The Riverlands Web V.4

[Booknerd2]

The OP will always be a work in progress as characters, objects, places, post questions, and stuff is updated.

Here is the link to The Riverlands Web V.1 :http://asoiaf.wester...riverlands-web/

The Riverlands Web V.2: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v2/

The Riverlands Web V.3 http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/120123-the-riverlands-web-v3/

The Riverlands Web: Or How Some People Can’t Shake a Connection if They Tried.

This was started because it branched out of another thread and took on a life of its own. Many had thoughts regarding some characters and how far away they were from each other, and from the last two books we see that is now narrowing. The overlap or just missing each other that has been occurring will go somewhere eventually. In some cases, some theories were more likely than others. Many have debated what I called to myself the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon or Starks. I dabbled here and there on threads, but always wished it would be in one place with everything in front. Arcs are narrowing and have or are about to intersect. We started to only brush the surface and took a look. So we wanted to delve into situations/connections and interpretations of what they mean and could mean, and give it a place of its own.

Here are some we have discussed, there are certainly more: Mini-fact, organizer, profiles...

Primary Tier Characters: Common thread: All in Riverlands area, and all looking for Sansa and Arya.

Brienne –of Tarth. Former Rainbow Guard member of Renly. Associated with Sapphires. Knew Catelyn, met Gendry and knows he’s Roberts’s son of her own accord, and I don’t need to elaborate on what she is currently doing for LS and BWB. We know her Jaime situation and she has fetched him. She is currently looking for Sansa and Arya Stark. She did not realize it but met Sandor on the QI. EB knows what her current mission is, he might have told Sandor. Sandor was standing around in his Novice Brother Halloween costume and surely heard something. Knows Thoros. Current Status: With Jaime

Sandor – No ser. House Clegane. Former bodyguard to King Joffrey. KG. Familiar with Sansa and Arya Stark. Run-in with BWB, LS thinks he was the last person to see Arya. Sandor knows Jaime from KL and earlier than that. Currently with EB (or maybe not?) Knows Thoros. Saw Gendry with Arya. Knows Catelyn Stark was the girls mother. Knowledge of LS through EB???Unknown and Speculative. Was there when Brienne showed up to QI. Reaction presently unknown. News he has gathered or input from EB unknown. Current Status: QI or Maybe not

Gendry – Ser of the Hollow Hill - Knighted by Dondarrion. Bastard son of King Robert. Part Targ and Estermont. Former blacksmith's apprentice. Familiar with Arya – now knows Brienne – at orphanage assisting with looking for Arya/ Sansa - member of BWB. Saw Sandor take Arya. Met Ned, and is working with LS. Knows Thoros. Current Status: with LS, Thoros, BWB

Lady Stoneheart (Catelyn Tully Stark) – AKA - Mother Merciless, The Hangwoman, LS for posts, - House Tully/Stark/BWB - Looking for Sansa and Arya. Knows Gendry. Reaction unknown. Most likely knows he was with Arya.Thinks Sandor took Arya. Working with BWB and familiar with Brienne and Jaime as Catelyn and now LS (again we know they are headed toward her, so no need to elaborate). Knows Thoros. Current Status: WIth BWB, Gendry, Thoros, etc.

Brynden - AKA Blackfish - House Tully - Uncle and Great Uncle of LS, Arya, & Sansa. Certainly no Jaime fan, a'tall. Whereabouts currently unknown, but last seen escaping from Riverrun. Knows Hound. Current Status: ??? - which translates to: No one has any idea where the hell he is currently.

Jaime -House Lannister - KG - familiar and with Brienne. Knew Catelyn and will possibly soon know LS. Knows Blacksfish. Knows Arya and Sansa and looking for them. Knows Sandor. Knows Thoros. Current Status: with Brienne

Stranger - "Driftwood" - Badass horse of Sandor Clegane - House Clegane - Allegiance to Sandor - No one else can go near him risking personal injury/loss of body parts - ex: ear - hates everyone but Sandor - Knows Sansa and Arya - Knows Jaime -Knows Thoros - Knows Gendry - Knows BWB - Saw Brienne briefly as she walked into his stable (he would say "jail") - hates Sandor's Novice Brother Halloween Costume - wants to keep his "bits" - surely incensed that EB could not come up with a better name than "Driftwood" (makes him sound like a dork) - grateful in a way that his stable stall is not near the others - unable to be gelded - unable to be handled/cared for by anyone but Sandor - Advice: Don't even try! Not looking particularly for Sansa and Arya but will most likely agree to it, if his owner will get a move on already and get him the hell off the QI. Actually, the horse will probably agree to anything at this point for freedom. Current Status: Eye-rolling and attempting to kick the damn stable door down at the QI, or he would say "jail."

Nymeria - AKA BIG NYMS -House Stark - direwolf - one of original 6 in litter - 4 left - only female left of litter - Arya's direwolf - Connection/shared extension of/with Arya - hates the friggin Lannisters, Freys, etc. for many reasons - female alpha - roaming Riverlands - Hates everyone - Knows/hates Jaime - Knew Catelyn - pulled Catelyn as LS out of water/aware of LS to some degree - might have seen Arya/been aware of a presence -More concerned with Arya than Sansa most likely, but…still went in to retrieve LS/Arys's mother - might know Gendry/BWB/Thoros anyone Arya was around ( few reasons it could be or could not be) - rules pack of other male and female wolves -HDWIC - Current Status: Pissed off! Meanwhile in the Riverlands...

Thoros - of Myr, priest of R'hllor, BWB, bromance with Beric, with LS/not happy with how she runs things, Knows Sandor. Knows Stranger. Knows Jaime. Looking for Arya and Sansa. Drinking buddies with King Robert. Known for sword on fire circus trick. Knows Brienne. Knows Gendry….???? we will get back to this. Current Status: With LS, Gendry, BWB

The Late Lord Walder Frey - nonagenarian – the cryptkeeper – extremely fertile – loves the ladies –widower many times over - will acknowledge bastards and is married more times than I can count –Lord of the Crossing – House Frey – rules the Twins – hates slights – can’t marry off multiple children and bastards and now grandchildren and so on – was pledged to Riverrun – called the Late Lord Frey by Hoster Tully – will hesitate to act unless he sees an advantage for himself/his House –he will take care of his progeny - host of the Red Wedding – knew Cat, hopefully will hear of/know LS – knows Jaime – May have heard of the Hound - despises Edmure and Blackfish - comes from a long line of weak chins and weasely features -sided with Lannisters and Boltons and others over Starks and Tullys -broke guest right -his house is now targeted by Lady Stoneheart and BWB. Even Dunc thinks he started out life a real pain in the ass - He has a search for the outlaws responsible for the hangings of kin - The North and many others hate him due to treachery, murders and hostages, and his disavowing guest right. Current Status: At the Twins – most likely hearing that House Frey decreased in number a bit more every few days. Responsible for death of Lady Stark, King Robb Stark, Grey Wind, many other people too, and still has several imprisoned. And really more problems every other day coming his way.

Secondary Tier Characters:

Harwin- House Stark allegiance - son of Hullen, Master of Horse of Winterfell - grew up and worked at Winterfell - stable boy/guard - Knows all members of House Stark very well, including previous generation, Rickard, Lyarra?, Ned, Brandon, Benjen, and Lyanna. Could id any Stark possibly. Used to lead Arya's pony as a child. Looking for Arya and Sansa. Could recently id Arya. BWB. Knows LS, Thoros, Sandor, Gendry, Jaime, other BWB members. Knows Nymeria. Current Status: BWB, and theories about being sent somewhere else.

Tom of Sevenstreams - AKA - Tom O' Sevens, Tom Sevenstrings - BWB. Knows Thoros, Sandor, Jaime, LS, Arya, Gendry. Singer/Lyricist/Musician. Plays woodharp. Hit single "The Floppy Fish." Familiar with House Tully (Edmure, Lysa, Hoster?) might know or know of Brynden. Current Status: Apparently, still in BWB, posing as musician looking for work, has infiltrated Frey camp at Riverrun, where he encountered Jaime. Can update LS on status of Edmure/other intelligence.

Lem Lemoncloak - Lem short for Lemoncloak - Redundant double name - some speculate an alias with more background he is not revealing for some reason - BWB - known for yellow cloak, bad teeth, broken nose not set and healed properly, large, strong man - Knows Thoros, Gendry, Arya, LS, Sandor, Brienne, Pod, Hyle. Currently: Utlizing Sandor's Hound Helm ( Mistaken identity issue? with BWB at the hanging that was halted.)

Anguy- AKA - The Archer - From Dorne - commoner -excellent at archery - Known to blow money on luxuries and girls - BWB - Knows Thoros, Gendry, Arya, LS, Sandor. Knows and turned down offer from Ned Stark to join the Hand's Guard. Current Status: BWB

Septon Meribald- Septon that travels the Riverlands - from the area originally - illiterate - able to memorize religious doctrine of the Seven - lives on random assistance for food and shelter in exchange for carrying out septon duties. Distributes food and goods to poor. Travels with a donkey and a dog named "Dog." Knows Brienne, EB, Pod, Hyle, did run in to Sandor and Stranger on QI. Brings up the "tales" of Nymeria in circulation, but doesn't know who she is. Knows BWB. Current Status: Unknown, But allowed to go about his business by BWB.

Podrick Payne - "Pod" - House Payne - House is sworn to House Lannister - former squire to Tyrion - now accompanying Brienne - Knows Sandor. Saw EB, Sandor, Stranger? Would he know Sandor's horse? Knows Jaime. Looking for Arya and Sansa Stark. Looking for Tyrion. Knows Sansa enough to possibly id her, which would be asset to Brienne. Knows BWB. Knows LS. Knows Gendry. Knows Thoros. Knows Meribald. Current Status: Held for insurance by LS and BWB - almost hung, but reprieved temporarily.

Hyle Hunt- House Hunt - knight - allegiance to House Tarly - Knows Brienne, Pod, BWB, LS, Thoros, Meribald - rocky acquaintance with Brienne to begin with - Saw EB, Sandor, and Stranger - marriage proposal to Brienne was flatly denied - Did offer to fight Jaime in Brienne's place, offer denied. Seems to be looking for Sansa and Arya Stark, really, doing and going wherever Brienne is/does. Issues: may report back to Randyll Tarly. Obviously, knows Brienne is sole heir to Tarth and female, thus why he attempted to propose marriage. Current Status: Held for insurance by LS and BWB - almost hung, but reprieved temporarily.

The Hot Pie - From Flea Bottom, orphan, baker, does not kick people in the balls to death, contrary to what he said, Familiar with Arya and Gendry, Knows BWB, Knows Thoros, Current Status: In Riverlands at Inn of the Kneeling Man - baking the Westeros version of the cronut - Inn named for Arya Stark ancestor, Torrhen, The King Who Knelt.

Elder Brother – name unknown –House ? - former knight – House Targaryen allegiance during Robert’s Rebellion - supposed healing powers – head guy on Quiet Isle – unknown if he suggested the attempted nut-napping of Stranger – no vow of silence currently – appears through his story that he does have things in common with Sandor – did experience a doomed love - acquires news of events outside QI – we are not sure if he speaks with Sandor since their initial conversation we hear about secondhand when he tells Brienne info – tall, shaved head, not sure if veiny, red nose suggests drinking? – knows Brienne, Pod, Hyle, Septon Meribald – Unknown if he exchanges news with Meribald – knows of Saltpans – possible harboring of Sandor, yet he tells Brienne he is dead and constructed a decoy grave and laid the Hound Helm there before it was taken by Rorge – he knows Sandor travelled with the true Arya and shares this with Brienne – knows of Arya and Sansa – possibly knows or heard of other Webbers such as Jaime and Blackfish – does he know of BWB, the orphanage? Is he harboring other individuals? Current Status: On the Quiet Isle

Tertiary Tier Characters: Coming soon...

Edric Dayne - Ned - House Dayne – Lord/heir of Starfall – Dorne – was squire to Beric Dondarrion/ his almost uncle in-law. Does not possess Dawn…yet? Only living Dayne relative known is Aunt Allyria of the very long engagement that was not to be. Former member of BWB that defected with some members after Beric died and LS took over. Milk-brothers with Jon Snow, nursed by Wylla. Knows Sandor and Stranger, Jaime, LS, and the entire BWB. Oh….Gendry certainly knows who he is. He knows Arya. Appears to have knowledge of Starks. Knows Sansa. Current Status: Whereabouts Unknown – no known objectives that are clear at the moment.

Edmure Tully – House Tully heir – Riverrun – mocked by Tom O’s Sevens in song, “the floppy fish” -Knows Marq Piper – Fought and led men against battles with Lannisters and Gregor’s Riverlands raids – Tytos Blackwood rescues him – Known for his kind heart and sheltering and concern for the small folk at Riverrun even at an expense – Both Robb and Blackfish are upset with him for disrupting plans they had – In Robb’s place he marries a Frey girl, Roslin - At his bedding, the Red Wedding occurs and he later hears of the deaths - Walder Frey, his father-in-law takes him prisoner, and Riverrun is later besieiged – Blackfish does not budge as Edmure is threatened with hanging at a constructed gallows - The siege is lifted when Jaime arrives and amongst further negotiations - Edmure is given a choice: surrender Riverrun and his lordship and he will be moved to Casterly Rock where his wife will meet him upon giving birth - A tidy keep will be granted when their child comes of age - Any Riverrun defenders would lose their arms but would not be taken prisoner. Or, the castle and defenders would be attacked and both destroyed, with his baby reaching him “by catapult.” Edmure is allowed to bathe and to the tune “The Rains of Castamere.” Edmure delays the surrender to allow Blackfish to bounce. He is related to Catelyn/LS and Blackfish. Does not know what happened to his sister as LS. Knows the Hound. Knows BWB in general. Knows Tom only as a singer he dislikes. Knows the Stark children but not by sight. Oh, he knows Jaime all right. Current Status: Held by the Lannisters as a prisoner heading for the Westerlands and Casterly Rock.

Places in the Riverlands: Coming Soon...

The Inn at the Crossroads -

Peach/Stoney Sept -

The Twins - The Crossing – House Frey – 2 identical castles linked by a bridge and consisting of the Water Tower – at the Trident’s Green Fork – Fees are charged to pass – at a high price – source of Frey wealth – near route that goes from Riverlands north to Winterfell – it is heavily fortified. Site of Catelyn Stark’s meeting with Lord Frey in negotiations for Robb. Roose Bolton was married and his host stopped there. Also, it was the site of the Red Wedding massacre. Current Status: Lord Frey and many of his relatives, are lying in wait as word of Frey deaths emerge sporadically, and other news that affects the House would reach Lord Walder. Surely, the Late Lord Frey Death Watch is on amongst his relatives. Lady Roslin Frey Tully awaits the birth of her baby as well.

Riverrun – House Tully – allegiance to House Stark - Red Fork/Tumblestones – three-sided castle – stand-out feature is flooding a moat that can encircle the entire castle – excellent for sieges – Littlefinger was fostered here – site of double wedding of Ned Stark/Catelyn Tully and Jon Arryn/Lysa Stark – Robb Stark was born here – Riverrun has had its share of sieges – and eventually the Tullys are stripped of their ancestral home when Riverrun is given to Emmon Frey of the infamous “piece of paper.” It is surrenedered by Edmure but not before the Blackfish swims off. Current Status: in the possession of Emmon Frey and Genna Lannister Frey.

More to come...

Objects and Miscellaneous Coming soon...

Dog - a massive, shaggy dog named Dog – hangs out with Septon Meribald and protects him – has tussled with wolves (Big Nyms lost a few minions, I suppose) – Meribald believes he is a dog that hasn’t given his name yet, which also reflects the Hound keeping his identity quiet with help from EB – He is friendly unless you mess with him/Meribald – Meribald treats him well and keeps him fed – He will bark back if spoken too seemingly in answer – he sniffs the Gravedigger and his ear is scratched – at the Inn he sniffs out the blood from the Hound/Arya pub brawl on the floor that has seeped in the wood – The brothers have given bones to Dog before, telling us it is not his first visit with Meribald there. Current Status: unknown but assumed alive and possibly left with Meribald – Brienne does hear him barking during her fight with Rorge and Biter at the Inn.

The Bull Helm – created by Gendry at Tobho Mott’s Shop, King’s Landing – helm is representative of a bull with horns – symbolic of his size, strength, stubborness – his identity as forged by himself individually – he is sometimes called “The Bull” - representative of sticking it to boys he worked with at Mott’s - Ned Stark offered to buy it but he was told it was not for sale – indicative of him knowing who he is and he cannot be bought – a source of pride and nostalgia for most likely his first major project he completed as an apprentice smith, and perhaps the nicest and the most prized possession he owned –was used as armor for defense on the road - Current Status: It was taken by Dunsen, who is on Arya’s list, as well as Polliver, who did not have it at the pub brawl with Arya and Sandor. After that the whereabouts are unknown. Not sure if possible, or if it is symbolic of falling away and forging a new identity, but we are curious if it is seen again.

The Hound Helm -belongs to Sandor Clegane - reflective of House Clegane sigil, history, nickname/the Hound persona, and all that entails separate from Sandor - symbolic of a both fierce and loyal nature, the ability to sniff and sense bullshit/lies - now a symbol of falsely attributed atrocities committed not by Sandor - the Helm was laid on Sandor’s grave according to EB, and it was later stolen by Rorge - When he is killed by Brienne it is taken by Lem of the BWB. Current Status: with Lem, who was warned not to utilize it with misgivings by Thoros of Myr.

Needle -

Oathkeeper - Valyrian steel – one of two swords re-forged by Tobho Mott (Gendry’s former master smith/employer) from the Northern Stark longsword formerly known as Ice. A longsword and sister to Widow’s Wail which is smaller. It has a golden pommel carved into a Lannister lion’s head with two ruby chips for eyes. The blade itself is rippled black/red. The gold scabbard has a series of lion’s heads and bedazzler rubies. (Any former Stark or Northerner would be turning in their grave; they do simple. Sorry, it still pisses me off.) Lord Tywin gives it as a gift to Jaime originally but he asks Brienne to use it and doles out the name. In essence, the sword of Ned Stark is now in service to find his two daughters. It was the sword used to kill Lord Stark by Ilyn Payne. Requests by Robb and Catelyn to have it returned were denied previously. It is also incriminating evidence that Brienne has forgotten her oath to Lady Stark and is used by the BWB and LS as proof of collaborating with the Lannisters. Current Status: with Brienne of Tarth in the Riverlands, if it is on her?

More to come...

The common link - The Webbers are looking for:

Arya Stark -

Sansa Stark -

The Vale Connection: Coming soon...

Mad Mouse -

Myranda Royce -

Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish -

[Booknerd2]

Just a recap...

Post Questions Previously Covered: But hey, rehash at any time!

From V.1 – V.3

Post Question #1: Do you think Thoros knows already who Gendry is? Will a Gendry identity reveal, in general, cause problems in an already divided BWB? Is his safety at risk? LS?

Post Question #2: Why do we love Stranger and why he is like an Ancient Greek theatre aside?

Post Question #3: Why we love Nymeria (Big Nyms), Nymeria going forward, and how she is one of the “Benchwarmers.”

Post Question: #4: The Wolf Pack dynamic: or how to name-drop Hot Pie and get him back into the story.

Post Question #5: Who the hell is Jaqen H’gar? What is it with that guy?

Post Question #6: Sandor Goes Trick-or-Treating: What is in store for him, especially in the Riverlands? When a Sandor Eulogy Gets Cancelled

Post Question #7

mercy chapter

Post Question #8: Jaime Lannister is going to have a bad day…a really friggin' bad day.

Post Question:#9: Where in the World is Brynden Sandiego?

Post Question #10: Uncat Rises: A Season of Bloom and Doom

Post Question #11: The Hound and The Bull at the Helm: What do they mean to them, to their story, the series, and you.

Post Question #12: Dog the Dog

Post Question #13: The Orphanage: The Arya Stark Checkpoints, The Tarth Traveller, and One Pissed Off Bull

Post Question #14: The Inn: Come and Knock at my Door, We’ve Been Waiting for You

Post Question #15: The Dayne Defector and Ours has a Fury

Post Question #16: Moving On Up: Petyr “Littlefinger” Baelish.

Post Question #17: The Importance of Being Harwin

[Wizz-The-Smith]

First off, thanks again Booknerd2 for all the work you've put into this thread. You're head of the wolf pack ! :grouphug:

Right ok, re- hash at any time. # The Dayne defector and ours has a fury.

Edric left the BWB right after a couple of others, The Mad Huntsmen and Greenbeard. The latter is an interesting one, he seems in a position of power within the BWB. When Arya runs into Lem, Tom 'o' Sevens, Anguy, Harwin and Jack be Lucky, we get this...

'' Lem was not the leader, though, no more than Tom, that was Greenbeard, the Tyroshi. '' [ Arya lll, ASOS ]

Greenbeard seems to be Pello. A Tyroshi leader of a sellsword company that defected from the Lannister cause, and apparently went over to Robb Stark's side....

'' But the Tyroshi sellsword who led his freeriders struck his banners and went over to the foe. '' [ Tyrion, IX, AGOT ]

Kevan Lannister adds this on the subject..'' A man who fights for coin is only loyal to his purse. '' -- But we never hear of a sellsword company joining the northern fight. [ ? ]

So we have a Tyroshi going awol in the RL's, and then a Tyroshi in appearing in the BWB.

Pello is described on the wiki as having a green, grey beard. We then get Greenbeard appear in the BWB as a leader, in Arya lll, as mentioned above. [ They are linked as the same person on the Wiki ] Did he bring his sellsword company with him ? If so, that's more reinforcements we had perhaps overlooked ? [ or me at least ]

Any how, after the Hound's trial, Greenbeard and The Mad Huntsmen are sent south of The Mander with the gold they confiscated off of Sandor, to buy grain. [ Arya VII, ASOS ]

The very next Arya chapter [ VIII ], we are informed that Edric and some others have gone their 'separate ways'. Some shit went down whilst Greenbeard and TMH were gone. :frown5: Forgive me, I don't have the text to hand, but were there any arguments when the split occurred ? The Wiki just says they went their separate ways.

Could there have been a plan for the departing BWB members to meet up with one of the apparent leaders of their group ? Greenbeard's destination is not only known to them, but geographically directly in the path you may take to Starfall. Obviously Edric's home. This could perhaps fit nicely. :dunno:

Oh well, if not an option, then we at least have an apparent leader of the BWB and TMH noted for insurance. ^_^

[Booknerd2]

First off, thanks again Booknerd2 for all the work you've put into this thread. You're head of the wolf pack ! :grouphug:

Right ok, re- hash at any time. # The Dayne defector and ours has a fury.

Edric left the BWB right after a couple of others, The Mad Huntsmen and Greenbeard. The latter is an interesting one, he seems in a position of power within the BWB. When Arya runs into Lem, Tom 'o' Sevens, Anguy, Harwin and Jack be Lucky, we get this...

'' Lem was not the leader, though, no more than Tom, that was Greenbeard, the Tyroshi. '' [ Arya lll, ASOS ]

Greenbeard seems to be Pello. A Tyroshi leader of a sellsword company that defected from the Lannister cause, and apparently went over to Robb Stark's side....

'' But the Tyroshi sellsword who led his freeriders struck his banners and went over to the foe. '' [ Tyrion, IX, AGOT ]

Kevan Lannister adds this on the subject..'' A man who fights for coin is only loyal to his purse. '' -- But we never hear of a sellsword company joining the northern fight. [ ? ]

So we have a Tyroshi going awol in the RL's, and then a Tyroshi in appearing in the BWB.

Pello is described on the wiki as having a green, grey beard. We then get Greenbeard appear in the BWB as a leader, in Arya lll, as mentioned above. [ They are linked as the same person on the Wiki ] Did he bring his sellsword company with him ? If so, that's more reinforcements we had perhaps overlooked ? [ or me at least ]

Any how, after the Hound's trial, Greenbeard and The Mad Huntsmen are sent south of The Mander with the gold they confiscated off of Sandor, to buy grain. [ Arya VII, ASOS ]

The very next Arya chapter [ VIII ], we are informed that Edric and some others have gone their 'separate ways'. Some shit went down whilst Greenbeard and TMH were gone. :frown5: Forgive me, I don't have the text to hand, but were there any arguments when the split occurred ? The Wiki just says they went their separate ways.

Could there have been a plan for the departing BWB members to meet up with one of the apparent leaders of their group ? Greenbeard's destination is not only known to them, but geographically directly in the path you may take to Starfall. Obviously Edric's home. This could perhaps fit nicely. :dunno:

Oh well, if not an option, then we at least have an apparent leader of the BWB and TMH noted for insurance. ^_^

Thanks, Wizz! The highest compliment ever. LOL! Gotta love that Wolf Pack!

I think it is time for it again. Let us put our wolf paws in the circle!

Whoah……Wolf Pack! :grouphug:

I am glad you posted this. I left that post question on Edric Dayne and still felt there was more to hash out maybe. I have Greenbeard and Huntsmen in notes and we haven't really done anything with it yet. And other BWB stuff to take a gander at too.

But then again, it is coming in two more eventually, and maybe more. We've talked about BWB, but there is so much more and they weren't really profiled yet.

It is going to get covered some more in BWB: Informants and Harborers and one I wanted to do on speculating about the divisions so far and anymore splits to come, which there is some evidence for. And I still think those two will not cover everything as post questions.

This looks good and these are things to think about. I think there is certainly more to come with BWB, and there is evidence on people returning. I think it is not only to show that some don't agree with how LS runs things and the Old Western movie adage, "This town ain't big enough for the both of us."

I think with these BWB factions and stuff that has happened that gets face time and mentions, and then it drops, well, there is more to it than that.

Harwin is not around, Tom just pop us up in Riverrun, and the first time I read that was an "oh, shit," moment. We get snapshots and pieces of what is going on with BWB, but it is not enough.

I went on wiki and there is a great list of members that are named and what they are doing if known. But I still worry about what we are shown and what is really occurring. What people say and what they are then really thinking. And I think there are nameless BWB, and that not only Tom is out there doing Snape work. Harwin is my first candidate to be out and about with a definitive task, and there might be others.

Tom is important because he shows us it is possible, he is out there doing it, and there is now way in hell it is only one guy, there must be more out there doing things.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Also Bookie, I hope you don't mind,[ sure you've thought of it anyway ] some other places to perhaps have on the radar, are, Oldstone's, High Heart and Darry. Darry in particular has popped up a lot throughout this series [ I have quite a few notes on Darry ! ]

Also, The Ghost of High Heart, the BWB seem to visit High Heart regularly, and Lem seems to have a decent relationship with her. Plus the presence of a prophetic albino and Weirwood stumps have piqued my interest.

I realise there is a lot to consider ! And I am taking notes in the hope to help any progression we make through the Riverland's Web. [ There is probably loads more ! ] And I also understand some of these are for future reference, so don't worry. I'm not expecting a detailed reply on these places/people. But thought they may be places we could discuss in future. And I'm always willing to help where notes allow. If not, some homework may help. :D

[Booknerd2]

Also Bookie, I hope you don't mind,[ sure you've thought of it anyway ] some other places to perhaps have on the radar, are, Oldstone's, High Heart and Darry. Darry in particular has popped up a lot throughout this series [ I have quite a few notes on Darry ! ]

Also, The Ghost of High Heart, the BWB seem to visit High Heart regularly, and Lem seems to have a decent relationship with her. Plus the presence of a prophetic albino and Weirwood stumps have piqued my interest.

I realise there is a lot to consider ! And I am taking notes in the hope to help any progression we make through the Riverland's Web. [ There is probably loads more ! ] And I also understand some of these are for future reference, so don't worry. I'm not expecting a detailed reply on these places/people. But thought they may be places we could discuss in future. And I'm always willing to help where notes allow. If not, some homework may help. :D

Keep it coming any time!

The OP is one post, eventually it is going to be 2. Just too much to include and organize. With the OP I put even a few more names with no profiles yet as placeholders, but there are some not even typed in yet!

I even just moved Mad Mouse, Myranda, and LF to another section on Vale links to Riverlands through Sansa, who Webbers are looking for as a primary goal, but it is blank still and under construction. LOL!

Ghost of HH is in my notes, but you are right the other objects and places have to have a place too. I think Ghost of HH should be a post question too down the road, along with other stuff.

I want to do a little blurb on weirwoods and the Riverlands too.

[LongRider]

Lots of catching up to do! Yay! Riverland Web #4!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Keep it coming any time!

The OP is one post, eventually it is going to be 2. Just too much to include and organize. With the OP I put even a few more names with no profiles yet as placeholders, but there are some not even typed in yet!

I even just moved Mad Mouse, Myranda, and LF to another section on Vale links to Riverlands through Sansa, who Webbers are looking for as a primary goal, but it is blank still and under construction. LOL!

Ghost of HH is in my notes, but you are right the other objects and places have to have a place too. I think Ghost of HH should be a post question too down the road, along with other stuff.

I want to do a little blurb on weirwoods and the Riverlands too.

Ok, that'll be cool, look forward to that. High Heart interest's me, perhaps that is where the BWB cave is. Beric sitting upon a Weirwood throne, where else would you get such an intense set of Weirwood roots in the RL's ? Maybe not. :dunno:

And also the '' One eyed corpse of a man '' sitting upon a Weirwood throne with Beric, is a parallel to Bloodraven. Arya also has this '' one eyed corpse '' experience in the House of Black and White, with the 'kindly old man'. Not sure if they mean anything, but feel that perhaps it could. :P

Bloodraven's house is from the Riverland's. With a dead Weiwood in his sigil, and perhaps some 'eyes' provided from the Raven's atop said Weirwood at Raventree Hall ?

[LongRider]

Wizz you are a wizard at digging into the minor characters and really bringing them forward and finding great info on them. It's great to have such detail about the BWB fleshed out. There is more of the BWB running around than I thought.

Wizz said "And also the '' One eyed corpse of a man '' sitting upon a Weirwood throne with Beric, is a parallel to Bloodraven. Arya also has this '' one eyed corpse '' experience in the House of Black and White, with the 'kindly old man'. Not sure if they mean anything, but feel that perhaps it could."

It's always a question about Bloodraven and what he might see. A raven followed Arya after she left the Hound for dead and there is weirwood in the door of the HoBW. Sure makes me wonder.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

1.] Wizz you are a wizard at digging into the minor characters and really bringing them forward and finding great info on them. It's great to have such detail about the BWB fleshed out. There is more of the BWB running around than I thought.

2.] It's always a question about Bloodraven and what he might see. A raven followed Arya after she left the Hound for dead and there is weirwood in the door of the HoBW. Sure makes me wonder.

1.] Thanks LongRider ! I had a window into the world of Samwell Tarly for a moment there. [ although I can't claim to have dreamt of being a wizard as a child. ] I appreciate your comments. :P And yes, there are definitely plenty of BWB flying around, hopefully the planned post question on them will reveal some more, I will keep searching.

2.] Yeah, what BR might see is mind boggling, wherever an animal of any description is in the text and near main events, it is worth considering, add to that any weirwood trees. Plenty of threads on that, and lots of ideas. Nice spot on the Raven following Arya after leaving the Hound, I hadn't noticed, or seen anyone talk about that before.

One I just spotted is the ancient white Gelding with one eye that Jaime rides when travelling with Brienne and Cleos Frey. It doesn't state if the eyes are red or not, but this got my attention anyway. They bought these horses at the Inn of the Kneeling man.

As for Edric Dayne, I like the chance of him meeting with Greenbeard again. South of the Mander is pretty close to Starfall, and if we are to see Edric again, it would make sense that he would need some support / be with a group of friends, and using characters already familiar with each other, and the readers, could also suit the story. Maybe, maybe not. :dunno:

[Booknerd2]

Post Question # 17 The Importance of Being Harwin

Well, we know about him as he appears, or is mentioned, or we assume he is out there somewhere from book 1 and beyond.

My main concerns with him are what he observed, heard, and what he has been doing lately.

And he always struck me as a convenient character:

1. He is a link to Winterfell’s past, present, and possibly future events

2. He was able to id Arya with certainty. In general, here we have/had a Winterfell/Northern man in the BWB, in the Riverlands with the Webbers, as they start to come together(unless he is elsewhere, and more on that later). He was there for events with Arya, with Gendry, and the Hound, events with LS and other characters, and has just been privy to a lot of people and happenings.

3. I think he is going to prove useful and adroit in future too.

But before we start with the present, let’s begin with the past.

He is the son of Hullen who was the master of Horse at Winterfell. He was killed in KL during Ned’s arrest. He seems to have grown up there as a stable boy and guard. He surely can shed some light later, and has already with events regarding Ned, Lyanna, and probably others of that generation at Winterfell and the upcoming events. He tells Arya, and I am sure he carefully worded what he said and considered age and who he was talking to, about the Ned and Ashara rumors, and also tells Arya that her Aunt Lyanna was an excellent rider of horses.

Not sure what we would get if anything, but I would love his observations on Rickard, maybe Lyarra, others at Winterfell, and surely Ned, Brandon, Lyanna, and even Benjen. Or what the early word on the street was when other nobles from Northern Houses came a callin’ to Winterfell back in the day.

I am thinking Downton Abbey here. Those in service hear and know everything anyway…

Fastforward to KL and Ned as Hand, as he was a member of his Household Guard, is sent with men led by Lord Beric to hunt down Gregor Clegane. Thus forming down the road the Brotherhood without Banners, working in the name of King Robert.

Man, he was even there when they found the direwolf pups.

He has seen it all. From growing up at Winterfell, to see all the events of Robert’s Rebellion, maybe the Greyjoy Rebellion too, to see the arrival of the King, Ned and his retinue moving to KL, the aftermath, the run-in with Arya, The RW and LS, and so much more, and up until where he is now…

But what a minute…where the hell is he?

Well, before we get into that….

He is the one that begs Thoros to give Catelyn, who is already dead, the Kiss of Fire, and is denied. Thoros won’t touch her. It is Beric that gives, er, whatever is left of his nine lives or whatever, to her to revive her.

Now, he has not appeared right in front of our noses since a Storm of Swords, or he is the Uncat translator in AFFC, so it has been awhile, but we all know that in this series, things are done and crafted on purpose, and it sometimes means something else.

I truly am leaning that he is doing something akin to what Tom O’Sevens is doing right about now. It was great. GRRM peeled back another layer for us.

Really, it is like: well, if you think they are ALL just hanging out at the Inn or in a cave like Batman you are sorely mistaken. There is much more going on, and Tom was a great example of that.

Harwin also seems to be an often-brought-up candidate for the Hooded Man.

Now, over the years I have flip-flopped on that. He also gives me undue stress to ponder because I end up going in circles. That is all the forum’s fault, because over time many people have put forth several people or instances and had very good arguments and interpretations of text and evidence for them, or for most. LOL!

Me, personally, I’m not feeling Theon Durden. I just never did, but something not appealing to me, doesn’t mean I think it is impossible, but I don’t want to get off topic either. It just never sat right with me.

Harwin is one of my choices, but I like other people that were put forth too.

But as for Harwin:

I think it is no coincidence that a character was created to be from a Winterfell background, an inside man, a Northerner, who happened to really witness howmany friggin’ Stark events? And to do so hands-on and as first-person bystander, from book 1 to book 3 and possibly beyond. But this guy also predates book 1.

He is very tied to the Arya character. He led her pony around as a small girl to get her feet wet riding horses, hence getting a very good look at her, and also he was tied to the Gendry-Arya-Hot Pie-BWB road trip events too.

I can only imagine what the hell he saw before Robert’s Rebellion, during,after, and while in KL with Ned.

If it is the case… that he was sent to check out if Arya Stark was really getting married at Winterfell to Ramsay, he is the best character to do it. And with the whole Hooded Man/Theon exchange. He could fit in with what was said and flowed during that conversation, and he would be the best person to know how to get around Winterfell and undetected. But some feel that he would not need to be sent there due to other reasoning.

So to close, do I think we are going to see him again? Absolutely. Though he is off page, do I think he is out there doing some pretty important things? Absolutely.

Does he have more purposes ahead of him with Stark characters, because of his background and experiences?

Hell yeah! Maybe not major/major thing but something that connects.

Some tidbits:

-He is no fan probably of Meryn Trant either.

-He did nothing either, not like he could really, regarding Mycah, but Arya was upset about that.

-Bran thinks he is dead. That….is something to hold on to. I think we may be surprised that other Winterfell people survived and are somewhere too. Maybe not many, but I suspect a nice surprise or two, a little twist. Harwin did say that some guardsman from KL that went with Beric are out there still.

-Is he the LS interpreter in AFFC?

So, anything else to point out regarding Harwin? What do you think he has been up to? What is his purpose? And how and when will we see him again?

[LongRider]

booknerd2 said "If it is the case… that he was sent to check out if Arya Stark was really getting married at Winterfell to Ramsay, he is the best character to do it. And with the whole Hooded Man/Theon exchange. He could fit in with what was said and flowed during that conversation, and he would be the best person to know how to get around Winterfell and undetected. But some feel that he would not need to be sent there due to other reasoning."

I really have nothing for Harwin, but do like the idea of this. He would make a good spy in WF and could recognize the real Arya. If he got a good look at Jeyne would he recognize her as well I wonder?

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I really have nothing for Harwin, but do like the idea of this. He would make a good spy in WF and could recognize the real Arya. If he got a good look at Jeyne would he recognize her as well I wonder?

I suppose Harwin could be anywhere, and on a number of various missions.

But I think the main option for discussion is Harwin being the hooded man, otherwise as Bookie has mentioned, he is simply translating for LS, and still with the BWB. Or..., if he is somewhere else, ideas would be based on wild speculation. [ I think ] Which can still be fun. :P

We have a really thorough history and connection with Harwin, from the Direwolf scene onwards, and is a character we know has a wide knowledge on Winterfell. So the hooded man does make sense, I thought differently at first, [ Galbert Glover ] but have come round to the idea that this would fit nicely.

As for whether he would recognise Jayne ? I would say definitely. He was brought up there, as was Jayne, and they have both interacted with the main Stark siblings, surely there paths must have crossed ? I would go as far to say that they know each other rather well.

[LongRider]

I agree that Harwin and Jeyne know each other, but Jeyne's life has really changed, and she has matured and been, well basically a brothel sex slave for LF so she may look different than when Harwin last saw her in KL. That's what I meant. On the other hand, Theon recognized her so Harwin would as well. So, he recognizes Jeyne and even if he doesn't he knows who ever she is she's not Arya.

[Booknerd2]

This is where it gets speculative:

If he was raised there, he had his job, but surely as a youngster he played and did some running around and had free time. I am sure just over time he knows some of the nooks and crannies of Winterfell that outsiders, and maybe even others wouldn't know. He may even had done some running around with younger Starks like Lyanna and Benjen. Arya played with the kids of people in service.

He saw Arya with BWB and that was not a very long time ago. I think he could id Arya. I think he could id Arya even if those morons got another girl to fake her. But it would be even easier to tell the difference by someone who knows both girls. Funny, that it is poor Jeyne Poole that they use, another Winterfellian, but it is more for her Northern background too. If you are going to shoot for a decoy, try to get one with the most similar background, I guess. Why get a girl from Dorne or the Reach or whatever. She has brown hair, but not the gray eyes, and was good friends with Sansa Stark.

And Harwin was at KL with Ned when Jeyne was there with her father so he saw her more recently too.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I agree that Harwin and Jeyne know each other, but Jeyne's life has really changed, and she has matured and been, well basically a brother sex slave for LF so she may look different than when Harwin last saw her in KL. That's what I meant. On the other hand, Theon recognized her so Harwin would as well. So, he recognizes Jeyne and even if he doesn't he knows who ever she is she's not Arya.

Sorry, of course, and that's a good point. As you've said Theon recognised her, so Harwin probably would too.

Just to throw it out there, if it is Harwin, does he have back up ? A way to communicate with the BWB ? Or maybe a pre arranged plan, how much info could they have of goings on up north ? Is he by himself ?

[Booknerd2]

Sorry, of course, and that's a good point. As you've said Theon recognised her, so Harwin probably would too.

Just to throw it out there, if it is Harwin, does he have back up ? A way to communicate with the BWB ? Or maybe a pre arranged plan, how much info could they have of goings on up north ? Is he by himself ?

Totally speculating again…but it was mentioned that there were 6 other Wintefell men that were in the Hand's Guard that left Kl to find Gregor with Beric, but that they are "scattered," er, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

That could be convenience, or nothing at all.

But I agree. I think they have contingency plans if that is Harwin's case. And we saw that they have/make contacts either sympathetic to them, the Riverlands, and for people angry regarding what the Lannisters and others have done, so I am sure for him with Northern contacts he has advantages. And especially if he knows Stark supporters or people that just hate the Boltons more, or something.

I think the BWB will send people for things that suit them.

Tom as a musician was perfect for Riverrun, and he knew the place. Harwin, for example, would not be as effective there.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

1.] If he was raised there, he had his job, but surely as a youngster he played and did some running around and had free time. I am sure just over time he knows some of the nooks and crannies of Winterfell that outsiders, and maybe even others wouldn't know. He may even had done some running around with younger Starks like Lyanna and Benjen. Arya played with the kids of people in service.

2.] He saw Arya with BWB and that was not a very long time ago. I think he could id Arya. I think he could id Arya even if those morons got another girl to fake her. But it would be even easier to tell the difference by someone who knows both girls. Funny, that it is poor Jeyne Poole that they use, another Winterfellian, but it is more for her Northern background too. If you are going to shoot for a decoy, try to get one with the most similar background, I guess. Why get a girl from Dorne or the Reach or whatever. She has brown hair, but not the gray eyes, and was good friends with Sansa Stark.

And Harwin was at KL with Ned when Jeyne was there with her father so he saw her more recently too.

1.] Definitely, I'm sure there was a passage about Bran knowing some places that no one else knew about. Could come in handy for Harwin, with all due respect to Bran, I'm sure there are others who know the secrets to Winterfell. A possibility. :dunno:

2.] Agreed with the recent contact thing, nice point. As for Jayne, did Tywin know she was a Winterfellian ? That would surely be a tactical whoopsie. No matter the state of the north. Or was it arranged purely on looks + northernness ? Even if he was ignorant, Jeyne came south with Ned and co, so a big whoopsie by all concerned.

[Booknerd2]

1.] Definitely, I'm sure there was a passage about Bran knowing some places that no one else knew about. Could come in handy for Harwin, with all due respect to Bran, I'm sure there are others who know the secrets to Winterfell. A possibility. :dunno:

2.] Agreed with the recent contact thing, nice point. As for Jayne, did Tywin know she was a Winterfellian ? That would surely be a tactical whoopsie. No matter the state of the north. Or was it arranged purely on looks + northernness ? Even if he was ignorant, Jeyne came south with Ned and co, so a big whoopsie by all concerned.

Really quick from the wiki, I wouldn't be able to find all her mentions throughout a couple of books fast.

A Storm of Swords

"When Jaime Lannister says farewell to Steelshanks Walton there is a northern girl present who claims to be Arya Stark, although Jaime does not recognize her. In case Brienne has the idea of rescuing the girl, Jaime tells Brienne that the girl is not Arya Stark but some northern girl his father Tywin Lannister found. They pin a wolf brooch on her and send her north to wed Roose Bolton's legitimized bastard, Ramsay Bolton, in order to cement their claim to Winterfell. Brienne is shocked, but Jaime explains that with all of Arya Stark's kin believed dead, besides her sister Sansa and half-brother on the Wall, no one will be able to dispute the girl's identity. According to Jaime, the Boltons are aware the girl is a fraud.^[7]

A Feast for Crows

Queen Cersei claims that Lord Petyr Baelish dressed up a "steward's whelp" and claimed she was Arya Stark, sent to marry Ramsay."

Surely, Cersei knows that Vayon Poole was her only kin and dead? And she wouldn't care because she sounds like she thinks that it is nothing because Jeyne comes from a steward, and not a noble House or lord that could make trouble for her. So, she is not illiterate or uneducated say like a whore from Flea Bottom that would be a dead giveaway through speech, speech patterns, and gesture, etc., that it would not be Arya due to breeding and raising.

Jeyne might have had a similar education to Sansa and Arya.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Totally speculating again…but it was mentioned that there were 6 other Wintefell men that were in the Hand's Guard that left Kl to find Gregor with Beric, but that they are "scattered," er, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

Good point Bookie, I was going to mention that as a possibility for the ''northern man'' translating for LS. So that leaves 4 possibilities to have travelled with Harwin. Although the more I look into the BWB, it seems they are ''scattered'', we have a couple of names and possible destinations, but surley they would've taken men with them, some at least. So perhaps these northerners are all over the place with different factions of the BWB. :dunno: