[SPOILERS] We Need To Talk About Tyrion: How HBO Failed George R. R. Martin’s Iconic Character

[Caesar Targaryen]

Recently, an article has been making the rounds about how in the author's opinion, the show botched part of Tyrion's ASOS arc called 'We Need To Talk About Tyrion: How HBO Failed George R.R. Martin's Iconic Character' (I would post a link in this post but I don't know how you do it on these boards, so if anyone knows what I'm talking about, please be so kind as to do so). I would like to know you guys' thoughts on the matter.

Link: https://lareviewofbooks.org/essay/need-talk-tyrion-hbo-failed-george-r-r-martins-iconic-character

My opinion: When I watch an adaptation of anything, be it a comic or a book or whatever, I rarely, if ever, stop and say "Hey, that's not like the comic/book/whatever, this sucks!" So the changes to the show haven't bothered me as much as others. Also, the article states that the change to his arc takes away from him being a tragic character when, in my opinion, he still is, because he is depicted in the show as someone who sticks up for the underdog but almost always gets the short end of the stick, i.e. getting imprisoned in the Vale, getting a giant battle scar, being married to a woman who despises him, etc.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter, what are yours?

[ADanceWithCats]

'Betrayal' is such a strong word. I guess it generates more clickbait than "Why I disagree with HBO's interpretation of Tyrion."

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, though. It's not like it's global climate change, where it actually matters that some idiots think it's not happening.

[Rrachel]

I do agree with what's written about Shae on that article... but I honestly belive the writter of the article might be over-reacting. In most parts, Tyrion has been amazingly portraited on the TV show and doesn't has anything to envy from the book's Tyrion. There're changes of course, but this happens with all the characters with no exceptions.

[jaimereborn]

they absolutely botched the end of s4, no doubt. and shae's character too. but dinklage is for the most part fantastic.

[Mr Fixit]

A reasonable article; I can sympathise without necessarily agreeing.

Until I read the following passage, that is:

Peter Dinklage is a handsome man, and his subsequent scarring in battle could be considered sexy. (It’s absurd that Sansa is so repulsed by the idea of sex with him, in this context — sure, he’s not the man of her dreams, but after the traumas she’s experienced, you would think her fantasies could realign to accommodate a difference in height.)

Twas beautiful. Such a fine application of logic, isn't it? From this, I gather that:

• a girl shouldn't be (as) repulsed by the idea of sex with a man who happens to be handsome
  
• a girl shouldn't be (as) repulsed by the idea of sex with a man whose family killed her entire family if said man happens to be handsome
  
• said handsomeness should go a long way towards mitigating the "vertically challenged factor"
  

Yeah, yet another example of your typical "poor Tyrion, tsk that inconsiderate Sansa" uberfan. Are they breeding those in a cloning facility somewhere?

[boojam]

But that's just my thoughts on the matter, what are yours?

That ship sailed so long ago it's not only over the horizon but it made port and is never coming back.

[RezBarbie24]

A reasonable article; I can sympathise without necessarily agreeing.

Until I read the following passage, that is:

Twas beautiful. Such a fine application of logic, isn't it? From this, I gather that:

• a girl shouldn't be (as) repulsed by the idea of sex with a man who happens to be handsome
• a girl shouldn't be (as) repulsed by the idea of sex with a man whose family killed her entire family if said man happens to be handsome
• said handsomeness should go a long way towards mitigating the "vertically challenged factor"

Yeah, yet another example of your typical "poor Tyrion, tsk that inconsiderate Sansa" uberfan. Are they breeding those in a cloning facility somewhere?

I know right? What 13 year old girl (just recently "flowered") wouldn't want to be married to a battle scarred man who they hardly know? I mean since he's nicer than Joffrey she should just be happy with what she gets!!!

But NOOOO... she's just spoiled teenager who is just throwing a fit "cuz he's too short"... yep that's it... and it has absolutely nothing to do with not only being held prisoner by, but also being MARRIED into the family that ruined your life/(fairytale).....

Let me finish with this: I'm really not Sansa fan but I'm also not a "hater"... but the passage that you highlighted irked me so much considering it was coming from someone who thinks tyrions character wasn't shown in the right light (which I agree with)..... BUT then to basically say that Sansa is just an inconsiderate teenaged brat (because all teen girl's character's are EXACTLY the same)who should just be happy with what she got is why I'm sticking up for "her".... WTF???

BLAH!!!!! Feels good to get that off my chest... F'n B.S. man! Lol

[Ramsay Gimp]

Yeah, the showrunners actually managed to botch Tyrion final scenes with Jaime, Shae, and Tywin. Kind of impressive, really, that they could so undermine his 3 most important relationships in the span of 5 minutes

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yeah, the showrunners actually managed to botch Tyrion final scenes with Jaime, Shae, and Tywin. Kind of impressive, really, that they could so undermine his 3 most important relationships in the span of 5 minutes everything.

Fixed.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Fixed.

A little harsh...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

A little harsh...

the truth is always harsh.

[Ramsay Gimp]

the truth is always harsh.

You don't like any aspect of the show? Not even any of the performances?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You don't like any aspect of the show? Not even any of the performances?

I like the performances, but D&D didn't touch that.

[Konradsmith]

In the episodes they directed they did...

And when they write to the actors' strengths.

[Pod The Impaler]

Trying to put myself in the head of a TV show producer, I have only this to speculate about:

We can see the genesis of some decisions as coming from what is possible to pull off on TV, and what would look lame - for example: the Bloody Mummers sellswords were cut from the show. I don't agree with every way that was handled, but I at least can see the reason why they did it - the flamboyance of certain characters simply cannot be transfered to the screen, without coming off as campy.

Another aspect of what the show chooses to simplify or exclude is based on factors like budget: less scenes of battles, less locations, less characters (reduced casting). Clearly they are putting out some expensive episodes with what they do include, but some of the reductions clearly come from a cost control perspective.

However...

Sometimes the show pulls back from what is in the books, for "self-censorship" or "that won't work for the target audience" reasons. They are toning certain things down, being a bit risk averse - which may surprise people to hear, considering how much the show pushes the edge already. The actors have done an excellent job of playing their roles: Maisie, Peter, Sophie, Lena, etc. - but sometimes I have the feeling that the producers and show writers are tampering with things in the plot and dialogue that they don't think the audience will be able to handle.

With Tyrion's storyline, without getting too spoiler-y, the glaring omission was: TYSHA. All the other stuff, like Dinklage not being intrisically ugly, is small potatoes.

When you think about what's gone wrong with the Tyrion story / character, try doing so without reference to Tysha. In the books, this is the apex of the tension between him and his father, the reason for many of Tyrion's actions re: Shae and other whores, and the great shame of Jaime's life (when he regrets vistually nothing else) - not to mention the darkest aspect of Tyrion's character.

I am picturing a meeting of HBO executives, where the plotline of the extremely-important-to-HBO Tyrion character was explained, and why Tyrion kills Shae and finally kills his father. They hear about Tysha - the plot arc leading to Jaime's reveal and Tyrion's reaction, and what it all means - and shit hits the fan. "Tyrion is a hero, the audience wouldn't stand for it !" they declare, and the change is made.

It is not that Tysha never existed on HBO - The storyline was even set up in season 1, thanks to the little tale he tells to Bronn and Shae. Yet, when the moment of truth came, the show balked at actually using it.
They probably took a look the audience and thought they would never handle a protagonist that dark; certain acts are so touchy, they probably feared the media firestorm over the Tysha situation would permanently ruin the character and thus the whole show. This isn't Craster, or Ramsay, or even Jaime, who started the show as a confirmed villain; people are supposed to like Tyrion.

If the Tysha situation is salvagable, at all (if we are to have faith in the show's writers at this point), I can only think that they could be saving it up to reveal later - somehow, once Tyrion and Jaime are separated. The gut-wrenching impact of the reveal would be lost, compared to when it was supposed to happen, but at least the lynchpin of Tyrion's character and motivations for future actions would be preserved.

[Ramsay Gimp]

However...

Sometimes the show pulls back from what is in the books, for "self-censorship" or "that won't work for the target audience" reasons. They are toning certain things down, being a bit risk averse - which may surprise people to hear, considering how much the show pushes the edge already. The actors have done an excellent job of playing their roles: Maisie, Peter, Sophie, Lena, etc. - but sometimes I have the feeling that the producers and show writers are tampering with things in the plot and dialogue that they don't think the audience will be able to handle.

With Tyrion's storyline, without getting too spoiler-y, the glaring omission was: TYSHA. All the other stuff, like Dinklage not being intrisically ugly, is small potatoes.

When you think about what's gone wrong with the Tyrion story / character, try doing so without reference to Tysha. In the books, this is the apex of the tension between him and his father, the reason for many of Tyrion's actions re: Shae and other whores, and the great shame of Jaime's life (when he regrets vistually nothing else) - not to mention the darkest aspect of Tyrion's character.

I am picturing a meeting of HBO executives, where the plotline of the extremely-important-to-HBO Tyrion character was explained, and why Tyrion kills Shae and finally kills his father. They hear about Tysha - the plot arc leading to Jaime's reveal and Tyrion's reaction, and what it all means - and shit hits the fan. "Tyrion is a hero, the audience wouldn't stand for it !" they declare, and the change is made.

It is not just that Tysha never existed on HBO - The storyline was even set up in season 1, thanks to the little tale he tells to Bronn and Shae. Yet, when the moment of truth came, the show balked at actually using it.

They probably took a look the audience and thought they would never handle a protagonist that dark; certain acts are so touchy, they probably feared the media firestorm over the Tysha situation would permanently ruin the character and thus the whole show. This isn't Craster, or Ramsay, or even Jaime, who started the show as a confirmed villain; people are supposed to like Tyrion.

If the Tysha situation is salvagable, at all (if we are to have faith in the show's writers at this point), I can only think that they could be saving it up to reveal later - somehow, once Tyrion and Jaime are separated. The gut-wrenching impact of the reveal would be lost, compared to when it was supposed to happen, but at least the lynchpin of Tyrion's character and motivations for future actions would be preserved.

Well said. There are some things that must be cut for time or clarity's sake - the books are gargantuan after all. But this pussy-footing with dark and difficult material stops the show from reaching its potential. This is much less significant than Tyrion/Tysha, but it seems like they're also toning down the Boltons for similar reasons. Not that I want to see Ramsay skinning women alive, but he apparently isn't even a rapist in the show. I fear they will omit Roose's infamous "don't make me rue the day I raped your mother" as well.

But then again they invented a scene of Joffrey abusing two whores...maybe since there's no way to make the book's Tysha incident or Ramsay's games "sexy," they just leave them out.

[Annara Snow]

Trying to put myself in the head of a TV show producer, I have only this to speculate about:

We can see the genesis of some decisions as coming from what is possible to pull off on TV, and what would look lame - for example: the Bloody Mummers sellswords were cut from the show. I don't agree with every way that was handled, but I at least can see the reason why they did it - the flamboyance of certain characters simply cannot be transfered to the screen, without coming off as campy.

Another aspect of what the show chooses to simplify or exclude is based on factors like budget: less scenes of battles, less locations, less characters (reduced casting). Clearly they are putting out some expensive episodes with what they do include, but some of the reductions clearly come from a cost control perspective.

However...

Sometimes the show pulls back from what is in the books, for "self-censorship" or "that won't work for the target audience" reasons. They are toning certain things down, being a bit risk averse - which may surprise people to hear, considering how much the show pushes the edge already. The actors have done an excellent job of playing their roles: Maisie, Peter, Sophie, Lena, etc. - but sometimes I have the feeling that the producers and show writers are tampering with things in the plot and dialogue that they don't think the audience will be able to handle.

With Tyrion's storyline, without getting too spoiler-y, the glaring omission was: TYSHA. All the other stuff, like Dinklage not being intrisically ugly, is small potatoes.

When you think about what's gone wrong with the Tyrion story / character, try doing so without reference to Tysha. In the books, this is the apex of the tension between him and his father, the reason for many of Tyrion's actions re: Shae and other whores, and the great shame of Jaime's life (when he regrets vistually nothing else) - not to mention the darkest aspect of Tyrion's character.

I am picturing a meeting of HBO executives, where the plotline of the extremely-important-to-HBO Tyrion character was explained, and why Tyrion kills Shae and finally kills his father. They hear about Tysha - the plot arc leading to Jaime's reveal and Tyrion's reaction, and what it all means - and shit hits the fan. "Tyrion is a hero, the audience wouldn't stand for it !" they declare, and the change is made.

It is not that Tysha never existed on HBO - The storyline was even set up in season 1, thanks to the little tale he tells to Bronn and Shae. Yet, when the moment of truth came, the show balked at actually using it.

They probably took a look the audience and thought they would never handle a protagonist that dark; certain acts are so touchy, they probably feared the media firestorm over the Tysha situation would permanently ruin the character and thus the whole show. This isn't Craster, or Ramsay, or even Jaime, who started the show as a confirmed villain; people are supposed to like Tyrion.

If the Tysha situation is salvagable, at all (if we are to have faith in the show's writers at this point), I can only think that they could be saving it up to reveal later - somehow, once Tyrion and Jaime are separated. The gut-wrenching impact of the reveal would be lost, compared to when it was supposed to happen, but at least the lynchpin of Tyrion's character and motivations for future actions would be preserved.

I agree that the show has whitewashed Tyrion on many occasions (the lack of Symon Silvertongue, his behavior on the wedding night with Sansa, his vengeful feelings toward Vale in general, the murder of Shae, even things like poisoning Cersei to incapacitate her...), but I don't see how including the revelation about Tysha would make Tyrion looks worse or darker. I don't see how that makes Tyrion look bad, It only makes Tywin look much worse and darker than he already seemed.

And Tyrion then murders Tywin, which seems much more justified in the books than in the show - so, if this changes the way Tyrion looks, it's not for the better. Removing Tysha takes away a lot of the tragedy and emotional resonance of that scene. Tyrion looks even hypocritical as he tells Tywin not to call Shae a whore - he's just killed her, and now he's protecting her honor? He's also called her whore himself the last time he talked about her (to Jaime), so it's "I can do it, but you aren't allowed to"? Not to mention that the entire motivation for Tyrion to go up to the Tower of the Hand in the first place - before he knew Shae was there - was missing.

[melx]

" and Jaime must have the spike beside her, he decided. No one must ever come between my brother and my sister."

and

turning coldblooded murder in self defense ....

whitewash of Tyrion is an criminal act, Jaime character arc ( starting to paying his debts / taking responsibilities ) was damaged too

[Colonel Green]

Not to mention that the entire motivation for Tyrion to go up to the Tower of the Hand in the first place - before h knew Shae was there - was missing.

That's my single-biggest problem with Tysha being omitted. I don't really have a problem believing that TV!Tyrion, if he found himself facing Tywin while armed with a loaded crossbow, might decide to kill him. I do have a problem with how TV!Tyrion would ever have ended up facing Tywin with while armed with a loaded crossbow.

[Woman of War]

whitewash of Tyrion is an criminal act, Jaime character arc ( starting to paying his debts / taking responsibilities ) was damaged too

"Criminal act" may be a slight exaggeration...... we are talking books after all.

Cat was "whitewashed" when she wanted Jon in Bran's place.

Sandor was when he did not threaten Sansa.

Cersei was several times, with her first child, in her relationship to Joffrey and when Joffrey was given the responsibility for the murder of Robert's children.

Sansa was when she did not betray Ned like in the books.

All criminal acts? Why then Tyrion?

Though I admit that leaving out Tysha in all her importance for Tyrion's story bothers me too. But the showmakers had written themselves into a dead end here already in the first season when they made Tyrion sixteen at his time wit Tysha. A thirteen year old being forced by his father into an unwanted sexual act is clearly a traumatized abused child, while the adult is the abuser of both Tysha and Tyrion. But the audience would have expected a sixteen year old to stand up to his father and not to "go last". So keeping this storyline but not the ages would actually have been "blackwashing". And we know why Sansa could not undress in the show.

But yes, they could have kept everything else with Tysha. I found the chapter where Tyrion lies wounded, miserable and alone, believing to die, and remembers Tysha, to be one of the most touching chapters in the books. And so I am sad that Tysha does not get the importance she deserves, for her character's sake and for Tyrion's.

I am not so much bothered by a lack of reason for Tyrion to go up there since Tywin had done enough, this conflict simply had finally boiled over. And the two brothers parting like they did in the books was one of the most painful parts to read. And yet - Tyrion has to be left by everyone, haunted and totally desperate, hitting rock bottom emotionally and physically is important before he finds his way back. Apart from that - Jaime was considerably "whitewashed" too because Tysha in the series may have been in for money and Jaime never produced that gross lie.

That devastating experience, having had a part in destroying his only love that was real, is indeed important for Tyrion as character.

I do not care if Tyrion is "morally improved", I love the books and the HBO character, but he has certainly been stripped of some complexity.

Edit: and I am sure Dinklage would have been incredibly strong in the even darker turns as well.