Mithras Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Can anybody make sense of what happened during the times of Jonnel, Barth, Brandon, Edric Stark brothers? What the hell happened to succession rules? We know that Barth Stark is the one who was killed during the Skagosi Rebellion which took place during Daeron II's reign. We also know that Beron was dying from wounds against Dagon Greyjoy post-TMK. That means whatever the succession problem, it happened before he First Blackfyre Rebellion and possibly after the death of Cregan Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Something very common: Winterfell is in a crisis and needs an adult, male Stark in charge instead of a boy, or worse, a woman. Therefore he takes over. Succession is actually more guidelines than rules. Especially Andal succession in First Men North. There has never been a Queen in the North or Lady Paramount of Winterfell. Never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Bright Blue Eyes is probably right. Due to all the threats at the time the laws of succession were bypassed to have adult lords in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 Skagosi rebellion, Dagon Greyjoy and Raymun Redbeard happened much later than this messed up succession. At one side, we have the daughters of Rickon Stark who died during Daeron I's reign in Dorne. At the other side, we have Cregan's sons from Lynara Stark. Jonnel and Edric married the daughters of Rickon Stark. Jonnel seems to be the eldest son of Cregan and he should succeed Cregan after his death. By marrying and uniting the branches with an elder line, his offspring should be the uncontested Lords but he failed to produce kids. Edric Stark married the other daughter of Rickon Stark and they produced offspring. However, although he was the second son after Jonnel, he was not a Lord, nor his sons were. Why he was passed over, although his offspring had the most Stark blood is a mystery. After Jonnel, Barth became the Lord. He was unmarried and died in the Skagosi Rebellion. Then we have Brandon Stark who didnot reign long (possibly died in the Spring sickness). After him, Beron Stark became the Lord, who probably stayed safe in the Vale with his Royce wife and kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Edric Stark married the other daughter of Rickon Stark and they produced offspring. However, although he was the second son after Jonnel, he was not a Lord, nor his sons were. Why he was passed over, although his offspring had the most Stark blood is a mystery. After Jonnel, Barth became the Lord. He was unmarried and died in the Skagosi Rebellion. Then we have Brandon Stark who didnot reign long (possibly died in the Spring sickness). After him, Beron Stark became the Lord, who probably stayed safe in the Vale with his Royce wife and kids. Edric was dead, one imagines, and his children infants, when Jonnel died, hence, his adult brother took what should have been his kids' birthright (twice over, since their mother Serena was also the proper heir of Lord Cregan to begin with, by default succession law. Per Ran, Lord Brandon's son Rodwell was also the lord before Beron (that it's not capitalized is a mistake in the tree). It's unusual for the husband to move to live with his wife's family, so I doubt they weren't at Winterfell (though I guess they may have been visiting). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Skagosi rebellion, Dagon Greyjoy and Raymun Redbeard happened much later than this messed up succession. At one side, we have the daughters of Rickon Stark who died during Daeron I's reign in Dorne. At the other side, we have Cregan's sons from Lynara Stark. Jonnel and Edric married the daughters of Rickon Stark. Jonnel seems to be the eldest son of Cregan and he should succeed Cregan after his death. By marrying and uniting the branches with an elder line, his offspring should be the uncontested Lords but he failed to produce kids. Edric Stark married the other daughter of Rickon Stark and they produced offspring. However, although he was the second son after Jonnel, he was not a Lord, nor his sons were. Why he was passed over, although his offspring had the most Stark blood is a mystery. After Jonnel, Barth became the Lord. He was unmarried and died in the Skagosi Rebellion. Then we have Brandon Stark who didnot reign long (possibly died in the Spring sickness). After him, Beron Stark became the Lord, who probably stayed safe in the Vale with his Royce wife and kids. The She Wolves of Winterfel will probably clear this up, if it ever is released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I've put forward the idea that 'a daughter comes before an uncle' is actually a succession guideline of Andal origin that only became (sort of) a law after Jaehaerys unified the laws. The most prominent and strongest Andal kingdom, the Reach, is the only (known) kingdom of Westeros which ever had a Queen Regnant, so my best guess is that this rule was only spread throughout all of Westeros by Jaehaerys and Alysanne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 Yes, I remember the Rodwell mistake. Bran counted him as a Lord. He most probably died to the Spring Sickness. Later, Donnor should also be a Lord and bolded because he is among the Lords Bran counted as well. Perhaps Barth thought that it was a necessity during a Skagosi Rebellion to usurp Edric's line. Did Edric's line die during the spring as well? Starks seem to unite elder female lines back into the male line. Perhaps Rickard's wife Lyarra was in fact a descendant of Edric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Per Ran, Lord Brandon's son Rodwell was also the lord before Beron (that it's not capitalized is a mistake in the tree). It's unusual for the husband to move to live with his wife's family, so I doubt they weren't at Winterfell (though I guess they may have been visiting). Do you think you can find his post about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Do you think you can find his post about this? Donnor was a lord. Rodwell, too. Something the third print should already have in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Thanks! I had forgotten about that one! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 From Martin's comments here, is it fair to assume that the "she-wolves" of Winterfell were Lorra Royce, Myriame Manderly, Alys Karstark, Sansa Stark and Lynara Stark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Lorra, Myriame and Alys seem like safe picks, and Lynara if she's still around, but I think it's more likely to be Serena than Sansa, since Serena has kids who were doubly passed over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Lorra, Myriame and Alys seem like safe picks, and Lynara if she's still around, but I think it's more likely to be Serena than Sansa, since Serena has kids who were doubly passed over. That was my original inclination but the thing is, his comments seemingly indicate that all of them were Lady Stark at one time. By that measure, Serena does not qualify, whereas Sansa does. That said, I imagine Sansa would be backing Serena's children to inherit rather than Lorra's. And therein probably lies the major conflict at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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