The Night's Prince/ A Promise Broken

[Trogdor Targaryen]

What is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger.

Moqorro tells Victarion that The Drowned God is just a Thrall of The Great Other, but aside from that doesn't do much to protest Vic's sacrifice to both gods. I get the impression that R'hllor is in the exact same category as the Drowned God, just another face of the same god, which is the great other that all the red priests claim to be against. Both include sacrifice, both have dead that have been resurrected, and both center around an element of nature and two gods who are at war. Interestingly enough, the only person in the series we see outright proclaim to serve one of these gods enemies is Euron who claims the Storm God, also claimed to have had a dream similar to the one Bran had involving the three eyed raven. If that is the case, and R'hllor is the other and the Drowned god, it would show the old gods being adversaries of all three

Why would the Ironborn choose to follow such a different religious belief system than the rest of the First Men who Settled on Westeros? Perhaps it is because they didn't come over on the arm of Dorne like all the other land locked emigrants, but rather sailed there and literally came from the sea like they claim. The Iron Islands are on the northwest side of Westeros, how would they land there coming from Essos without settling somewhere else more convenient first? Why sail so far around the continent?

Perhaps they traveled a different direction.... Perhaps to get to Westeros, they sailed East. Where would they have departed from? Ibben, Asshai or the Shadowlands seem like potential exit points to me, and all are areas where it seems that The Red God reigns. If the First Ironmen were originally tied to r'hllor it would make sense that they would create a similar, water based understanding of the religion, or the two religions could have been founded simultaneously even, since we don't know which predates which.

We also know that The Islands thin soil can hardly bear any foliage, certainly not a Weirwood tree, which makes the Iron Islands the perfect location for followers of a religion opposed to the old gods.

A lot of people think that the Nights King was a Stark, mainly because Old Nan suggests it as a possibility, but what if that is a red herring? Wouldn't it make sense for someone who Marries an Other to be in a religion that looks upon the favorably rather than one who comes from a tradition which opposes the others? I think it is possible that the NK was a Greyjoy instead. When the Long Night ended, it makes sense that some sort of agreement ushered in the peace, since the others are still around. This probably involved Sovereignty of the Islands.

Before Aegon the Conqueror, the Ironmen had sovereignty but were able to expand their rule as well, as exemplefied by King Harren the Black. After Aegon forged the 7 kingdoms, it seems like the peace was breached. However, the Targaryens (some members), despite their public proclamation of following the faith of the seven seems to have some sort of tie to R'hllor, meaning that there is a substantial balance of power in the kingdom between the various belief systems. This Neutrality lasted until the Targaryens were given the boot, which left only the Ironborn as the followers of their God again, but now entirely under rule of other religions, which was probably to at least some extent a piece of pretext during Balon's Rebellion.

(Warning this is where I start Cracking Pots, and I don't have the Ebooks so I don't quote)

After Balon's rebellion was thwarted, Theon Greyjoy was taken as a Hostage to ensure his fathers good behavior. How long does one usually remain a ward in that type of situation, and how much longer would Theon have been kept at Winterfell if Ned stayed in charge? Catelyn certainly was against sending Theon back, surely Ned would agree. Theon spent nearly ten years in Winterfell, half of his life. Surely he had reached the age where he could have his leash loosened a little, but no, he was still a thrall of Ned Stark, going to retrieve Ice whenever someone was due to have their head removed to remind him how things could still go for him if both he and his father don't behave. If the Ironborn's sovereignty was part of a treaty then this could potentially be a significant violation of that truce.

The Others aren't just going to let this happen, that's why they started making their move and letting their presence be known beyond the wall. They knew that if they caused enough of a ripple, the Nightwatch would send out the first ranger to figure out what's going on. The trap worked perfectly. They took Benjen Stark as their hostage and killed the rest of his team, who didn't matter. Now they have a Stark hostage to balance the hostage Stark has of theirs. This of course isn't sufficient which is why they tried to acquire Jon as well, because how perfect would a half Stark Half Targ be, perhaps they even thought they could convert him to follow the others.

In Clash, Theon returned home. Yet, he was so conditioned by the Starks that his father was disgusted by him. Even being drowned (Born amidst Salt) wasn't enough to get all the Stark out of him, and soon as he was able, he returned to the only place he still felt at home, his prison Winterfell. His yearning combined with the absence of Ned and Ice led him to take the castle. This seems like a horrible mistake, though it led to him being presented with the best option he could have ever hoped for in life. Maester Luwin even convinced him to join the NW, where he could finally be free of his unsettled identity because as a Black brother, he would finally know where his place was. If Ramsay hadn't shown to burn down Winterfell up perhaps the others could have been assuaged. Instead, Theon has suffered more greatly than he could have imagined since he became Reek (Born amongst smoke) at the hands of a weirwood follower, and I shudder to think of how the others are paying back Benjen. If Theon is killed then his death would be a serious breach of treaty, especially since the crime he is accused of is one he is not guilty. The only hope seems to be that lord lamprey stops eating long enough to mention to Stannis that he knows that Theon is innocent. but why should Stannis give him the chance to say this? I'm pretty sure killing the hand of the king has some pretty severe consequences that Stannis won't hesitate to carry out.

If Theon's king's blood is spilled onto a weirwood tree, the others would most likely see it as an act of war.

[Trogdor Targaryen]

Too good, right?

[Archmaester Drew]

Why would the Ironborn choose to follow such a different religious belief system than the rest of the First Men who Settled on Westeros? Perhaps it is because they didn't come over on the arm of Dorne like all the other land locked emigrants, but rather sailed there and literally came from the sea like they claim. The Iron Islands are on the northwest side of Westeros, how would they land there coming from Essos without settling somewhere else more convenient first? Why sail so far around the continent?

Perhaps they traveled a different direction.... Perhaps to get to Westeros, they sailed East. Where would they have departed from? Ibben, Asshai or the Shadowlands seem like potential exit points to me, and all are areas where it seems that The Red God reigns. If the First Ironmen were originally tied to r'hllor it would make sense that they would create a similar, water based understanding of the religion, or the two religions could have been founded simultaneously even, since we don't know which predates which.

We also know that The Islands thin soil can hardly bear any foliage, certainly not a Weirwood tree, which makes the Iron Islands the perfect location for followers of a religion opposed to the old gods.

I think that it is possible that the Iron Islands were not islands originally, but connected to the Neck. When the Children of the Forest brought down the waters on the First Men in the Neck they were actually focused more on the soon-to-be islands, where the Grey king had established himself (possibly in a sacred weirwood grove that became 'Nagga's bones'). The Neck was flooded in the process and became a marsh, but the lands to the west were shattered, like the Arm of Dorne, forming the Iron Island -- much like the Stepstones. This, like the Arm, was unsuccessful in stemming the tide of First Men and the Children and First men eventually made peace with the Pact.

The Drowned God is a product of these events, perhaps? :)

[Trogdor Targaryen]

I think that it is possible that the Iron Islands were not islands originally, but connected to the Neck. When the Children of the Forest brought down the waters on the First Men in the Neck they were actually focused more on the soon-to-be islands, where the Grey king had established himself (possibly in a sacred weirwood grove that became 'Nagga's bones'). The Neck was flooded in the process and became a marsh, but the lands to the west were shattered, like the Arm of Dorne, forming the Iron Island -- much like the Stepstones. This, like the Arm, was unsuccessful in stemming the tide of First Men and the Children and First men eventually made peace with the Pact.

The Drowned God is a product of these events, perhaps? :)

Ok, that does seem entirely plausible, but it still leaves the question of why does the drowned god seem connected to the great other? If what you suggested is true, then perhaps the IB took this religious perspective do to a sour taste left by the children's antagonism and recognized the others as good, in comparison.

[Archmaester Drew]

Ok, that does seem entirely plausible, but it still leaves the question of why does the drowned god seem connected to the great other? If what you suggested is true, then perhaps the IB took this religious perspective do to a sour taste left by the children's antagonism and recognized the others as good, in comparison.

Perhaps. :dunno: