Inevittable Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I would be grateful if you could take some time to answer these questions in as much or as little detail as you like, to help me gather data for my thesis. This is one of several research threads about the nudity in ASoIaF and Game of Thrones. 1) In ADWD chapter 36, it is strongly hinted that Dany and Daario begin their first sexual encounter. At the beginning of chapter 43 Dany wakes after another night spent with Daario. The scene on the show played out differently (see here). a) What were your hopes and expectations of the scene from the books, and how well (or not) did the scene in the show live up to them? B) How do you think the adapted scene compares to other scenes of nudity in this show or on other shows? c) What impact do you think the scene (book and TV) has on the balance of power in Daario and Danys relationship, and on the power held by each character individually in GoT as a whole? Chapter guide A Dance with Dragons, 36, Daenerys VI A Dance with Dragons, 43, Daenerys VII Episode guide S04E06 The Laws Of God And Men 11th May 2014 S04E07 Mockingbird 18th May 2014 2) In Mockingbird Selyse interrupts Melisandre while she is taking a bath, but Melisandre invites her in to her room and the two have a discussion, mostly while Melisandre is naked and Selyse is fully clothed (see here). a) Is there a scene from the books that you think this scene is adapted from? B) How do you think the adapted scene compares to other scenes of nudity in this show or on other shows? c) What do you think is the reason for nudity this scene? (For example, think about how different it would be if Melisandre had been fully dressed or if it had been Selyse who was naked.) Some small print... I am currently studying towards a PhD in Media, Culture and Communication at Keele University. My project title is An online ethnography of the fan community of the A Song of Ice and Fire novels and the Game of Thrones television adaptation and my aim is to investigate the history and current practices of the fan community of A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones. With the permission of the owners of this website I am initiating this thread to try and encourage discussion about the topic described above. This topic is just one part of a much larger research project, and you may notice other threads around the forum. An information sheet is available here, which will hopefully address any questions you may have about the research. The information sheet contains information about the research process, and also information about how your posts to this thread will be used. You are under no obligation to take part, however your help in the project would be much appreciated. By posting in this thread you are agreeing to the statements on the consent sheet which is part of the information sheet linked to above. By posting in the thread you are agreeing that you are over 18. If you have any queries please let me know. PS: There is a thread here which you are very welcome to join to discuss the research project or ask questions. Many thanks, Inevittable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Dragon Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 2) In Mockingbird Selyse interrupts Melisandre while she is taking a bath, but Melisandre invites her in to her room and the two have a discussion, mostly while Melisandre is naked and Selyse is fully clothed (see here).a) Is there a scene from the books that you think this scene is adapted from?b )How do you think the adapted scene compares to other scenes of nudity in this show or on other shows?c) What do you think is the reason for nudity this scene? (For example, think about how different it would be if Melisandre had been fully dressed or if it had been Selyse who was naked.) a) Not necessarily, Melisandre did not have a lot to do in the latter part of A Storm of Swords so for season four I believe they decided to portray Mel's relationship with the Stannis household a little more. Although Selyse and Mels relationship is talked about in the books and I think the show has done a good job of portraying there multi-layered relationship. b) I think the nudity in this particular scene is unique compared to the other nude scenes as it is not sexually motivated from a character point of view. It does not involve people in a sexual moment with one another like the other nude scenes and therefore I think causes a different sort of audience reaction. c) I believe the reason for the nudity was to show the parallel of the two characters and the complexity of there relationship. Melisandre commands the scene, confident towards Queen Selyse, She knows she has a power over her within the Stannis camp yet chooses to be humble and respectful. Selyse however becomes immediatley insecure upon seeing Mel naked, you can see by her reactions how she is part in awe of Melisandre and part jealous of her beauty and otherworldly presence. Although I also get the feeing Mel is using her nudity like a lions mane in this scene, portraying her dominance and regal beauty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQueenMason Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 1. a. Dany in the show is older and therefore more mature in her decision-making capabilities and approach to her sexuality. Daario is a complete goof on page, but more realistic on screen; he had to be different, and I am thankful for that (although I don't get the asshole alpha male vibe that made him attractive to Dany, but I don't mind the actor's interpretation). I expected more intimacy (not necessarily nudity), though, but that might come next season since it is only the beginning. The show, so far is living up to the purpose of Dany's first sexual encounter since her overpowering first husband, who she was only second to in class, died. It is too early to say any more. b. A good first step to showing more male nudity, although there wasn't enough, in my humble opinion. I don't enjoy looking at naked people, I don't really care about the nudity. I am more interested in the purpose it serves for character dimensionality and narrative development. So far, the existing imbalance of female vs male nudity in the show is hindering the narrative development of these scenes and seems like a waste of valuable screen time. As if the show is forced to have them because there is some set quota for female nudity. c. Book: the sexual relationship between Dany and Daario serves one subtle and ingeneously executed narrative purpose and that is to tempt Dany into the path of war and away from the path of peace. I was introduced to this idea from this series of essays: https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/02/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-iii-danys-struggle-with-herself/ and have since adopted it as my own interpretation that that is the primary objective of the relationship. Secondarily, I think that Dany still maintains her level of power relative to Daario. And that he respects her authority, and that his occasional fits of disrespect for that, for lack of a better word, is only out of care for her. He still remains loyal to her and executes her commands beyond her expectations. Show: there is only one scene we get that shows what the off-screen dynamic is between the two characters after the sexual act, therefore the following assessment is inherently incomplete and will probably change after season 5. Daario seemed to have influenced Dany to act violently against her enemies, in the same manner as in the book. But in the series, it is ambiguous whether or not Daario is trying to influence her for his own benefit (and is successful) or for her benefit or that Dany still maintains her level of awareness that she so clearly does in the books (she reminds herself what he is and that this relationship could be temporary). Either way, this puts Jorah in a very awkward situation. He has to share his influence with another extremely competent battle commander. His influence with Dany decreases. Same with Barristan, but he only knows how to serve and doesn't necessarily desire power. Grey Worm will obey and almost worships Dany, Missandei serves and doesn't seem to desire power either. 2. a. I don't think so. But it does serve a similar purpose to Melisandre's POV chapter, which is to show that most of her tricks are not magical. Keeping the magic grounded in reality and illustrating that its supernatural nature is all in the mind. b. It's a relief that we get to see female reaction to female nudity and that the reaction is not entirely sexual, but mostly jealousy. Melisandre is beautiful and young and Stannis got turned on by her, and Selyse is ugly and getting old and Stannis is not really interested in her. I don't watch too many other shows. c. As I said in b. (Selyse's character dimensionality) and reflects the scene as a whole that Melisandre is revealing her secrets and that those secrets really aren't that exciting (no sexual reaction from Selyse, it was just Mel's body, that's it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevittable Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 [...] B) I think the nudity in this particular scene is unique compared to the other nude scenes as it is not sexually motivated from a character point of view. It does not involve people in a sexual moment with one another like the other nude scenes and therefore I think causes a different sort of audience reaction. c) I believe the reason for the nudity was to show the parallel of the two characters and the complexity of there relationship. Melisandre commands the scene, confident towards Queen Selyse, She knows she has a power over her within the Stannis camp yet chooses to be humble and respectful. Selyse however becomes immediatley insecure upon seeing Mel naked, you can see by her reactions how she is part in awe of Melisandre and part jealous of her beauty and otherworldly presence. Although I also get the feeing Mel is using her nudity like a lions mane in this scene, portraying her dominance and regal beauty.Thanks for your detailed answers. To help me further, could you explain more about the bits I have highlighted above please? ie - what sort of audience reaction have you seen to other nude scenes, and what reaction have you seen to this one? Do you think Melisandre's nudity gives her power in the scene, or do you think that she is naked because she already has the power? Does Melisandre's beauty give her power, or is it something else? 1. [...]. I expected more intimacy (not necessarily nudity), though, but that might come next season since it is only the beginning. [...].b. A good first step to showing more male nudity, although there wasn't enough, in my humble opinion. I don't enjoy looking at naked people, I don't really care about the nudity. I am more interested in the purpose it serves for character dimensionality and narrative development. So far, the existing imbalance of female vs male nudity in the show is hindering the narrative development of these scenes and seems like a waste of valuable screen time. As if the show is forced to have them because there is some set quota for female nudity.c. [...]c. As I said in b. (Selyse's character dimensionality) and reflects the scene as a whole that Melisandre is revealing her secrets and that those secrets really aren't that exciting (no sexual reaction from Selyse, it was just Mel's body, that's it).Thanks to you as well. Could you explain the points I have highlighted in a bit more detail please? Ie, how do you think intimacy between Dany and Daario could be shown without nudity? There has been male nudity on the show before (Drogo, the wineseller, Hodor for example), was there something about Daario's nude scene that stood out (pardon the phrasing!)? What affect do you think it would have on the show if there was more balance between male and female nudity? Do you think that the male characters would react differently to Melisandre revealing how her 'magic' works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Dragon Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 "What sort of audience reaction have you seen to other nude scenes?" Well Game of Thrones is well known for it nude scenes, mostly beautiful woman being the nude ones, and the reaction for the most part is one of sexual attraction at least from the perspective of a male. Not to say that this particular scene does not convey that as by physically seeing other peoples reaction to it it clearly did, but it also had another layer to it. It shows us how confident in herself and how much power over others Melisandre has, to stand fully and confidently naked in front of a woman who knows she had sex with her husband, and who she sees as 'her Queen'. Initially when you see her naked yes it feels the same as the other nude scenes, but when you begin to see hoe Selyse reacts to her nudity and how Melisandre portrays herself during the scene you begin to feel the nudity was used to show viewers the dynamics between the two. "Do you think Melisandre's nudity gives her power in the scene?" Not so much that the nudity gives her power but more confirms the fact that she is powerful and dominant, almost like a painful reminder to Selyse that Mel is all she is not and wants to be. Melisandre is aware that her beauty is necessary and essential in allowing her to achieve her goals. This is hinted at in a quote by Melisandre during the scene after she tells Selyse she didn't use a potion in order to seduce Stannis. Melisandre here also addresses that she is aware Selyse has been looking at her body..."Don't be upset, men never crave what they already have, its only flesh that needs what it needs" Mel is fully aware she needs to be beautiful in order to manipulate men to get what she wants and this quote along with other hints suggests Melisandre may well be using magic in order to appear more youthful and attractive. "Does Melisandre's beauty give her power, or is it something else?" Like I discussed in the previous answer, beauty is a big part of it but her intelligence and knowledge are also a big part of it. Her power comes from a combination of these things but she wouldn't have it if she was lacking either of them. She also is very wise especially for someone who appears her age which also points to the fact that she may be far older than she appears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQueenMason Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Re: more detailed explanation " I expected more intimacy (not necessarily nudity)": There wasn't enough interaction between the two, but that could be because most of the build-up to their love affair (assuming it will happen) will occur next season. The scene did not feel legitimate because it wasn't long enough for enough to allow for depth. I feel that Dany deserves more fleshed-out romantic scenes because I really care about her. Sex is one form of intimacy. Flirting is another. More flirting, I guess (can add to the humour in a dark story). "A good first step to showing more male nudity, although there wasn't enough, in my humble opinion": what stood out to me is that a female character, who is intelligent and powerful and grounded (basically, 3-D), genuinely enjoys a man's nakedness (and what will follow). I've never seen that before on this show (or much anywhere else, but I don't watch a lot of other stuff). I always see male characters enjoying the female nudity, and it feels alienating because there's no balance. I thought they should have shown it ALL like they show ALL of the female parts. Don't understand why that didn't happen. Women are people too and have the same needs as men. "Melisandre is revealing her secrets and that those secrets really aren't that exciting": Well, she gives an impression that the red god is all powerful and does her magic tricks. But in this scene, she reveals that it's just BS. Just a marketing strategy to get people to convert and follow the Rh'llor (?) dude. If there were more balance between male and female nudity, the show will get more interesting because those scenes would be more legitimate to the story from my point of view. The show would be praised for breaking new ground... again. Male characters would not react differently to Mel's fake magic just because they are male. Stannis will be disappointed and feel like a fool. Davos would be confused and would need more time to think about it because he started believing in the possibility that her magic and prophecies may be real. I don't believe that being male would determine how you would react to this sort of revelation. If you mean instead of Selyse you have Stannis in that scene, then heterosexual males with some level of libido wouldn't care, I guess. I don't know much about that psyche, to be honest. I hope this gave you what you were looking for. Not sure if I answered well, but here it is. Feel free to ask me more questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevittable Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 Hi guys, hope you had a great Christmas break and a good new year. I'm getting back into my research now, so I have some specific questions for the people who have already responded, but please do join in the discussion with your own points of view. "Do you think Melisandre's nudity gives her power in the scene?"Not so much that the nudity gives her power but more confirms the fact that she is powerful and dominant, [...] Mel is fully aware she needs to be beautiful in order to manipulate men to get what she wants and this quote along with other hints suggests Melisandre may well be using magic in order to appear more youthful and attractive. "Does Melisandre's beauty give her power, or is it something else?" Like I discussed in the previous answer, beauty is a big part of it but her intelligence and knowledge are also a big part of it. Her power comes from a combination of these things but she wouldn't have it if she was lacking either of them. She also is very wise especially for someone who appears her age which also points to the fact that she may be far older than she appears. I think these are very interesting answers. It seems that in your opinion Melisandre has power because of a combination of intelligence, knowledge and beauty, and that she may be using her intelligence and knowledge to increase her beauty. Do you think that this puts Melisandre in control of her power, or is she dependant on something else? [...]"A good first step to showing more male nudity, although there wasn't enough, in my humble opinion": what stood out to me is that a female character, who is intelligent and powerful and grounded (basically, 3-D), genuinely enjoys a man's nakedness (and what will follow). I've never seen that before on this show (or much anywhere else, but I don't watch a lot of other stuff). I always see male characters enjoying the female nudity, and it feels alienating because there's no balance. I thought they should have shown it ALL like they show ALL of the female parts. Don't understand why that didn't happen. Women are people too and have the same needs as men.[...]Thanks, yes this was very helpful to me. I think that's a good point about Dany being shown to enjoy Daario's nakedness (however brief the scene was). It stands out to me as well as being one of the few times that we've "seen" a man's nudity through a woman's eyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.