Freys, they were an important part of his army, and he lost them with no chance of mending the relationship. Walder Frey's heir died for Robb's cause, and Robb repaid him by breaking his vow. I don't like Walder Frey as much as the next guy, but he had every right to feel insulted. He had no right to pull the Red Wedding, but that's a different story.

Now, I'm not saying marrying Jeyne caused the downfall of the North. It was a factor, but it wasn't the cause. It was a tipping point, the straw that broke the camel's back. It was the immediate cause of the Freys leaving. The Freys leave, Roose sees weakness, and the Boltons leave. But, Bolton and Frey might have left anyway. Roose was obviously keeping his options open from the very beginning. Still, I think he would have had a shot at keeping them around had he won back the North like he planned to do after Edmure's wedding, but unfortunately Walder and Roose had already made their decision. Their decision to betray Robb could have been prolonged and possibly prevented had he not married Jeyne.

[Tywin Manderly]

Robb only needed to wait for a month. If she was with child, marry her. If she didn't, marry her to Edmure.

Yes, it sounds cold, but he was a King. A King can't think with his heart but his brain, and definitely not with his penis. Look how that ended up for Aegon IV and Aegon V.

Marry Jeyne off to one of the Umbers, Edmure is above her paygrade.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Hehe, this wouldn't be very nice, but it would've been a better solution.

Agreed on all.

1) Don't even try it. I mean, your father kidnapped Theon & he is ironborn? What do you think he will do?

2) Yeah, put that guy in a cell alone with 2 of your most loyal guards next to it and who only listen to you and not Cat.

3) Of course stupid, but it was mostly stupid because it was after 1) & 2)

- Would've stopped/delayed the ironborn attack most likely.

- Still had a loyal crew because you didn't have to kill Rickard Karstark.

- Didn't get you and your men killed.

Conclusion: He was a political idiot.

There was no reason for anyone to assume Cat would be a concern to security. It was an impulsive reaction to the news of Bran and Rickon. I also don't think a 16 year old can be called a political anything except "trainee". He was too green to be an idiot. He simply reacted as impulsively as Cat, a mature, experienced adult. Cat wanted to save her daughters more than keep a prisoner of war. Robb wanted to save a girl's honor more than keep his pledge to marry.

You guys are making great points. You know what? My opinion has changed. He had a duty that he let down. Some times when you love someone but it just can't work out, you need to let them go, and trust another lover will be able to take care of her someday. He shouldn't have slept with her if the guilt of doing that was going to pressure him to marry her.

Robb was wrong. Where was Robb's love for Sansa? She is in the clutches of a hellish king, Robb needed to rescue her from that. He never should have done a thing to damage his forces as he headed South.

I WAS WRONG. Love is a powerful feeling but sometimes if you really love someone and you know things can't work right between you two, you need to love that person enough to let them go and not make a mistake.

The problem with this is the same as with the OP - it presumes the 21st notion of romantic love is a viable reason for an act n medieval Westeros. It isn't. it's not a good argument to say love is a powerful feeling and he should just act on it in Westeros. That's been shown over and over again, especially for the nobility. As a king, it really didn't matter what Robb felt for Jeyne. He wasn't wrong because "his love" wasn't enough to make things work out with Jeyne. Things were progressing rather well between him and Jeyne, from what we're shown in the text. He was wrong because he let his feeling of protecting Jeyne's honor (there is very little, if anything, to point to him being in love with him after she nursed him back to health over the course of a week in the text) cloud his judgement.

As someone said earlier, he probably thinks he's being like his father and behaving honorably and also trying to avoid creating another Jon-the-bastard situation but he fails to understand that his father DID do his duty. He married as he was supposed to, not necessarily as he wished, and he took care of his "son". Robb did not follow his father's example and he did not do his duty.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Except he didn't marry her for love. He married her to protect her honer. I do think he came to love her as time went on, but the actual marriage wasn't out of love.

This. He doesn't ever say he loves her. Love was just not a factor. It was always about honor. Robb chose her honor over his own and sadly, his honor had a much steeper price than a stained virtue.

[Morgul-Blade]

This was the most boneheaded move in the entire series, thus far. I can say that it was a TERRIBLE decision.

[David Selig]

This. He doesn't ever say he loves her. Love was just not a factor.

Actually he does.

“I took her castle and she took my heart.”

You freed him without my knowledge or consent … but what you did, I know you did for love. For Arya and Sansa, and out of grief for Bran and Rickon. Love’s not always wise, I’ve learned. It can lead us to great folly, but we follow our hearts … wherever they take us. Don’t we, Mother?”

Is that what I did? “If my heart led me into folly, I would gladly make whatever amends I can to Lord Karstark and yourself.”

Lord Rickard’s face was implacable. “Will your amends warm Torrhen and Eddard in the cold graves where the Kingslayer laid them?” He shouldered between the Greatjon and Maege Mormont and left the hall.

Robb made no move to detain him. “Forgive him, Mother.”

“If you will forgive me.”

“I have. I know what it is to love so greatly you can think of nothing else.”

His apology to the Frey women at the RW:

"What I did was not done to slight you, but because I loved another."

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Actually he does.

I stand corrected. Robb wasn't trying to be like his father at all. He was just a horny teenager. This makes the switch to Talisa and that arc a great deal clearer. Thanks.

It was a bad decision by a young boy and not a young man trying to be honorable. Oh Robb. :frown5:

[David Selig]

I stand corrected. Robb wasn't trying to be like his father at all. He was just a horny teenager. This makes the switch to Talisa and that arc a great deal clearer. Thanks.

It was a bad decision by a young boy and not a young man trying to be honorable. Oh Robb. :frown5:

Both choices were honorable in different ways. But one of the honorable choices looked so much more pleasant on a personal level and Robb was only 16, so...

[The_lost_arryn19]

While I definitely appreciate the romanticism, bravery and his personal distinction to what he thought was right it was a still a very bad decision. The marriage directly led to his death and not marrying her would have at least prolonged his life or at the least made it more difficult for people to betray him. He could be a good king to his people and not marry for love or he can marry for love and do what kings who do that do best; destroy everyone who says something against you. None of which he was willing to do.

[Sword of the Morgan]

If getting yourself, your mother and thousands of others killed isn't a mistake, what is a mistake in your book then?

And really even without the Red Wedding it's incredibly irresponsible. You are a king in the middle of a vicious war, your enemies outnumber you, yet you basically throw away something like 15% of your army in order to marry the hot girl.

hahaha...I loved Robb but it's pretty hard to argue with this