Social Justice Warriors, Unite, again!

[karaddin]

Your ability to cherry pick something absurd doesn't alter the fact that there are a ton of issues with sexism in Western society still. Read the fucking Rolling Stone article about frats at UVA for example. White Western feminists trying to liberate women in other cultures is typically not helpful or welcome, so we should just close our eyes and sing kumbaya and ignore the problems that are here?

[Relic]

You guy's are really still surprised when Muslims say/do something sexist..? Women are constantly marginalised and abused at the hands of that repugnant cult. But of course that doesn't compare the oppression women are subjected to in the west.

Ummm.... Dunno where we'd be without you.

[Larry of the Lawn]

relic, with respect, if you define sex as mere foot sniffing, i think that maybe you're doing it wrong?

Normally I'd say you have a point solo, but foot sniffing in conjunction with coy glances and references to Paradise... Well... That's some kinky Shit.

Are you two studying for a stage version of Pulp Fiction?

[Gears of the Beast]

Your ability to cherry pick something absurd doesn't alter the fact that there are a ton of issues with sexism in Western society still. Read the fucking Rolling Stone article about frats at UVA for example. White Western feminists trying to liberate women in other cultures is typically not helpful or welcome, so we should just close our eyes and sing kumbaya and ignore the problems that are here?

Why?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

GotB,

You guy's are really still surprised when Muslims say/do something sexist..? Women are constantly marginalised and abused at the hands of that repugnant cult. But of course that doesn't compare the oppression women are subjected to in the west.

All Muslims everywhere are "part of a repugnant cult"? Wow, you aren't sterotyping at all.

[Relic]

Hahaha.

[Relic]

Why?

Troll alert. Preparing ignore button.

[Gears of the Beast]

All Muslims everywhere are "part of a repugnant cult"? Wow, you aren't sterotyping at all.

Yes, they are - if they actually adhere to the religion. I think all semitic religions are repugnant cults so you can add all practicing Jews and Christians to that list too.

[karaddin]

Why?

For a range of reasons, more than I can articulate here and more than I should really be answering as I am a white western feminist. A major one would be a history of colonialism and the assumption that we know what is best for how they can fix issues in their culture. Another would be that when there is somewhat of a climate of anti-west reactionary views, any group that the west is lobbying on behalf of can become a target for those opposed to the west. This dynamic comes into play with the homophobia that is getting worse in much of the world, even though conservatives from the west are also pulling the strings of some of it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

GotB,

Yes, they are - if they actually adhere to the religion. I think all semitic religions are repugnant cults so you can add all practicing Jews and Christians to that list too.

Thanks. You're a gem.

[Gears of the Beast]

For a range of reasons, more than I can articulate here and more than I should really be answering as I am a white western feminist. A major one would be a history of colonialism and the assumption that we know what is best for how they can fix issues in their culture. Another would be that when there is somewhat of a climate of anti-west reactionary views, any group that the west is lobbying on behalf of can become a target for those opposed to the west. This dynamic comes into play with the homophobia that is getting worse in much of the world, even though conservatives from the west are also pulling the strings of some of it.

I wouldn't say such an endeavor would imply that we have 'the assumption that we can fix their culture'. We have a good enough grasp on basic human rights and moral guidelines that we believe should be imposed universally do we not?

[karaddin]

I wouldn't say such an endeavor would imply that we have 'the assumption that we can fix their culture'. We have a good enough grasp on basic human rights and moral guidelines that we believe should be imposed universally do we not?

We don't get to say whether they welcome it or not, it's a complex environment with an awful fuck ton of historical baggage.

[Gears of the Beast]

We don't get to say whether they welcome it or not, it's a complex environment with an awful fuck ton of historical baggage.

The UN has already established that sovereignty is not a right but rather a privilege that can be revoked if a state fails to protect its people. Right now it only applies things like genocide but if you truly believe human rights to be inalienable and universal (as I do) do you not think that we have right and the obligation to say "no you absolutely must abide by these basic tenants of humanity"?

[sologdin]

gears, internal critique will have more weight than external. two reasons for this: if a pack of postmodern bourgeois liberals mock the turkish president for his premodern views, he's not nearly as likely to take it seriously as he will some of his own voters; the identical western position is easily dismissible by him as imperialist posturing. conversely, the pomo western liberal risks very little in criticizing official enemies, whereas the internal critic is subject to the heavy hand of the jurisdiction against which agitation proceeds. both are relevant to establishing bona fides.

[karaddin]

The UN has already established that sovereignty is not a right but rather a privilege that can be revoked if a state fails to protect its people. Right now it only applies things like genocide but if you truly believe human rights to be inalienable and universal (as I do) do you not think that we have right and the obligation to say "no you absolutely must abide by these basic tenants of humanity"?

Sure, but I'm also enough of a pragmatist to recognise that you need to be smart about how you are doing it and if you end up making things worse then that's not helping. A better strategy is a long term process of engagement with activists within these regions and providing them with the support to bring about the changes themselves. Besides who is going to impose the rules? The UN is pretty toothless, so you want the US to engage in more Imperialism that's just going to make things worse? Russia sure as fuck aint helping with protecting the rights of LGBTQI people when they are busy discriminating against said people themselves.

So I'm fine with saying, for example, that Female Gential Mutilation is disgusting torture and no civilised society should allow it's practice regardless of it's traditional use. Australia should seek to prosecute any who do it here, as that is within our jurisdiction. Getting people in countries where its done at high percentages requires a different approach however, even if I condemn the practice just as much.

[Summah]

- make hard to compare its situation with civil rights movements in American sixties, where you had one moderate group also lead by people of the main religion of the country, very likely to recieve white men support, one leftist radical group only likely to recieve support from other radicals, and one muslim radical group, all organized, disciplined and having real popular support. And all sharing one clear priority, equal rights, if they had different methods and ambitions for the next steps.

Except that's not what happened, the mainstream civil rights movement was absolutely reviled. There's a reason why some of the iconic pictures of the movement are of the white authorities siccing dogs on the black protesters. People were lynched for being a part of the mainstream movement, even some white people who supported and worked for civil rights were killed, and this was before the Black Panthers existed and NOI was around since the 30s, but nowhere near as prominent as they became in the early 60s with Malcolm X. Also there were a lot of groups, NAACP was also mainstream, and also mainstream the SCLC which is the one most associated with MLK. I also think it's important to note that yes King advocated using non-violent methods obviously drawing inspiration from Gandhi, he was much more radical in his beliefs than he's remembered and taught, he was anti-Viet Nam war, very concerned about the rights of the poor, I think his beliefs could probably best be described as democratic socialist Christian, he has been very much white washed.

And I don't think the NOI practices a type of Islam that's readily recognized by other Muslims as being particularly Muslim, I don't think calling them a "muslim radical group" is the most accurate label of their beliefs, Black Nationalist or Black separatist would be more accurate. In the 60s the Black Panthers and NOI were better known and there would have been comparisons to the more mainstream civil rights organizations, also I think parts of the white population became disgusted with the ugly behavior from the pro segregation whites.

[Gears of the Beast]

gears, internal critique will have more weight than external. two reasons for this: if a pack of postmodern bourgeois liberals mock the turkish president for his premodern views, he's not nearly as likely to take it seriously as he will some of his own voters; the identical western position is easily dismissible by him as imperialist posturing. conversely, the pomo western liberal risks very little in criticizing official enemies, whereas the internal critic is subject to the heavy hand of the jurisdiction against which agitation proceeds. both are relevant to establishing bona fides.

Personally I think dragging Islam kicking and screaming into the 21st century (as has been done to some extent with Christianity) is preferable to sitting around and waiting for it to change.

Sure, but I'm also enough of a pragmatist to recognise that you need to be smart about how you are doing it and if you end up making things worse then that's not helping. A better strategy is a long term process of engagement with activists within these regions and providing them with the support to bring about the changes themselves. Besides who is going to impose the rules? The UN is pretty toothless, so you want the US to engage in more Imperialism that's just going to make things worse? Russia sure as fuck aint helping with protecting the rights of LGBTQI people when they are busy discriminating against said people themselves.

It's clearly a very nuanced issue with no easy answers but I do think there are many different things we could be doing -beyond helping out activists- in order to effect change (preferably outside of the useless UN). But political will is also an issue; the US probably won't be as eager to correct Iran's treatment of women as they are to halt their nuclear program. But to circle back to the original point I think it would be helpful if the women's movement that was so successful in the western world were more occupied with attempting to effect change in these Muslim countries. We need more Ayaan Hirsi Alis and less whiny Verge writers.

So I'm fine with saying, for example, that Female Gential Mutilation is disgusting torture and no civilised society should allow it's practice regardless of it's traditional use. Australia should seek to prosecute any who do it here, as that is within our jurisdiction. Getting people in countries where its done at high percentages requires a different approach however, even if I condemn the practice just as much.

Well yeah, but personally I don't limit my moral condemnation of infant genital mutilation to one gender. The complete double standard surrounding male genital mutilation is just baffling and something which we aren't even close to addressing in western society.

[karaddin]

I was picking something that is pretty universally condemned in the west as an example of how I am OK with responding, not looking to start a debate on male circumcision which is a debate I stay out of for personal emotional reasons.

[The Anti-Targ]

GotB,

Thanks. You're a gem.

Equal opportunity intolerance FTW!

[Crixus]

Here we go again: ISLAMEVILNOO. For what it's worth, I agree with karaddin regarding white western feminists 'teaching' us brown ladies how to be feminists/ensure we have our rights etc. I know this is probably unfathomable for some, but here in actual Muslim countries, women (like me) are working daily on the ground to improve life, according to local culture and history and society; not just typing self righteously. Of course, the only lens such people have are Western-media based, so how would they know?

To drag the debate back to SJW, here's an 'interesting' read. I say 'interesting' because many of his points are clearly disingenuous.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9376232/free-speech-is-so-last-century-todays-students-want-the-right-to-be-comfortable/