Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[wolfmaid7]

Bearing in mind that the World Book was "written" by a Maester of the Citadel, I would not be surprised to eventually learn the murky basalt ruins are simply artifacts of the first of the First Men migrations, representative of some long abandoned architectural style. Flimsy hunch, perhaps, but we have little else.

Regarding Unicorns... hard to say. I think Osha may make mention of something... Maybe Samwell...in the Castle Black archival research...? Hard to say, but in any case a Unicorn is not a horse. And we've yet to see what a Planetosi Unicorn actually resembles.

Regarding the Dothraki Invasion of Westeros... perhaps this is why the White Walkers are rising. Let's see if they can shatter an Arakh as easily as they shatter a steel sword.

As close as horses you can get, but your right we have no clue what they look like. I'm not sure about the First Men angle. They seem to have taken a nose dive in terms of "development"if that is the case.

I got to think on that a bit more.I have little thought on it though.

[Black Crow]

Regarding Unicorns... hard to say. I think Osha may make mention of something... Maybe Samwell...in the Castle Black archival research...? Hard to say, but in any case a Unicorn is not a horse. And we've yet to see what a Planetosi Unicorn actually resembles.

Judging by that wolf-dream of Shaggydog tucking into a one-horned big goat [the clue that they are on Skagos] I'd say we're looking at a long-haired Shelty [shetland Pony] with a horn - which would fit in terms of location.

Just as the Giants aint wearing seven league boots and living in castles so the Westerosi unicorns aint white Arab stallions

[Black Crow]

Bearing in mind that the World Book was "written" by a Maester of the Citadel, I would not be surprised to eventually learn the murky basalt ruins are simply artifacts of the first of the First Men migrations, representative of some long abandoned architectural style. Flimsy hunch, perhaps, but we have little else.

Decidedly unlikely I'd say given that as I pointed out earlier in regards to Moat Cailin the "progression" is otherwise consistent. There's simply no tradition regarding the lost builders of these huge basalt structures which we now know are seen in Essos as well. Mind you if we're talking in terms of scale the massive blocks do have their parallel in the Wall.

[Lady Barbrey]

Bearing in mind that the World Book was "written" by a Maester of the Citadel, I would not be surprised to eventually learn the murky basalt ruins are simply artifacts of the first of the First Men migrations, representative of some long abandoned architectural style. Flimsy hunch, perhaps, but we have little else.

Regarding Unicorns... hard to say. I think Osha may make mention of something... Maybe Samwell...in the Castle Black archival research...? Hard to say, but in any case a Unicorn is not a horse. And we've yet to see what a Planetosi Unicorn actually resembles.

Regarding the Dothraki Invasion of Westeros... perhaps this is why the White Walkers are rising. Let's see if they can shatter an Arakh as easily as they shatter a steel sword.

Regarding the building materials - we seem to have three different types of black stone around the world associated with pre-historic civilizations or landings or maybe I'm wrong? The oily black stone of Asshai seems to be associated with the sea stone chair, the Five Forts, a few other coastal civilizations, and possibly Hightower? The Valyrian fireforged seamless stone is also possibly Hightower and a few other places in Essos but I don't think anywhere else in Westeros? And then the huge basalt blocks as big as a cottage, suggesting giants helped build whatever was there, such as Moat Cailin and possibly Winterfell and the Wall? I'd have to go back and read but that's what I more or less remember.

The most intriguing to me is the greasy black stone. I read quite a bit of Lovecraft way back when so am aware of the reference, and I think Martin's having fun with the Old Ones and Deep Ones hints. But why would Asshai be made of this similar-sounding material? A place where they practice blood magic to produce hybrid human/animal crossbreeds, and then we get this same stone appearing in places where it's hinted that hybrid humans crawled out of the sea before any other humans were there. I don't know if this will be followed up on in the novels at all, or is just to flesh out Martin's pre-history, but it might Connect to blood magic and the magic in Westeros in the end.

[Black Crow]

I think this goes back to what I suggested before about the business of the Old Gods and the New. We're told that the children believe that those greenseers who go into the wood are the Old Gods and have largely assumed this to be the case, but the phrase appears to have a wide currency in Essos as well as Westeros, so this may not necessarily be so and that there is a deeper magic and Lovecraftian elder gods.

Hence the suggestion that the basalt ruins belong to an older civilisation and that the screwed up seasons may go way back before the Long Night. GRRM has promised us no deus ex machina intervention by gods, but that's not to say that the magic of these older gods isn't being drawn upon by the present protagonists

It might also provide a basis for the bittersweet ending if it turns out that there is no lasting resolution and that just as the black basalt builders have gone, so too will the present civilisations in the next cycle of the conflict.

[wolfmaid7]

So BC what your saying is that this older civilization maybe the original OGs?

[Black Crow]

Something like that. I get the impression that the World Book is setting us up for an older magic and that this conflict waged since time began - or was it before time began? - goes way back beyond the Long Night

[Voice]

Judging by that wolf-dream of Shaggydog tucking into a one-horned big goat [the clue that they are on Skagos] I'd say we're looking at a long-haired Shelty [shetland Pony] with a horn - which would fit in terms of location.

Just as the Giants aint wearing seven league boots and living in castles so the Westerosi unicorns aint white Arab stallions

Just so.

Decidedly unlikely I'd say given that as I pointed out earlier in regards to Moat Cailin the "progression" is otherwise consistent. There's simply no tradition regarding the lost builders of these huge basalt structures which we now know are seen in Essos as well. Mind you if we're talking in terms of scale the massive blocks do have their parallel in the Wall.

It was an admittedly flimsy hunch, just spit-balling. But yes, I was thinking a bit along the same line.

Megalithic architecture tends to be prehistoric. The real-life parallels are endless: the great pyramids of Giza, Stonehenge, etc etc. As the builder's guild of a given place progresses throughout the generations and eons of time, architecture tends to be more refined, and large rough hewn stones tend to give way to brick, mortar, and timber.

I think this is what we're seeing in these Basalt and greasy black examples. Though it may simply be Ser Martin's whimsy to toss us a few paleolithic bones, it's hard to say with the man. There may well be more than meets the eye. Such examples may be the very hint we've been looking for as to the origins of the Wall. Hefting large blocks of Ice is not so different from hefting large blocks of Stone. It may even be that when Men, Giants, and Singers all get along and sing "Kumbayah" together, they produce these large scale wonders. 'Tis all conjecture of course, but what isn't :dunno:

Regarding the building materials - we seem to have three different types of black stone around the world associated with pre-historic civilizations or landings or maybe I'm wrong? The oily black stone of Asshai seems to be associated with the sea stone chair, the Five Forts, a few other coastal civilizations, and possibly Hightower? The Valyrian fireforged seamless stone is also possibly Hightower and a few other places in Essos but I don't think anywhere else in Westeros? And then the huge basalt blocks as big as a cottage, suggesting giants helped build whatever was there, such as Moat Cailin and possibly Winterfell and the Wall? I'd have to go back and read but that's what I more or less remember.

The most intriguing to me is the greasy black stone. I read quite a bit of Lovecraft way back when so am aware of the reference, and I think Martin's having fun with the Old Ones and Deep Ones hints. But why would Asshai be made of this similar-sounding material? A place where they practice blood magic to produce hybrid human/animal crossbreeds, and then we get this same stone appearing in places where it's hinted that hybrid humans crawled out of the sea before any other humans were there. I don't know if this will be followed up on in the novels at all, or is just to flesh out Martin's pre-history, but it might Connect to blood magic and the magic in Westeros in the end.

The Seastone Chair seems a bit different to me. In my mind I think of petrified wood, turned to stone - or fossilized bone. But yes, I did a quick Lovecraft read last year just as a refresher for some debate I was having on the forums here. I like the idea of the Old Gods being even older than the Singers. After all, someone had to teach them how to use the Weirnet ;)

I think this goes back to what I suggested before about the business of the Old Gods and the New. We're told that the children believe that those greenseers who go into the wood are the Old Gods and have largely assumed this to be the case, but the phrase appears to have a wide currency in Essos as well as Westeros, so this may not necessarily be so and that there is a deeper magic and Lovecraftian elder gods.

Hence the suggestion that the basalt ruins belong to an older civilisation and that the screwed up seasons may go way back before the Long Night. GRRM has promised us no deus ex machina intervention by gods, but that's not to say that the magic of these older gods isn't being drawn upon by the present protagonists

It might also provide a basis for the bittersweet ending if it turns out that there is no lasting resolution and that just as the black basalt builders have gone, so too will the present civilisations in the next cycle of the conflict.

I'm with you re: the Elder Gods. But I do not think it is necessary to place the origin of the Basalt ruins beyond the Dawn Age in order to support the argument of their existence. The Essosi utterance is enough, IMO. We have yet to be informed of the source of Quaithe's power, for example. (And, when she introduces herself to us in ACOK with the envoy (Rakaro perhaps?) brought back from Qarth, she distinguishes herself from the others and says she is of the Shadow.)

Perhaps these Elder Gods still have sway in that mysterious place. Quaithe seems to have some pretty unique abilities.

[Lady Barbrey]

With the world book we seem to get more information about the possible existence of these hybrid sea gods than we do about the Others or even the Children. I'm going to pose a hypothetical here. Nobody has to buy it but there are bits that might be somewhat true. I don't particularly like this because I never liked the Cthulu tales except a couple of the scary ones: I'm unhappy at alien origins for anything in this book, and I'd rather speculate on real world relationships than weird tale fictional ones to this world. Also, I don't remember Cthulu well but maybe knowing a general outline is okay.

Over in the Shadow lands near Asshai an 'alien meteor' (you can see why I don't like this) lands, possibly from some stellar collision between moons or the sun, and not only does it seem to set off an h bomb of explosion to irradiate the land, it has some kind of life form/bacteria or actual god like Cthulu, who is, pertinently, described by Lovecraft as part octopus, part dragon and part man. (You see where that description might go in terms of hybrid dragons and sea creatures).

The meteor itself is a hybrid - stone isn't usually greasy - and basically what we have over in Shadow land is a primordial soup of Cthulu genes, where the 'blood' or life force of creatures or humans native to the planet is 'bound to the Shadows'. Out of which comes dragons - wyvern/fire/human blood (Valyrian) hybrids; and merling/krakens - octopi/sea/proto-IronmenHightowerLengYeen whatever bloodlines. These bindings can weaken in time and die out, but those bloodlines, because they were the sacrificed bloodlines that bound these creatures into hybrids, are forever tied to them with the potential - if interbreeding takes place - of being very strong in some people.

Just to depart for a moment from this Cthulu saga, one of the reasons this could work on this planet is that it already had races like the children and giants, and possibly the Others, bound by blood to elements, so the sorceror cult around the Cthulu type thing already had precedence and knowledge that it could be done.

Or, everything started in Asshai by the Shadow.

From Asshai, colonists are sent out, and we can actually trace their progression by weird worship and oily stones along the coastline from east to west. Leng, the Basilisks, Yeen, etc., before landing in Hightower and then the Iron Islands. Humans with certain bloodlines and the creatures they serve or who serve them, bound by blood.The Hightower base could have been made by both mer-things and dragons, but dragons and left Westeros to the sea people by compact perhaps, it was likely too cold at the time, and flew off to find the cosy Fourteen Flames better suited to their nature. Their people intermarried with the natives but some eventually found that with inbreeding themselves they could tame the dragons. The mer-things retreated to the seas, their people eventually intermarried with the First Men in Westeros and other people around the world, but some of them too likely still have some control of the sea creatures. Makes one wonder if the horn Victarion carries is more to wake or control a sea dragon rather than one of Dany's.

So this is quite honestly a bit embarrassing to post, but it is also where my imagination took me with all the hints in the world book, and since we're talking origins I'm putting it out there.

[smashedhalo]

In the dawn age there stories of magical beings.

The mention if these "maze builders" though. The ones that disappeared from all records. Believed to have built the tower at oldtown. They could be the ones the CotF were trying to keep out.

First men were problematic yet not very advanced tech wise. These maze builders were ahead of the game. A bulk of them could have left. Giving the children a opening.

[DarkRose_9]

Or, everything started in Asshai by the Shadow.

From Asshai, colonists are sent out, and we can actually trace their progression by weird worship and oily stones along the coastline from east to west. Leng, the Basilisks, Yeen, etc., before landing in Hightower and then the Iron Islands. Humans with certain bloodlines and the creatures they serve or who serve them, bound by blood.The Hightower base could have been made by both mer-things and dragons, but dragons and left Westeros to the sea people by compact perhaps, it was likely too cold at the time, and flew off to find the cosy Fourteen Flames better suited to their nature. Their people intermarried with the natives but some eventually found that with inbreeding themselves they could tame the dragons. The mer-things retreated to the seas, their people eventually intermarried with the First Men in Westeros and other people around the world, but some of them too likely still have some control of the sea creatures. Makes one wonder if the horn Victarion carries is more to wake or control a sea dragon rather than one of Dany's.

Mayhaps the horn should be blown underwater? Sound carries differently then, and I shouldn't think the magical properties would be hindered by water.

[Lady Barbrey]

Mayhaps the horn should be blown underwater? Sound carries differently then, and I shouldn't think the magical properties would be hindered by water.

Puts new meaning into the 'Call of 'Cthulu'! And maybe if its a seahorn blown underwater, the blower wouldn't die!

[Lady Barbrey]

In the dawn age there stories of magical beings.

The mention if these "maze builders" though. The ones that disappeared from all records. Believed to have built the tower at oldtown. They could be the ones the CotF were trying to keep out.

First men were problematic yet not very advanced tech wise. These maze builders were ahead of the game. A bulk of them could have left. Giving the children a opening.

They're an interesting people but with no mentions I can remember in the novels themselves, we have few clues to go on. When I think of mazes, I think of sending sacrifices into the middle of one to be eaten by monsters like the Minotaur, half man-half-bull. More hybrid humans, more blood sacrifice. The series is riddled with them!

[Black Crow]

I think that all this Lovecraftian stuff is the mysterious background stuff which GRRM loves, we're not going to see dread Cthulu [by whatever name] any more than we're going to see R'hllor. Yes it may be a conflict waged since time began or even before but its currently being waged by the present generations not those that came before and the point is to provide background evidence of the timeless nature of that struggle

[Lady Barbrey]

I think that all this Lovecraftian stuff is the mysterious background stuff which GRRM loves, we're not going to see dread Cthulu [by whatever name] any more than we're going to see R'hllor. Yes it may be a conflict waged since time began or even before but its currently being waged by the present generations not those that came before and the point is to provide background evidence of the timeless nature of that struggle

Nobody is saying Cthulu himself is going to rear up out of the waters -that was supposed to be a pun! As to your other point,mostof us are still grappling with what the essential struggle is, let alone its timelessness.

BTW, the description of Moat Cailin has its roots in another fantasy text. I thought I recognized it but hadn't paid much attention till I read 135. It was the names and descriptions of the towers, the name Cailin itself,and even the stone used that gave it away. Martin gives us a literary lineage for this as well as historical. Any guesses, anyone? :)

[QueenOfVibe]

@ Lady Barbrey - ^ Please, do tell.

[Armstark]

I am fairly certain that at least the structure beneath the Hightower was build by dragons.

Most maesters accept the common wisdom that declares it to be of Valyrian construction, for its massive walls and labyrinthine interiors are all of solid rock, with no hint of joins or mortar, no chisel marks of any kind, a type of construction that is seen elsewhere, most notably in the dragonroads of the Freehold of Valyria, and the Black Walls that protect the heart of Old Volantis. The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite.

The fused black stone of which it is made suggests Valyria, but the plain, unadorned style of architecture does not, for the dragonlords loved little more than twisting stone into strange, fanciful, and ornate shapes. Within, the narrow, twisting, windowless passages strike many as being tunnels rather than halls; it is very easy to get lost amongst their turnings. Mayhaps this is no more than a defensive measure designed to confound attackers, but it too is singularly un-Valyrian.

So the structure is build with the same methods as the Valyrians used (dragonflame) but is likely not build by them because it doesn't fit their style. Tunnels rather than halls suggest that it was some kind of dragonlair.

Also:

The stony island where the Hightower stands is known as Battle Isle even in our oldest records, but why? What battle was fought there? When? Between which lords, which kings, which races? Even the singers are largely silent on these matters.

In fact the singers are not totally silent about the matter, just a few sentences earlier the Maester told us

Some ignorant septons claim that the Seven themselves laid out its boundaries, other men that dragons once roosted on the Battle Isle until the first Hightower put an end to them

[Mace Cooterian]

A Thanksgiving Wish to all Fellow Heretics.

Taking this time to give thanks for:

• Black Crow hitting the "post" button three years ago.
  
• HBO selecting Peter Dinklage to portray our beloved Tyrion Lannister. On a personal note, it was Dinklage's portrayal of Tyrion that brought me into the world of I&F.
  
• The giffed authors who bring new ideas and theories to this forum, which helps to sustain our interest levels between releases (.....and they will certainly be needed between 2015 and 2020-ish waiting on ADoS). :bowdown:
  

I could go on, but the family beckons........ :cheers:

[Black Crow]

And I'll warmly reciprocate those Thanksgiving greetings, especially to all who have contributed over the years.

Tomorrow as it happens is Heresy's third name day and I'll try to put together a suitable post, but in the meantime enjoy the roast turkey.

[Black Crow]

I am fairly certain that at least the structure beneath the Hightower was build by dragons.

Quote

So the structure is build with the same methods as the Valyrians used (dragonflame) but is likely not build by them because it doesn't fit their style. Tunnels rather than halls suggest that it was some kind of dragonlair.

Not necessarily. It sounds very much like that black basalt maze which was discussed earlier - something to do with the Old Gods. The two aren't incompatible of course but I have my doubts.

I'm also inclined to wonder a little whether the Valyrians really could perform these wonders with dragon-flame or whether they merely pretended they had built those black structures.