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theory: Melisandre POV and evil UnJon


Xyseth

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This thought has been viciously gnawing at my brain lately and I'd like feedback. I'm not sure how well discussed this is, so give me a break if it's not that novel. Prepare tinfoil, but don't quite anchor it atop your lovely head.

My theory is that Melisandre has been added as a point-of-view (POV) for one purpose and one purpose only (well, mostly one purpose): with the death and resurrection of Jon Snow, he will no longer be a POV.

I know that this is touches on a lot of hot issues which deal with what people want for Jon's character. If what people wanted mattered, Ned Stark would still be alive, so let's keep that in mind. People don't want Jon to die and would prefer him not to become UnJon, or to warg into Ghost, or many of the other options [1]. In the following, I make some assumptions, but stick with me for a moment as I explain those assumptions.

I believe that Melisandre's recent addition as a POV (chapter count = 1) in aDwD is so that in tWoW she can take over narration duties at the Wall (or wherever she flees with Jon's body) on a more permanent basis until Sam/someone comes back so she can die. Most importantly, she exists to observe strange changes in UnJon, though she might still be hot for him as Azor Ahai candidate numero uno. Her addition as a POV is unnecessary if Jon is still alive, and I don't think GRRM would add another POV so Melissandre can simply be of temporary use in describing happenings with an injured Jon (stay with me!). Martin could make his injuries less substantial or a whole host of other options in order to avoid adding yet another POV. Yet he POV'd her, a permanent choice. Thus, Melissandre's addition as a POV character is indicative of things to come, namely Jon's loss of POV. Consider the Mereenese Knot for a moment. One of the many issues Martin wrestled with was that he needed to keep a POV (Barristan) in Mereen for when Dany flew off with Drogon. Barristan is likely to die soon in the coming POV purge. Up north, he needs a POV with the addition of UnJon, since Jon sent Sam to Oldtown.

Moreover, we have never had an UnCharacter as a POV and UnJon will be no exception. We know already that UnCharacters become uglier and uglier, both in body and soul, especially if they are out for a while, like Catelyn. In fact, I think that Berric and Catelyn primarily exist to foreshadow Jon's fate - to have a dramatic change of character resulting from delayed revival. Berric came first to signal that revival can bear little consequence, then Catelyn came to suggest darker, portentous consequences.

Given all the groups likely brandishing weapons/fists at the Wall - Nights Watchmen, Wildlings, Queen's guards, Wun Wun - it seems reasonable that Melisandre might have some trouble quickly getting Jon's body and bringing it to a safe location where she can revive him. Martin has made a point in interviews to say that there is a real cost to being revived. He's been hinting at this for a long time, priming us so he can harvest our eye droppings. He doesn't continue to highlight this because Catelyn/Beric, but because someone more important than Catelyn has yet to become undead. One can never come back unchanged. Jon will be no different.

Perhaps most importantly, the death and revival of Jon Snow is the best emotionally acceptable way (for readers) to accept Jon's corruption (stay with me!). Many readers will be furious, yes, but since death/revival has already been established as corrupting Martin has built his avenue. A slow steady corruption of a beloved character makes readers want to stop reading, so Martin invented a speedy yet poetic way: rebirth. Moreover, by losing Jon as a POV, Martin allows readers to accept Jon's demonization since they don't have to witness a POV becoming evil. Once evil, UnJon can blow the Horn of Winter [2], which Ghost found up near the Fist of First Men (it needs to come back to him, but that's not impossible to accomplish[3]). UnJon brings down the Wall. Our savior, Jon Snow - our Jesus Christ who has died and come back to life - becomes an agent of evil. Very Martin.

"Wait, wait, wait - evil? Jon becomes evil? Hold on now. He might become UnJon, but an evil UnJon is too far." Others have argued that Jon will become corrupted too, but let me add my rendition: Jon is in the North. He dies. So far when people die in the North they come back to life as wights, who have some shred of their former selves but are more evil... and cold. Make tinfoily note of the word choice: "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold..." All this begs the question: With Melisandre reviving Jon, what happens? My guess is that Jon falls somewhere in between wight/Other and Beric/Catelyn. He becomes part wight, part UnCatelyn [4].

Thus, much like Beric and Catelyn, UnJon becomes hellbent on something. If he's more wight, he's hellbent on destroying the Wall, which I think is the most likely case. The other Night's Watch who have become wights come to enjoy the simple pleasures of UnLife, like attempting to assassinate the leadership of the Watch (Lord Commander Mormont). UnJon will enjoy similar pleasures. Alternatively, if he's more like Catelyn, he's hellbent on killing the Boltons or saving "Arya," regardless of the collateral damage. This still could involve revenge-blowing the Horn of Winter, which must be blown by someone important to have meaning [5]. (Patchface is not important, damn your theories!)

An additional point is that so far the wights/Others are the "evil" of the story [6], but they lack a head. There's no Sarumon/Sauron and instead they are this eerie force beyond the Wall. Evil, for narrative reasons, will likely receive an Evil Overlord/Servant [7], and the guy who we're led to assume is co-hero to Dany would be a very Martin-esque choice. The Wall must come down somehow and we have our Chekhov's horn. There are a number of options for this, but I think having UnJon do it would bring Martin great satisfaction, allowing him to once again bathe in his fan's tears, some shed in sadness but others shed for his brilliance. I would call this brilliant, for the record.

I must address Catelyn and Jamie. "Wait a minute," you say, "Catelyn has been revived to serve sweet justice to Jamie or to give him a chance at redemption." Maybe to both. In any case, that's too narrow of a focus. Let me begin my argument with a broader question: Why have revival at all? Martin would not have gone through all the trouble of establishing this as a major feature of the magic of his world if it would not effect a main character. No, not a minor major character, like Catelyn, but a major major character. I think Jon is the most likely candidate for that, given current information.

A second question: Why include UnCatelyn in particular? There are other choices Martin could have made, but this choice prolongs the middle (politicking-heavy) story. I, for one, don't think that Martin has extended all this non-Wall/non-Dany business simply to annoy that fraction of his readers who complain, "Martin, why don't you get on with the story! Jon and Dany are the only important characters!" Martin thinks, "they just don't understand why this middle business is important... Yet. Muahaha!"

What's that importance? UnCatelyn best foreshadows UnJon and also lets Jamie continue his redemption arc. By escaping from UnCatelyn or being forgiven by her, Jamie can continue on his path and go kill evil UnJon (who Catelyn, you know, hated) and save humanity, etc, etc. Thus, Jamie, the Kingslayer, the very man who started this whole big hubbub by pushing Bran out of a window, now has a chance to save humanity as our very Martin-esque hero - flawed, incestuous but very pragmatic. For the record, I like the politicking a lot (<3 Littlefinger), but I am hella sure that Martin understands that many fantasy readers would find the unnecessary expansion of the middle stuff annoying, so he has tried to be economical. The stuff that's there is important, even if not yet totally clear.

Thus, all of this hinges upon Melisandre's addition as a POV. She was what got me thinking about why Martin might have truly needed to add her among all the choices he could have made. If you read all that, thanks! I know it was a lot. FYI, my biases are pretty heavy: I'm in Camp Ragnarök, but its other predictions are not necessary for the above to be come to pass.

Please let me know what you think! What holes are there? Yes, I obviously assume that Jon becomes UnJon, but what about my rationale has holes? Are there alternatives that Martin is more likely to choose? What additional supporting information is there?


[1] Please note that Jon could still warg into Ghost under this theory. However, I don't think that's likely because then UnJon would then be 100% wight, unless red priest revival has some spooky interaction and the wight is intelligent (and brown-eyed) enough to know that it's not a good idea to mindlessly attack people, but to cleverly wait until a likely horn-based opportunity arises. This might be tragic because Ghost-Jon could watch UnJon ruin everything. Ghost-Jon would need to be chained up so that he doesn't attack his former body. The stand-alone chapter with Varamyr Sixskins might be foreshadowing or misdirection. It's hard to tell. However, I think Ghost-Jon gets too complicated, so, by Occam's razor, I do not predict warging into Ghost. It is also curious that Ghost, the direwolf, found the Horn (Bloodraven, you clever fox). Reread: I'm warming up to Ghost-Jon now, but what are your thoughts? The first order from UnJon could be to chain up Ghost before Jon even realizes he's watching his corpse rather than looking at a surreal reflection. Ghost-Jon could try to warg back into undead Jon and other really tantalizing options. Plus, Ghost-Jon is more "bittersweet" which GRRM tells us to expect.

[2] It need not necessarily be the Horn of Winter. It could be the dragon-binding horn. A horn shall be tooted and tooted hard. It is known.

[3] IIRC, Sam gave the Horn to the captain to pay for his passage south. In any case, it could find its way to Dany or something, but eventually I think it returns to evil UnJon, and he'll give it a ferocious toot. He could be in communion with the Others, since wights seem to communicate somehow and are not quite a mindless hive.

[4] I suspect that the same juju that's powering the Others/wights is being exploited by the red priests, but we don't know this yet. Didn't Beric die in order to have Catelyn live? That is blood magic, my friends, blood magic. It may be dressed in a noble action, to save Catelyn, but that's blood magic.

[5] Some people think that the Horn of Winter will somehow get confused for the Dragon-Binding Horn. Maybe, but I'm having problems seeing how it would be easy for readers to buy that, oopsy, one got misplaced for the other, unless UnJon is involved. They don't even look alike... I suspect.

[6] I think that the idea -- that the Others are much different than we've been led to believe and not exactly evil -- can still mesh with this theory. UnJon can simply be their (not Tolkien-esque evil) servant. Nevertheless, I would argue that the Others are not exactly friendly to humans who don't make blood sacrifice like Crastor, even if they become more ambiguous in their moral dimension.

[7] In the show, we have a little peak at a potential Evil Overlord who seems to Otherify a baby, but after 5 novels I think an Overlord's addition, unaccompanied by a major character, is too emotionally distant for Martin's taste. We already have our Evil Overlord/Servant in a character we know and love. Dany/Bran are other candidates, but I think Jon makes more sense with current information. Bran could go either way, but my gut says he's "evil" as well. However, I suspect that he tragically/sympathetically won't be aware of what he's doing (because child) and/or will believe it totally morally correct and the reader must also reluctantly see the moral ambiguity. This makes Bran's slip into darkness - "[his] cloak, [his] shield, [his] mother's milk" - not too difficult for us readers as we provide the requisite tears for Mr. Martin's joyous baths. Or Bran could realize Bloodraven is "evil" before it's too late. Either way, he's slipping, but please don't derail this thread with Brantheories and Branspiracies, since he's tangential to my overall point, which at this point might need refreshing:

tldr:

Several reasons, but most notably Melisandre's addition as a POV, suggest that we're getting a POV-less UnJon, and UnJon is evil. Please let me know what you think and perhaps deposit brilliance/sadness tears into this handy receptacle |_| and mail to GRRM's address. Bath time is coming.



Late edit: I changed White Walker/Other/wight to be consistent.


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If the Others aren't quite as cold as they seem, Jon being unJon might not be as bad as it seems.


If the Others want the area north of the wall swept clean of humans, Jon has been acting as the Others' ally in this already (letting Wildlings in).


So if the Others open communication through Jon it could be to say "We like this LC, we're not letting you quit him just because you killed him. This is an LC we can work with."


And Mel could take over the intricate concerns of "what does this mean for Westeros' security? Should we be fighting or listening to Jon? What can we do now to get ready for resuming the realm's defense when this Cold Summit goes horribly wrong?" The best way to have such chapters be meaningful is if Jon's mind was a mystery to us so that Melidandre's doubts were also our doubts and her chapters explored the problem without Jon's POV being there to instantly dispel any worries and reveal Mel as a complete spaz. We shouldn't know if she's a spaz or if she's totally right about things. (Maybe her visions turn out to be right all along and we're the ones who've been seeing with faulty eyes!!!)


And we might also get some Ghost POV in the meantime.


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Thanks, but why don't you? That'd be helpful to me.

Because:

1. Jon's not dead yet, and until Martin shows me an actual corpse, I don't think he will die from his injuries.

2. Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, so his Targaryen side is going to have to factor into this somehow or Martin wouldn't have included it.

3. Jon could be AAR/TPTWP.

Mel could be his stand-in POV while Jon is unconscious, but I don't think she's going to replace him as a POV. She's too unreliable and he's too important to do that.

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Because:

1. Jon's not dead yet, and until Martin shows me an actual corpse, I don't think he will die from his injuries.

2. Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, so his Targaryen side is going to have to factor into this somehow or Martin wouldn't have included it.

3. Jon could be AAR/TPTWP.

Mel could be his stand-in POV while Jon is unconscious, but I don't think she's going to replace him as a POV. She's too unreliable and he's too important to do that.

Thanks.

(1) I can't really argue with this since Martin loves implying that someone dies, but for other reasons I feel justified saying that he is more likely to be be dead. However, you have to concede that if he truly kills off another Stark, he may very well do so in a momentarily ambiguous way to heighten the tension. Since we need Jon/Mel's next chapter, this could fit that bill - though, yes, we don't know if he's dead for sure.

(2) R+J=L still can work, especially if evil UnJon gets his hand on the Dragon-Binding Horn. Then the Others have a dragon. Although they're ice, I'm sure they wouldn't be morally opposed to a fire weapon, especially if it points its hot ejecta toward someone else. Thus, Martin's inclusion of R+J=L does not become obsolete with UnJon.

(3) Yes, he could. Yet he is not the only candidate. So could Dany. So could Jamie.

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No-one ever said a POV had to be reliable. I mean look at Cersci!



From a plot point of view, I don't see the sense in a permanently dead or Undead Jon. There is too much to untangle with his parents (which GRRM said he would find out about at some point IIRC), his weird Bran-induced dreams ect. so I don't see him as gone forever.


The inclusion of Mel as a POV does bother me though. Could be that an insight to her motivations will be necessary later on...


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GRRM said he regretted not giving Robb a POV, so I doubt he will remove Jons. We know he originally kept all the claimants to the Iron throne from having a POV, but given how he felt about Robb afterwards I doubt he will do it again.



As far as Melissandre being the POV while he's unconscious, I think that's almost a given.



I stopped reading the theory at 1 point because it was too long and stopped making sense.


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A couple of things.



1. Him feeling cold at the end could signify death or feeling cold. I did a count before (cannot remember exact numbers), but I think it was something to the effect of 7 or 8 POV characters have died while in POV and at least 4 expressed feeling cold.


2. Did Jon get stabbed north of the Wall? I think only those that have died north of the Wall have ever turned to Wights. Maybe I am mistaken on the location of his stabbing.


3. If we are going to invoke Occam's Razor at all, the most likely answer is that he survives the stabbing or doesn't and follows all previous shown premises thereafter.


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^ Uhh, I think your math is a little off.. the only character to have died in POV was Catlyn, who was then brought back to life...

ETA: Before anyone says Quentyn, his death took hours or days but he did not die in POV.

Well four of the five prologue POVs died in POV. Kevan Lannister and Merrett Frey in their epilogues.

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mmmmmmm,



even a warm-zombie Jon who thinks and acts just like his old self probably would no longer dream.


his connection with Ghost would atrophy, man! it'd be sad.



It'd be nifty if Ghost became the great loophole that allows Ice & Fire to finally meet inside a furry host creature and begin to hash out a new agreement. (Like, what if Fire brings Mel to the table opposite Ice's unJon and they reach an impasse because they're still at odds the way they've always been? Until Ghost's desperation causes him to yank Jon's spirit into a neutral location, the warg connection, and empathy sparks there between the parties, then Mel adds her fire to the lifeless UnJon to raise him back to life as a warm zombie while he also remains in contact with his cold zombie masters. Synthesis baby, yeah.


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From a plot point of view, I don't see the sense in a permanently dead or Undead Jon. There is too much to untangle with his parents (which GRRM said he would find out about at some point IIRC), his weird Bran-induced dreams ect. so I don't see him as gone forever.

The inclusion of Mel as a POV does bother me though. Could be that an insight to her motivations will be necessary later on...

That's a very fair point - about the need to untangle Jon's parentage. That wouldn't be a very satisfying conclusion - unless Ghost-Jon has some means to reclaim his body. Or there's another way for him to discover his parentage, say as a scruffy and lovably Ghost-Jon. Dawww.

A couple of things.

1. Him feeling cold at the end could signify death or feeling cold. I did a count before (cannot remember exact numbers), but I think it was something to the effect of 7 or 8 POV characters have died while in POV and at least 4 expressed feeling cold.

2. Did Jon get stabbed north of the Wall? I think only those that have died north of the Wall have ever turned to Wights. Maybe I am mistaken on the location of his stabbing.

3. If we are going to invoke Occam's Razor at all, the most likely answer is that he survives the stabbing or doesn't and follows all previous shown premises thereafter.

1. True, true - but that's why I pointed out the comment was especially tinfoily.

2. He was south of the Wall. Yet you bring up a fair point: the north/south Wall + Wightification. I don't think we really know how that works. So far you need to have been north of the Wall. Yet, we also know that Castle Black is now careful to burn their dead, like with, I suppose, "Mance", though he's a special case, and I can't really use him as evidence for their weariness. It's reasonable to assume, however, that they're quite wary about dead people north of Wall and near it on the south side. Is it that you have to have gone north of the Wall recently to become a wight? Or is it absolutely certain that you must have died north of the Wall? It may be the latter, but I'm willing to gander that since we don't have a preponderance of deaths at Castle Black, south of the wall, we don't have a definite answer yet. Please bring up an example of someone who died south of the wall, but near to it, if one exists, though!

3. Ha! Yeah. I should have said: Given deep rabbit hole, let's then make some assumptions about simplicity about Wonderland. A fair point, but like I said Ghost-Jon sounds more okay with me.

Edit: "quotes" on Mance.

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Thanks.

(1) I can't really argue with this since Martin loves implying that someone dies, but for other reasons I feel justified saying that he is more likely to be be dead. However, you have to concede that if he truly kills off another Stark, he may very well do so in a momentarily ambiguous way to heighten the tension. Since we need Jon/Mel's next chapter, this could fit that bill - though, yes, we don't know if he's dead for sure.

I don't concede that he would simply kill off Jon for the shock factor, especially since Jon's story arc is very clearly not finished.

And if he were going to kill off Jon, you'd think he'd just go ahead and make it definite and not ambiguous.

(2) R+J=L still can work, especially if evil UnJon gets his hand on the Dragon-Binding Horn. Then the Others have a dragon. Although they're ice, I'm sure they wouldn't be morally opposed to a fire weapon, especially if it points its hot ejecta toward someone else. Thus, Martin's inclusion of R+J=L does not become obsolete with UnJon.

I absolutely think it does become obsolete. UnJon is no longer "Jon"- he's effectively a zombie. He would no longer be a POV character and any revelations about his background would be completely lost on his character as he would no longer be the same person he was before.

(3) Yes, he could. Yet he is not the only candidate. So could Dany. So could Jamie.

Dany, yes. Not Jaime or anyone else- not if AAR is TPTWP (as I believe), because TPTWP must come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. So that leaves Jon, Dany and Aegon (if he's real).

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That's a very fair point - about the need to untangle Jon's parentage. That wouldn't be a very satisfying conclusion - unless Ghost-Jon has some means to reclaim his body. Or there's another way for him to discover his parentage, say as a scruffy and lovably Ghost-Jon. Dawww.

1. True, true - but that's why I pointed out the comment was especially tinfoily.

2. He was south of the Wall. Yet you bring up a fair point: the north/south Wall + Wightification. I don't think we really know how that works. So far you need to have been north of the Wall. Yet, we also know that Castle Black is now careful to burn their dead, like with, I suppose, Mance, though he's a special case, and I can't really use him as evidence for their weariness. It's reasonable to assume, however, that they're quite wary about dead people north of Wall and near it on the south side. Is it that you have to have gone north of the Wall recently to become a wight? Or is it absolutely certain that you must have died north of the Wall? It may be the latter, but I'm willing to gander that since we don't have a preponderance of deaths at Castle Black, south of the wall, we don't have a definite answer yet. Please bring up an example of someone who died south of the wall, but near to it, if one exists, though!

3. Ha! Yeah. I should have said: Given deep rabbit hole, let's then make some assumptions about simplicity about Wonderland. A fair point, but like I said Ghost-Jon sounds more okay with me.

2. I agree wholeheartedly about number 2. We certainly do not have enough evidence to say one way or the other. The only possible evidence would lie in those that died before the Night's Watch knew to burn the bodies. That isn't strong however because circumstances have changed and maybe the Others now have Wight turning abilities further South than at the beginning of the series.

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I don't concede that he would simply kill off Jon for the shock factor, especially since Jon's story arc is very clearly not finished.

And if he were going to kill off Jon, you'd think he'd just go ahead and make it definite and not ambiguous.

I absolutely think it does become obsolete. UnJon is no longer "Jon"- he's effectively a zombie. He would no longer be a POV character and any revelations about his background would be completely lost on his character as he would no longer be the same person he was before.

Dany, yes. Not Jaime or anyone else- not if AAR is TPTWP (as I believe), because TPTWP must come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. So that leaves Jon, Dany and Aegon (if he's real).

He's not going to definitively kill Jon at the very end of a book because then people who are diehard Jon fanboys won't buy the next one. (Let's be clear this forum houses advanced readers and many more casual readers already think Jon is definitely dead.) However, if more definitely dead, it's more likely you'd then say: Jon is going to be UnJon much like Beric - with little consequence. And we'd be having this argument on slightly different terms. He left more ambiguity, which is exactly his style. Like I have argued, if he is going to kill Jon, he has to do it in a more emotionally acceptable way - which, by my argument, UnJon (+option Ghost-Jon) is the only acceptable way, especially if Martin is intent on making him evil. We don't know if he has that intent yet, but with the foreshadowing thus far, if Jon dies, I'm willing to bet he becomes evil.

UnJon would still have dragon's blood, so R+J=L is relavent in terms of him being able to potentially control a dragon. As another reader has pointed out, the revelation about R+J=L would be weakened with UnJon, unless Martin provides himself a satisfying way to direct your emotions, such as to Ghost-Jon. I have conceded that this revelation's dampened effect on the reader might be the largest evidence against my theory. I'm not strongly emotionally attached to the theory, so I just want to explore and evaluate it. Thanks for your help in that regard!

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Just wondering: why does TPTWP have to come from that line?

Ser Barristan went on. “I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen.”

“Why did they wed if they did not love each other?”

“Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line.”

“A woods witch?” Dany was astonished. “She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest.”

“What became of her?”

“Summerhall.” The word was fraught with doom.

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