PhD Research: Adapting Cersei’s Walk of Shame (TV watchers’ thread) [book spoilers]

[Inevittable]

I would be grateful if you could take some time to answer these questions in as much or as little detail as you like, to help me gather data for my thesis. This is one of several research threads about the nudity in ASoIaF and Game of Thrones.

In ADWD chapter 65, Cersei undergoes a walk of shame/penance, some of which we know has recently been filmed for season 5.
a) What do you think are the reasons for that particular punishment in Westeros, ie why must she be naked and shaved? Why must it be in public? Why are no men punished that way? What impact does it have on Cersei’s power in the fictional world?
B) How do you hope the scene will be adapted to screen? How much do you think it is likely to live up to your hopes? If not, what do you think it will actually be like?

Chapter guide
A Storm of Swords, Chapter 66, Tyrion. History of the ‘walk of shame’.
A Feast for Crows, Chapter 3, Cersei. Cersei has a dream in which she is naked and mocked by the court.
A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 54, Cersei. Cersei is imprisoned by the Faith and talks her way out of most of the charges against her.
A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 65, Cersei. Cersei does her walk of penance.
A Dance with Dragons, Epilogue. Cersei. After the walk of penance Cersei appears calm and guarded.


Some small print...
I am currently studying towards a PhD in Media, Culture and Communication at Keele University. My project title is ‘An online ethnography of the fan community of the A Song of Ice and Fire novels and the Game of Thrones television adaptation’ and my aim is to investigate the history and current practices of the fan community of A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones.

With the permission of the owners of this website I am initiating this thread to try and encourage discussion about the topic described above. This topic is just one part of a much larger research project, and you may notice other threads around the forum.

An information sheet is available here, which will hopefully address any questions you may have about the research. The information sheet contains information about the research process, and also information about how your posts to this thread will be used. You are under no obligation to take part, however your help in the project would be much appreciated.

By posting in this thread you are agreeing to the statements on the consent sheet which is part of the information sheet linked to above. By posting in the thread you are agreeing that you are over 18.

If you have any queries please let me know.

PS: There is a thread here which you are very welcome to join to discuss the research project or ask questions.

Many thanks,
Inevittable

[dsug]

I hope the scene is done tastefully and respectfully towards Lena, of course, while still maintaining the vulgarity and humiliation this walk represents.

[Gendry_Goldeneyes]

In my opinion it is more of a punishment of the church than of westeros... maybe she is supposed to be reborn in front of the people in her pure form?

Also id perfer this to gelding which is what seems to be men's punishment in these situations...

Also the power she held was the use of her beauty, charm, and lannister back round. By stripping her down, shaving her, and forcing her to walk past the peasent class and showing her as a mere mortal just like the rest of them. Almost as if she was their equals. Which to someone like her who cares about her nobility and name is torture worse than death.

It also mirrors tywins dismissal of his fathers misstress after his fathers death.

[Seneti]

a)

What do you think are the reasons for that particular punishment in Westeros, ie why must she be naked and shaved?

- I think the lack of clothes is to show that she cannot 'hide' anything from the Faith or the people. It also means a loss of power (fine clothes and jewelry). Shaving used to be a common method of removing a woman's 'power' over men in the middle ages.

Why must it be in public?

- Because it's supposed to be a public confession of guilt and because it increases the feeling of shame.

Why are no men punished that way?

- Because a naked man is a naked man. A naked woman is a whore. (At least in the eyes of patriarchal religions they usually are.)

What impact does it have on Cersei’s power in the fictional world?

- It certainly makes her look less competent (if that's even possible) and removes her from her high and mighty throne in the eyes of the commoners. How much it removes from her actual power as a Lannister remains to be seen.

B) How do you hope the scene will be adapted to screen?

- As faithfully as possible, with Cersei fully naked and in tears by the end of it. Commoners throwing stuff, calling her names, etc.

How much do you think it is likely to live up to your hopes? If not, what do you think it will actually be like?

Lena is a good actress and Nutter is a great director. I think it will be awesome.

[TheQueenMason]

a)Symbolically, they shaved her and undressed her to resemble a newborn baby. The faith is trying to show the people what she is without underneath all the glamour and in the absence of armed guards. Also, they want her to know exactly what people think of her as she has become desensitized to the needs of her people and blinded by an obsession with power. Men are not punished in this manner because women are easier to target for public shaming in Westerosi society. There are higher expectations for women to 'behave,' for example, lords who are promiscuous and get bastards are more forgiven for their sins then ladies who do the same. (Like Daenerys is called a whore by her enemies, for example, but Robb was not). There is however, a theory that the High Septon and his helpers who stormed into King's Landing are actually northmen. The HS is Howland Reed and one of his helpers is a lady Mormont who was given a letter from Robb to deliver to Howland Reed before the Red Wedding happened. This theory claims that they are purposely trying to avenge the death of Ned Stark and the RW under the guise of enforcing the morals and principles of the Faith of the Seven. The rest of the people with them are crannogmen. Cersei would no longer be feared as much by the people. I believe her uncle, Kevin Lannister, is the new Hand and is trying to keep her away from affairs of state so as to stifle any thoughts on overthrowing the monarchy.

b. I hope it would be as hard to watch as it was to read. I hope that there will be nuanced with great ambiguity on whether she deserves this kind of treatment despite what kind of person she is. I am not expecting it to be like the books as the Cersei in the books is less sympathetic and more unidimensional than the Cersei in the show. I am however, expecting the scene to keep to the same spirit that will initiate discussions on the treatment of women in patriarchal society and whether this form of justice really is justice, whatever that means etc. I have high hopes that it will do just that and be great quality.

[ADanceWithCats]

A:

Martin was not particularly verisimilous in his depiction of a medieval society. Men are killed and women are killed or sexually humiliated in his world, but male rape doesn't really exist in Westeros in a systemic manner. Male sexual humiliation is something only the truly depraved (Ramsey) or the barbarians (Dothraki/Astapor) do.

That's, essentially, why there is no male sexual punishment in Westeros: author's preference. :-) He constructed his society as being almost Victorian, not medieval, in having double standards of female vs. male sexuality - and sexuality, specifically promiscuity, as well as having a will to power and ambition, is the crime Cersei is really on trial for. Promiscuity, obviously, threatening the patriarchy by introducing the concept/opportunity of uncertain paternity.

B:

I hope it will be made clear that it is the wrong and hurtful thing, a cruel and unusual punishment, etc. etc.. (Even the actual historical precedent only forced the woman to walk in her petticoats, not naked.) There is a very vicious strain of misogyny in popular culture (cf. Anna Gunn's treatment when she played Skyler White in Breaking Bad) and I'm afraid of comments in the vein of 'Bitch deserved it'/'Finally'/'Feels good'. I was afraid of similar comments also last year, when it came to Tyrion killing Shae. Fortunately, that scene was altered for the purpose of the show - as was Cersei's character, who is far less promiscuous on the show. Some people call it whitewashing... I think that I'm OK with it. Misogyny against pop culture characters feeds into actual, real, current misogyny against real people (frequently, it's the same people making statements about fictional characters and real people), and it's clear that there exists a huge misogyny problem among especially young men (cf.: MRAs, Elliot Rodgers, #NotAllMen, Gamersgate, college rapes, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris). So, the less guilty Cersei actually is, the easier it will be to peg the misogynists for what they are.

[Inevittable]

Thanks for all your answers so far everyone. Please do feel free to discuss with each other as well as answering the questions.

I hope the scene is done tastefully and respectfully towards Lena, of course, while still maintaining the vulgarity and humiliation this walk represents.

Thanks for your answer. Could you explain a little bit more about what you would see as tasteful and respectful, and what you wouldn't?

[...]
Also the power she held was the use of her beauty, charm, and lannister back round. By stripping her down, shaving her, and forcing her to walk past the peasent class and showing her as a mere mortal just like the rest of them. Almost as if she was their equals. Which to someone like her who cares about her nobility and name is torture worse than death.[...]

Thank you. What do you think it is about Cersei being naked that means the peasant class would see her as 'just like the rest of them'? Do you think the punishment undermined the power that being a Lannister gave her?

[...]

- I think the lack of clothes is to show that she cannot 'hide' anything from the Faith or the people. It also means a loss of power (fine clothes and jewelry). Shaving used to be a common method of removing a woman's 'power' over men in the middle ages.

[...]

Thanks for answering. What do you think it means to the people when Cersei next appears in public fully clothed? What do they think of her?

[...] Cersei would no longer be feared as much by the people. I believe her uncle, Kevin Lannister, is the new Hand and is trying to keep her away from affairs of state so as to stifle any thoughts on overthrowing the monarchy.[...]

Thank you. In contrast, do you think that for some female characters their nudity empowers them?

[...] He constructed his society as being almost Victorian, not medieval, in having double standards of female vs. male sexuality - and sexuality, specifically promiscuity, as well as having a will to power and ambition, is the crime Cersei is really on trial for. Promiscuity, obviously, threatening the patriarchy by introducing the concept/opportunity of uncertain paternity.

[...]

I hope it will be made clear that it is the wrong and hurtful thing, a cruel and unusual punishment, etc. etc.. [...]

Thanks for taking the time to answer. In your opinion, what is it about Cersei's nudity in this scene that makes it sexual? How do you think that the show could depict how cruel the punishment is?

[Seneti]

Thanks for answering. What do you think it means to the people when Cersei next appears in public fully clothed? What do they think of her?

My guess: nobody will ever let her live it down that she was paraded naked through the streets of King's Landing. I don't think any commoner would dare to speak out publicly about her, but it will certainly leave a big dent in her air of authority.

[dsug]

Thanks for all your answers so far everyone. Please do feel free to discuss with each other as well as answering the questions.

Thanks for your answer. Could you explain a little bit more about what you would see as tasteful and respectful, and what you wouldn't?

Well I just don't think they should show Lena naked more than they need to. I mean sure, get that big money shot of her disrobing on the steps and baring herself to all of Westeros. And get some good footage of her walking and the mud being thrown, etc, etc. It is obviously vital to the scene, and Lena Headey is a professional.

But that's it. The rest should be from the back or very wide, so the view of her is kind of obscured. Obviously this is going to be a very powerful scene, and Lena will handle it with grace, but she deserves some modesty. I mean like, she has a kid. She is a very respected actress. She's 41. she doesn't need to be paraded around on national television.

[Gertrude]

I don't think this punishment is exclusively used by the Faith, as has been mentioned, Tywin did it to his father's mistress. As to why - because they can. Looking through history, we can see strains of thoughts about a woman's hair being her treasure, or something to temp men with. It gives her power. A woman's hair is her glory, doesn't it say that in the Bible? Even look at more modern literature and the horror that Jo engenders when she cuts her hair in Little Women, and the young wife in O. Henry's The Gift of the Magi - it is literally her greatest treasure that she sacrifices.In the 20's when women began cutting their hair short and idealizing a more boyish figure, it was a rebellion against these ideals. It's tied up in a woman's looks and femininity. Without long glorious hair, you are less of a woman. It's also a vanity, which of course is sin.

We don't only see it with Cersei, Tyrion shaves Pycelle and we see how the loss of his luxurious beard diminishes him. He can't hide behind it and we notice his frailties instead. I guess hair is a distraction and it's easier to hide behind it. With Cersei stripped and shaved, she has no where to hide. Her physical frailties and flaws are laid open for all to see. It is easier to realize that she is just a woman after all, no different than any other. Still more beautiful than most, but not perfect or intrinsically better. There are no beautiful gowns or jewels to distract and dazzle you - you just see her.

Why public? If it not public, then it's not doing it's job as a punishment. They want Cersei to be humiliated and humbled. If you don't give everyone the chance to witness the shame, then it's easier for Cersei to blow it off. Well, it was only the Faith who saw me, but not the court and the realm, so I'll just wear a wig for a while and pretend this never happened. No - everyone saw you Cersei, stretch-marks and all. You will forever wonder who is sniggering at you behind your back, or worse, who secretly pities you. Her authority and how she wishes to present her public face is forever damaged.

Why are only women punished like this? Well, we did see Pycelle punished by Tyrion in this manner, and we do see the wine merchant who tried to kill Dany dragged behind the horses naked (or is that show only, damn my memory). So there are elements of it here and there, but we've not seen anyone else made to do a public walk such as this. Can we be sure that it is only reserved for women? My gut says it probably is. Pycell's shaving was not an officially sanctioned act, and the wine merchant was not in Westeros. I should re-read this before answering, but Osney is being condemned for the murder of the previous High Septon rather than sleeping with Cersei. I mean, I'm sure that doesn't sit well with the Faith, but sleeping with Cersei after Robert's death isn't a crime, is it? However, Cersei's walk is purely about her sleeping around after Robert's death. She didn't confess to anything else and her trial is in the future. It's a controlling move to keep women in their 'place'. I think it's well established that Westeros is a patriarchy as evidenced by Cersei's musings on how she and Jaime were treated differently.

As to my expectations of the scene, I hope it is as powerful as the books. I think it can be, but in a different way. Instead of seeing inside her head, we can watch the slow erosion of her confidence and power. I do think it's important to see her naked for this scene to have the power it deserves. I don't think we need to linger on it, but it's important to see her laid bare. I'm afraid they will over-emphasise the nudity. I don't know how I'd draw that line, but there is a line. There needs to be a dignity about it even as the Faith attempts to strip it all away.

[C.T. Phipps]

Public humiliation is something which is usually much more common in history than the show proves. Of course, on a basic level, this is supposed to be a fairly "gentle" punishment.

They're not removing fingers, torturing, or beheading her.

Just shaming her.

Which in some ways is actually much much nicer than the punishment men get for crimes. However, THIS is the punishment people are up in arms about.

Of course, shes being punished for something no man WOULD be punished for too since she's not an adulteress. Just a fornicater (which is such a stupid word). Adulterer would be a capital crime.

So it's just a sign of Westeros' innate misogyny.

[Ghosts Lunch]

In terms of her crimes, if we recall she has admitted to adultery but will have trial by combat presumably for the others

So similar to dragging an old candidate for High Septon from a brothel and publicly humiliating him it is the somewhat female equivalent of this, eg she has used her body/sexuality "innapropriately" in their eyes and must undergo public humiliation as atonement, eg the naked walk and shaving etc. Similar to public lashings or the stockades perhaps

There is a deeper political issue here as well, these are religious extremists borne out of the desolation of the land and the religious buildings in the Riverlands in particular.

The Sparrow movement blames the old Aristocratic system of order/power and all of the personal excesses it represents for this (they even lock up their own Septons for being to fat for example). As we can see from the guards disregard for Jaimie when he wants to see Lancel they have an attitude of complete disregard for the nobility/"old order"

From this perspective, in the build-up we first see the High Septon/Sparrow engages Cersei in a negotiation, eg for forgiving a crown debt which relates to finances of he old order he doesen't care about he wins the concession of authority for the religion of the seven to re-militarise which basically means the ability to build it's own Army, enforce it's will and project hard as well as soft power

Once he has achieved Tommens stamp on that he can go about dismantling the power of the old nobility, this firstly means destroying her image and severely undercutting her political influence and sense of prestige. Recall Varys's riddle about the sell sword, Septon etc, and most importantly the point about power residing where people think it resides

Once her image is smashed her political influence amongst the masses in KL and perhaps the realm at large once they hear of it has been severely undermined and she holds no real power as such outside of Casterly Rock.mAmongst the women in particular who were quick to point out her stretch marks etc, a sign that she is not the all beautiful and perfect monarch but just as mortal as everyone else. s

We see this in the entertainment industry and politics all the time, there is a machine that carefully preps and cultivates the public image of given celebrities/public figures

It will be interesting to see what happens in TWOW, this has had the impact of not only undercutting Cersei in particular, but also the Lannister/Baratheon institution of the Iron Throne but also the Tyrells who are associated with it by marriage and with Margaery also on trial.

The Tyrells will be better disposed to extricating themselves given the Queen of Thorns is a political match for the High Septon and Bannerman Tarly will be able to capably handle the situation militarily but they will have to focus on the Reach and withdraw from KL once Margaery is secure given the problems with Euron and the Ironborn

Obviously any other claimants to the Iron Throne won't have the specific issues relating to Cersei WoS, eg Aegon in the nearby Stormlands if he was to take KL but there is still the point that the institution of the Iron Throne will be tainted in the eyes of the mob of KL

and that trust in the wider regions will be diminished given the breaking of the social contract through the ravaging of the Riverlands, eg the Iron Throne and the structure of order is meant to provide order and food for winter. History shows that if one power structure does not provide this then it collapses and the populace directs it's acquiescence to an alternative regime that will

The point here then is probably because the High Septon has an end-game of a religiously inspired revolution where Westeros would become a Theocracy and the power becomes oriented towards the institution of the High Septon where the Crown/Iron a Throne is inhabited by meek Baelor the Blessed types rather than the a Crown controlling meek High septons as at the start of the books.

It can be complicated to explore but think of the Pope in medieval times, they have influence over minor Kings but powerful kingdoms not so much.

I think this is great the books have thrown this factor in, it is an extra headache where contenders not only have to compete against other claimants but other social institutions. There is some backstory in the lore I haven't read yet, basically dealing with the reason why the religion of the seven were banned on having a military in the first place given there was a large conflict between a Targaryen King and the religion of the Seven which might be about to be re-visited

There's some interesting parallels between the tension/friction that exists between Stannis/Melisandre, they are allied for the moment but have different end-game agendas and are even beginning to diverge.

Stannis is particularly interesting, as he is now contemplating sacrificing Theon before a Heart Tree. If Stannis took the Iron Throne I can imagine a fairly bitter power struggle would ensue that would be more bitter than any of the other claimants and the High Septon

Then there's the religion of the Old Gods, in this case House Stark is being literally merged with it. Pretty ironic given Bran is Robb's heir as KiTN though he will likely never claim it. In terms of the north being in the seven kingdoms he is the next Lord Stark and even then the north worships the old Gods where the religion of seven hold no power

[C.T. Phipps]

Yeah, the Walk of Shame is pretty powerful as a symbol the Faith of the Seven is no longer "weak."

"We can force the Queen to do this now."

[Ghosts Lunch]

Will be interesting to see the reach of the sparrow movement, eg is it just KL and Ropiverlands,

the "moderate" Septons would be in areas untouched and I wonder of there will be a split by less radical elects appalled at their actions

Whatever happens it should make for good reading and viewing

[Ghosts Lunch]

As to my expectations of the scene, I hope it is as powerful as the books. I think it can be, but in a different way. Instead of seeing inside her head, we can watch the slow erosion of her confidence and power. I do think it's important to see her naked for this scene to have the power it deserves. I don't think we need to linger on it, but it's important to see her laid bare. I'm afraid they will over-emphasise the nudity. I don't know how I'd draw that line, but there is a line. There needs to be a dignity about it even as the Faith attempts to strip it all away.

I think it's more important they are showing the fact that everyone is seeing her naked rather than her nudity itself, any shots of her would have to be more about her body language, stumbling etc and the comments being directed at her. The book focuses on her mentality and the comments

I find it intriguing that Qyburn chose Ser Robert Strong to be pious with rainbow themed plumes etc, this is setting the stage for Ser Robert Strong and his public victories to carry a counter political weight/message designed to counter the theocracy of the a High Sparrow IMO, eg if Ser Robert wins and High Sparrow champion loses it undermines the High Sparrow

Pretty much why they couldn't poison Russel Crowe in Gladiator, either party has to destroy the name of the other before they can finish them off physically

This is the problem the Lannisters/Freys have with the RW, Robb is potentially a highly romantic legendary figure in death because he never lost a battle and was undone by foul means which offends even the simplest persons most basic sense of hospitality, he may not have made for a politically savvy ruler ala Robert but his memory will never be bogged down by such decisions.mWe can already see that despite the conditions almost every lord reveres the name Stark etc because of the institutional way they did govern, eg Winter City etc.

Compare that to Tywin, he was greatly feared and respected but the prestige of the Lannister name starts going down almost immediately upon his demise because of practical governance decisions made by Cersei. Ironically it is in the dwarf son he detested so much that the ability to govern soundly and protect the prestige of the family name was to be found...

[TheQueenMason]

"Thank you. In contrast, do you think that for some female characters their nudity empowers them?"

Dany's nudity empowered her with Drogo. It sort of tamed him sexually. He was pretty violent before that.

[Inevittable]

Thanks everyone, it's great to see such interest in this discussion. Please do keep adding more if you have something to say.

"Thank you. In contrast, do you think that for some female characters their nudity empowers them?"

Dany's nudity empowered her with Drogo. It sort of tamed him sexually. He was pretty violent before that.

That's an interesting answer. What do you think the reason is that in Dany's case her nudity was empowering, but in Cersei's it was disempowering?

[...] Even look at more modern literature and the horror that Jo engenders when she cuts her hair in Little Women, and the young wife in O. Henry's The Gift of the Magi - it is literally her greatest treasure that she sacrifices.In the 20's when women began cutting their hair short and idealizing a more boyish figure, it was a rebellion against these ideals. It's tied up in a woman's looks and femininity. Without long glorious hair, you are less of a woman. It's also a vanity, which of course is sin.[...]

Those are some really great comparisons. Thanks for your input. Can you think of any examples from film, TV or books where there is a similar punishment to the walk of shame?

[...]
There is a deeper political issue here as well, these are religious extremists borne out of the desolation of the land and the religious buildings in the Riverlands in particular.[...]

Do you think that the WoS was a case of the Faith stretching its muscles, and pushing at boundaries, or do you think it was confident with the power it had and what the outcome would be?

Yeah, the Walk of Shame is pretty powerful as a symbol the Faith of the Seven is no longer "weak."

"We can force the Queen to do this now."

What do you think it was about the naked walk of shame that was a powerful symbol, eg compared to if they had just locked the queen away or refused to recognise Tommen?

[Janicia]

Those are some really great comparisons. Thanks for your input. Can you think of any examples from film, TV or books where there is a similar punishment to the walk of shame?

Many depictions of Christ in a loincloth while carrying the cross through the abusive crowd.

Lady Godiva. Her story is much less negative than Cersei's walk of shame, but she did expose herself to a huge number of commoners in exchange for something she wanted from the patriarchal figure.

Cleopatra killed herself to avoid being paraded through Rome in a triumph.

[TheQueenMason]

"What do you think the reason is that in Dany's case her nudity was empowering, but in Cersei's it was disempowering?"

First of all, when I say 'empowering' I mean from the perspective of other characters who perceive Dany/Cersei, not from my point of view, just to clarify. Dany's nudity was empowering to her over Drogo because, quite frankly, he may not think of her as a threat to him or his power in any way since the Dothraki culture discriminates against women (a lot more than Westerosi culture). And she is giving him sex, which he does not seem to mind. Also, as I recall, when she was nude in public (in the books), she was undressed as part of a ritual (in Vaes Dothrak) which is considered sacred to the Dothraki.

In Cersei's case, she was being shamed publicly. In Westerosi culture, sexual activity and anything associated with it (including nudity) is considered a private affair and it would be taboo to have sex in the middle of a crowd or dance party (unless it was in a slum tavern where this kind of behaviour is expected, but it is still taboo) let alone be naked. On top of that, one's social status is represented in the quality of clothing one wears. A royalty should have rare fabric with rare colours while a peasant should have what he/she can salvage from animal skins. Having no clothes is associated with extreme poverty and deprevation.

[Ser Duncan The Average]

A - It's well known that George RR Martin likes to take historical events and use them in his stories and there was a time that Jane Shore a mistress of King Edward the IV was forced to walk through town in her kirtle as punishment for promiscuity among other things. This is likely the basis for this punishment. Within the story, I expect the reason that the walk of shame is used as a punishment is in order to humiliate the person forced to undertake it. As to why no men are forced to make the walk of shame, in Westeros men probably would not consider it shameful so much as mildly embarrassing so it lacks effectiveness as a punishment. In regards to what impact it has on Cercei's power, this is addressed in ADWD when Kevan thinks to himself that "Cersei was soiled goods now, her power at an end. Every baker’s boy and beggar in the city had seen her in her shame and every tart and tanner from Flea Bottom to Pisswater Bend had gazed upon her nakedness, their eager eyes crawling over her breasts and belly and woman’s parts. No queen could expect to rule again after that. In gold and silk and emeralds Cersei had been a queen, the next thing to a goddess; naked, she was only human."

B - The vast majority of the scene is played out with Cercei's internal monologue. This will make it hard to faithfully adapt the walk of shame, whilst still retaining it's power. I would be pleased if they converted some of her thoughts to spoken dialogue in order to show just how strongly this punishment affects her and why it affects her so strongly. That being said, I would also be pleased if D&D provide the story of Tywin forcing his fathers mistress to under go a similar punishment, as this adds an interesting side note to Cersei's own misfortune.