PhD Research: Nudity in GoT - power and the press [book spoilers]

[Inevittable]

I would be grateful if you could take some time to answer these questions in as much or as little detail as you like, to help me gather data for my thesis. This is one of several research threads about the nudity in ASoIaF and Game of Thrones.

1) What differences have you noticed in representations of nudity in the novels and on the show? (For example think about which character is naked, what their role is, what the context is and the frequency.)

2) What similarities have you noticed in representations of nudity in the novels and on the show? (For example think about which character is naked, what their role is, what the context is and the frequency.)

3) What do you think about the way that the nudity in GoT is talked about in the press and on the forum? (examples include this SNL sketch, this Brian Cogman interview, this Stephen Dillane interview, this Natalie Dormer interview, this comparison between GoT and True Blood, this article in the Daily Mail

4) What role do you think power and gender play in scenes of nudity in GoT?

Some small print...

I am currently studying towards a PhD in Media, Culture and Communication at Keele University. My project title is ‘An online ethnography of the fan community of the A Song of Ice and Fire novels and the Game of Thrones television adaptation’ and my aim is to investigate the history and current practices of the fan community of A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones.

With the permission of the owners of this website I am initiating this thread to try and encourage discussion about the topic described above. This topic is just one part of a much larger research project, and you may notice other threads around the forum.

An information sheet is available here, which will hopefully address any questions you may have about the research. The information sheet contains information about the research process, and also information about how your posts to this thread will be used. You are under no obligation to take part, however your help in the project would be much appreciated.

By posting in this thread you are agreeing to the statements on the consent sheet which is part of the information sheet linked to above. By posting in the thread you are agreeing that you are over 18.

If you have any queries please let me know.

PS: There is a thread here which you are very welcome to join to discuss the research project or ask questions.

Many thanks,

Inevittable

[Lady Grimshaw]

1. Missandei in the books is 10. I have always believed that they aged her up on the show simply because they wanted to show a new pair of boobs. And did they

show those boobs? Yes, they did. To a guy her character has no way of having sex with because he's a eunuch. They wouldn't show her boobs if she were still 10.

They could've cast a capable 10 year old. They managed it with the Stark children.

2. They kept Dany's nudity in the show pretty simliar to the books. She is shown have sex with Drogo in the books and on the show frequently.

[Lady Grimshaw]

3. I think the press about the nudity on the show is pretty spot on sometimes and amusing. Dragons, blood, and boobs. And the occasional ice zombie.

4. I think power and gender plays a stong role. Dany started gaining more power and acceptance of herself when she started

taking control in the bedroom with Drogo, instead of just enduring what he did to her.

[juanml82]

I don't want to sound rude but... scratch that, I do want to sound rude. You aren't making a high school assignment. Shouldn't you be answering those questions?

[Hiram McDrogon]

I don't want to sound rude but... scratch that, I do want to sound rude. You aren't making a high school assignment. Shouldn't you be answering those questions?

Not if it's a study of how different people feel about the issue. If you're studying people's opinions, then you're going to be asking people's opinions.

[Janicia]

1) What differences have you noticed in representations of nudity in the novels and on the show? (For example think about which character is naked, what their role is, what the context is and the frequency.)

2) What similarities have you noticed in representations of nudity in the novels and on the show? (For example think about which character is naked, what their role is, what the context is and the frequency.)

3) What do you think about the way that the nudity in GoT is talked about in the press and on the forum?

4) What role do you think power and gender play in scenes of nudity in GoT?

I think the portrayal of nudity and sex is similar in both the books and the show. Both use sex for titillation (easy examples: Arienne, Asha, Ygritte in books; Ygritte, Ros, Melissandre in show). Both show character development through sex (Tyrion, Cersei, Jon). Both are generally more interested in sexy times with young beautiful people than older uglier people (Dany, Arienne, and Sansa spend a lot more time thinking about sex in the books than Ned and Davos, Tyrion only has sex with beautiful people). Both have a lot of background sex/nudity (In the books: lots of nudity and public sex in Essos, Dany and other women with breasts sticking out in Qarth, women being raped around Arya, lots of brothels; in the show: lots of brothels and sexposition scenes).

Both have a lot of rape and sexual violence, though the show generally tones down the rape from the books (Ramsay's' hunt was toned down, the Mountain's exploits were toned down, rapes around Arya were omitted, the Wildling and Ironborn rape cultures described in the books haven't shown up in the show, the bard didn't try to rape Sansa, Lollys' gang rape was skipped, Sansa wasn't stripped in the throne room, Sansa didn't have to strip on her wedding night, Cersei wasn't raped repeatedly by Robert). There are a few counter examples - Dany's wedding night was rape in the show but not the books (though Drogo was subsequently rough with Dany in the books), and the Jaime / Cersei sept scene was rape in the show and ambiguous in the books. The show also makes some things explicit that were only hinted at in the books, like the sexual relationships between Melissandre&Stannis and Renly&Loras, and Theon's complete castration.

The show gets a lot of attention for portraying a lot of sex, nudity, and rape, but I think people tend to lose sight of the fact that the books also portray a lot of sex, nudity, and rape. In the books, the women are younger and some of the rape is more horrific.

It is frequently asserted in this forum that season 5 will focus more on Dorne than the Ironborn because Dorne is sexier. And that Arienne was cut in favor of sand snakes because they're sexier. But Asha, Victarion, Euron, and Arienne all have big sex scenes in books 4-5, and none of the sand snakes do. So the show probably cut out a bunch of sex with that adaptation choice rather than introduced it.

The books provide a lot of other content in between the sex. In adapting, the show removes a lot of the in-between content so I think the sex feels more frequent in the show. But mostly, I think people take sex and nudity more seriously on screen than in the book, and react more strongly a scene in visual form than they would just reading it.

There are definitely differences on which characters are naked more often. Cersei is far more sexually active in the books. The show makes a big deal of Missandei and Margery in revealing costumes; those characters aren't portrayed that way in the books. Robb's wife was far sexier in the show than in the book. Asha in the books is more sexual than Yara in the show.

The show frequently uses sexposition (often using Doreah or Ros) in a way that the books don't, but conversely, the books often have a character (like Sansa or Arienne) thinking about sex in a way that the show doesn't. I think those differences are more about how to deal with a point of view structure than a difference in beliefs about the portrayal of sex.

[Inevittable]

[...]

4. I think power and gender plays a stong role. Dany started gaining more power and acceptance of herself when she started taking control in the bedroom with Drogo, instead of just enduring what he did to her.

Thanks. What do you think this change in Dany did to the audience's thoughts about her? What do you think of how this has progressed to the scene in which she commands Daario to strip?

Not if it's a study of how different people feel about the issue. If you're studying people's opinions, then you're going to be asking people's opinions.

Spot on.

[...] Both are generally more interested in sexy times with young beautiful people than older uglier people (Dany, Arienne, and Sansa spend a lot more time thinking about sex in the books than Ned and Davos, Tyrion only has sex with beautiful people). [...]

Interesting! Have you noticed any differences in the ways that the nudity of different classes is treated between book/show? Eg upper class Cersei and Sansa compared to lower class prostitutes and peasants.

[Janicia]

Interesting! Have you noticed any differences in the ways that the nudity of different classes is treated between book/show? Eg upper class Cersei and Sansa compared to lower class prostitutes and peasants.

It seems like Westerosi in both books and show generally view upper class nudity as more of a scandal/event than lower class nudity. But all of the main Westerosi characters are upper class or upper-class-adjacent and aren't very interested in the day-to-day lives of lower class Westerosi. There aren't many lower class female characters that aren't prostitutes in either books or show.

I get the impression that it is much easier for the show to bring in unknown actress (typically playing a lower class character) for titillation than to get one of the stars (typically playing a higher class character) to strip. But most of the female cast members of an appropriate age have had nude scenes; we've seen a lot of upper class flesh. The nude scenes of the prominent (main/recurring cast) actresses on the show tend to be more respectful than those of the unknown actresses - there is a character reason for the nudity, we see their faces, they have lines, there is artistry in the shooting. But that is about the actresses more than it is about the character class. I don't think the show treated naked Ygritte, Missandei, Osha, Doreah, and Shae with less respect than naked Talisa, Margery, Melissandre, and Dany. Ros is the big outlier.

In the books, opinions on class nudity varies at least somewhat with character points of view. Arya isn't phased by any nudity. Tyrion leers at everybody. Sansa and Cersei are more class conscious.

[Inevittable]

Hello all, happy new year! I'm getting back into my research again after taking a few weeks off for Christmas, and am still interested in your answers to the questions at the start of the thread, or your responses to other people's posts.

[...]

Hi Lady Grimshaw, just wondering if you'd had chance to think about the questions I asked above.

[...]The nude scenes of the prominent (main/recurring cast) actresses on the show tend to be more respectful than those of the unknown actresses - there is a character reason for the nudity, we see their faces, they have lines, there is artistry in the shooting. But that is about the actresses more than it is about the character class. I don't think the show treated naked Ygritte, Missandei, Osha, Doreah, and Shae with less respect than naked Talisa, Margery, Melissandre, and Dany. Ros is the big outlier.

Thanks for answering my questions again. Just one more, can you explain a bit more about how you think that respect and artistry can be shown in a nude scene? I'm not saying you're wrong - I'd just like to know how you interpret those things.