How different is Dorne?

[HosteenOsteen]

Sometimes I feel people (especially in talking about upcoming season 5 of the TV show) speak as if Dorne was incredibly different from the rest of Westeros,. Different ethnic background and gender roles, yes, but the dominant Westerosi institutions--knighthood, fostering; the Seven; lords and bannermen; fathers making marriage contracts for their kids without their consent (Doran and Arianne)--still obtain there. In a sense the worshippers of Rh'llor are introducing more cultural difference into Westeros than anything in Dorne. Not to underestimate Dornish peculiarities, but I think it one was in Dorne, one would feel one was in Westeros, not in Essos, just as when one is in Spain, one feels more in Europe than Asia or Africa, though the Moorish influence is there the way it is not in France.

Or maybe I'm wrong. How different is Dorne?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Paramours. Orphans of the Greenblood. A mixture of Andal, First Men and Rhoynar blood.

Female heirs and different inheritance laws. Lesser gender stereotypes and views on things gender roles. Views on sexuality and homosexuality. Climate. The method of warfare and weapons.

All the regions are different from each other. The Stormlands and Iron Islands are totally different. As with everywhere else. The Marcher lords of the stormlands are different to the lords of Cape Wrath, who differ from the kingswood lords. It is the same for all regions, they can be split into groups of 3-5.

Dorne just especially stands out, and this is because of the Rhoynar.

[Chebyshov]

I'd argue that Dorne is the most unique-feeling of the kingdoms, and probably the one that would feel the least "Westerosi." The unique speech would definitely contribute to that as well. But keep in mind they were a free and independent kingdom for like 160 years after everyone else, and still "recently" joined the fold, in the grand scheme of things. For that reason, despite the difference in "races" there Dorne is very unified when it comes to placing the interests of Dorne first. It is the closest thing we see to nation state in this world.

I was about to go into the nuances about Dornish marriages and gush on and on about all other differences, but instead I'll link you the current Dornish Debates thread, and you can check out our own obsessive musings as you please :).

[Mithras]

I'd argue that Dorne is the most unique-feeling of the kingdoms, and probably the one that would feel the least "Westerosi." The unique speech would definitely contribute to that as well. But keep in mind they were a free and independent kingdom for like 160 years after everyone else, and still "recently" joined the fold, in the grand scheme of things. For that reason, despite the difference in "races" there Dorne is very unified when it comes to placing the interests of Dorne first. It is the closest thing we see to nation state in this world.

I was about to go into the nuances about Dornish marriages and gush on and on about all other differences, but instead I'll link you the current Dornish Debates thread, and you can check out our own obsessive musings as you please :).

We will see whether Martells will be able to hold the allegiance of the entire Dorne, especially after Dany arrives. The stony Dornishmen led by Yronwoods and Daynes might be swayed to Dany.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So is the North and the Iron Islands. Even the Vale.

We will see whether Martells will be able to hold the allegiance of the entire Dorne, especially after Dany arrives. The stony Dornishmen led by Yronwoods and Daynes might be swayed to Dany.

Actually, Stannis and the Starks are way more likely than Dany. Lord Dayne has been fighting for the true King (Stannis) for three years, immensely respected Ned Stark and adored Arya Stark.

And the Yronwoods despise female rulers, having much more in common with the rest of Westeros than with Sunspear.

[Chebyshov]

Actually we know very little about Anders's true sympathies. Arianne says what she says about "Criston Col reborn" when she's manipulating Arys. I'd argue by necessity the Marcher Lords may be among the most dogmatically Dornish. When it comes to the BF rebellions, I'm of the mind Dornish independence was on the table for the Yronwoods. Cletus and Arch going with Quentyn is indicative of cooperation between the Martells and the Bloodroyals, as was Anders feasting Swann for a fortnight to distract him. IMO it will always be Dorne first.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

So is the North and the Iron Islands. Even the Vale.

Actually, Stannis and the Starks are way more likely than Dany. Lord Dayne has been fighting for the true King (Stannis) for three years, immensely respected Ned Stark and adored Arya Stark.

And the Yronwoods despise female rulers, having much more in common with the rest of Westeros than with Sunspear.

Which Dayne has ever fought for Stannis? They hate Baratheons. Wait do you mean Edrick? I don't think he cares much for Stannis atm...

We will see whether Martells will be able to hold the allegiance of the entire Dorne, especially after Dany arrives. The stony Dornishmen led by Yronwoods and Daynes might be swayed to Dany.

Dorne is united against the Targs, not to themselves. The Fowlers hate the Yronwoods, who hate the Martells, who the Andal houses love, but they idolise the Daynes, who are related to the Jordaynes... It goes on.

Doran even says so, he doesn't trust that many lords. Aero also takes note of which lords refuse to toast Balon Swann, a marcher lord, and thinks that those are the houses likely to cause trouble. And when you throw the Sand Snakes into it...

Hotah paid more note to those who did not drink: Ser Daemon Sand, Lord Tremond Gargalen, the Fowler twins, Dagos Manwoody, the Ullers of the Hellholt, the Wyls of the Boneway.

Daemon Sand is a friend of Arianne.

Gargalen we know little, as with Manwoody.

Ullers are Ellarias relatives and friends with the Sand Snakes, and likewise the Fowler twins.

The Wyls are pricks who will go where the fighting is.

[joluoto2]

And the Yronwoods despise female rulers, having much more in common with the rest of Westeros than with Sunspear.

Wait, what? The Yronwood heir is a woman, and that was before Lord Yronwood's son died. They follow the same succession principles as the rest of Dorne, even thought they don't have much Rhoynish blood.

[Chebyshov]

Wait, what? The Yronwood heir is a woman, and that was before Lord Yronwood's son died. They follow the same succession principles as the rest of Dorne, even thought they don't have much Rhoynish blood.

Actually, Cletus is listed as Yronwood's heir (appendix) despite Ynys being older. The youngest sister, Gwyneth is now heir though, which is curious, because this means that the reason for Ynys not being heir wasn't about her gender, else she'd be the heir now. Instead, it seems as if there might be some kind of Dornish anti-trust law, and with Ynys marrying Ryon Allyrion, who has to be heir of Godsgrace because he has no other siblings, it's very possible she gave up her claim to Yronwood for more simple Allyrion succession.

Granted, all this is completely theory-crafting. What I will say for a certainty is that if Yronwood practiced male inheritance like the rest of Westeros, there's no way Arianne wouldn't have called attention to that when she was manipulating Arys. Instead, she talks in vague terms about what Anders probably thinks about female rulers.

[HosteenOsteen]

I really appreciate the details about the Yronwood lineage as this has always baffled me. I agree the Yronwoods are not likely to go form Dany and are in some ways akin to the North, the Daynes do seem to have some sort of allegiance to the Targaryens. How the whole Ned Dayne thing will play out is one of the potentially most fascinating strands in the whole remaining books....

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Which Dayne has ever fought for Stannis? They hate Baratheons. Wait do you mean Edrick? I don't think he cares much for Stannis atm...

Edric was Beric Dondarrion's squire. They fought for the true king. The only problem is that nobody ever told them he was called Stannis. Get that info to them and you'll see a reaction - and Lady Stoneheart knows.

Wait, what? The Yronwood heir is a woman, and that was before Lord Yronwood's son died. They follow the same succession principles as the rest of Dorne, even thought they don't have much Rhoynish blood.

Actually, Cletus was.

[Mithras]

I think Doran's grasp to Dorne and Dornish Lords is much higher than Arianne thinks but it is not 100%. Moreover, if (when) Droan dies, that will not necessarily mean that Arianne's grasp will be as firm as Doran's.

[Chebyshov]

Well keep in mind what Hotah's concerns were about those who he listed as likely to start "trouble." It wasn't like, anti-Martell sentiment...it was the people who were most thirsty to fight Lannisters and might want to drag Dorne into the war sooner rather than later. So basically, it was the people that were so upset about Oberyn's death they want revenge, in the name of Dorne.

Also, after being in charge of feasts, frolics, and the entertainment of noble guests for some time, Arianne is incredibly popular, especially with the lordlings her age and the common-folk. Between her and Doran, they have a pretty great hold on the kingdom. And now that she's in her "place of high honor" and acting the part of the heir, the Dornish Lords will begin looking to her as well as Doran.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I really appreciate the details about the Yronwood lineage as this has always baffled me. I agree the Yronwoods are not likely to go form Dany and are in some ways akin to the North, the Daynes do seem to have some sort of allegiance to the Targaryens. How the whole Ned Dayne thing will play out is one of the potentially most fascinating strands in the whole remaining books....

Those were Daynes in recent times. No previous Dayne ever loved Targaryens. I can't speak for Edric though.

Edric was Beric Dondarrion's squire. They fought for the true king. The only problem is that nobody ever told them he was called Stannis. Get that info to them and you'll see a reaction - and Lady Stoneheart knows.

Actually, Cletus was.

For Robert... Someone might wanna notify the brotherhood... And I don't think they fight for any king now. They fight for Stoneheart (veengeance) or Thoros (smallfolk).

Well keep in mind what Hotah's concerns were about those who he listed as likely to start "trouble." It wasn't like, anti-Martell sentiment...it was the people who were most thirsty to fight Lannisters and might want to drag Dorne into the war sooner rather than later. So basically, it was the people that were so upset about Oberyn's death they want revenge, in the name of Dorne.

Also, after being in charge of feasts, frolics, and the entertainment of noble guests for some time, Arianne is incredibly popular, especially with the lordlings her age and the common-folk. Between her and Doran, they have a pretty great hold on the kingdom. And now that she's in her "place of high honor" and acting the part of the heir, the Dornish Lords will begin looking to her as well as Doran.

Doran mistrusts a lot of his own lords. Lady Toland has been nothing but accomodating, but he still distrusts her.

Also many lords and ladies are threatening to withdraw their armies for their own protection (Toland and I think Jordayne), and some are itching to fight (Yronwood, Wyl, Uller) which is not what Doran wants. I do think they would act against Doran's wishes if it was better for Dorne. Vengenace for Oberyn and Elia and maybe now Quentyn.

Arianne as Princess would find herself influenced by Sand Snakes I think. Not necessarily, but maybe. And none of the Sand Snakes ideas benefits the Martells directly.