[SPOILERS] We Need To Talk About Tyrion: How HBO Failed George R. R. Martin’s Iconic Character

[Lord Sapna]

I agree it took a lot of complexity out of the Jaime and Tyrion relationship, but meh "Where do whores go." ruined Tyrion for me. The truth is he needs a bit of whitewashing on the show. With the Starks either dead or fading as characters. You need someone to root for. Same reason Samwell is brave on screen. A self pity filled whiney Tyrion wouldn't be fun to watch.

Also so Dinklidge is good looking. Well whats the plan there? Do people think the correct move should have been hire a terrible actor who was ugly as sin? Martin wanted Dinklidge to play Tyrion himself.

Shae may have seemed to love Tyrion on the show, but actually her betrayal just made her look like what she essentially was a money hungry whore. Her betrayal was still very effective. Tyrion was justified in going after his father anyway after he allowed that joke of a trial.

[Woman of War]

I agree it took a lot of complexity out of the Jaime and Tyrion relationship, but meh "Where do whores go." ruined Tyrion for me. The truth is he needs a bit of whitewashing on the show. With the Starks either dead or fading as characters. You need someone to root for. Same reason Samwell is brave on screen. A self pity filled whiney Tyrion wouldn't be fun to watch.

Hm, I do not think it was overdone in the books but you are right, as movie it should be toned down, given the limited screen time. Though I was willing to root for Tyrion even when he was at his most miserable.

Also so Dinklidge is good looking. Well whats the plan there? Do people think the correct move should have been hire a terrible actor who was ugly as sin? Martin wanted Dinklidge to play Tyrion himself.

this. Martin knew that he would get an excellent actor.

I think the whole "too good looking" argument is nonsense and only reflecting our modern approach to physical handicap. We have learned to see the person himself and most of us are free from superstition. I do not want to be patronizing, being of average height myself, but I think the situation of a little people child today is very different from the situation a few hundred years ago.

In a timesetting like Westeros it simply did not matter if a person was a pretty dwarf. Being born physically deviant was a curse by the gods, a punishment for hybris, a sign of comlipicity with demons, in a superstitious world like that a person born handicapped represented alienation from gods. People feared and despised him because the curse might rub off. He was ill omen as husband not only because he was ugly but because people were people of their prejudiced timesetting and did not even consider to see the person behind the cripple. Tyrion could have been the most handsome dwarf in the world and he would still be a dwarf . So the actor is just what he should be: different from normal.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Actually I believe that some kind of mutual recognition, a spark of understanding and forgiveness may happen between Cersei and Tyrion even in the books - though yet Cersei will probably die in the end. This would be Martin's kind of so-called whitewashing. Except that if Martin does it it is not blasphemous whitewashing but it is named redemption and therefore safe from any criticism by fans :)

I would love a story turn like that, before the background that no one is wholly evil (a personal philosophical conviction that goes along poorly with most fantasy fiction) and that Martin is subtle here. Apart from that both Lannister siblings are among my very favorite characters. But if a talk should happen (and Tyrion cursing Cersei in that ugly manner now hints at some other option later) I am sure that the show will make wide use of it as redemptive element for both characters. Headey and Dinklage in one scene is pure gold. And some fans will call it "whitewashing".

And some fans will even call the interpretation of the Walk Of Shame whitewashing since Cersei "had it coming". If the show takes the position of the woman hunted down by religious fanatics it will be called that stupid name by some fans. And if the show describes it as just punishment it would be horribly misogynistic in my eyes.

Whitewashing, i.e. the quantification of morality, is not the point for me, it is loss of differenciation, of complexity for a character.

Because it would be whitewashing. Cersei was not the victim of some zealous religious persecution, she simply got caught in the snares of a trap she had laid for Margaery, another innocent woman whom she had no problem framing for a crime to satisfy her own paranoia and ego.

She ends up suffering the fate that she had planned for Margaery had her scheme to frame Margaery succeeded. And the only reason she fails is that the religious authorities weren't nearly the fanatics that she presumed they'd be. That they weren't a crazy hammer wielding bunch who were looking for a nail in every corner but were actually interested digging deeper into the truth of the accusation.

The only misogynist in this whole scenario is Cersei herself, and the tragedy of her punishment is that she brought the whole thing on herself.

If the show turns this scenario into a cliched knock off of "The Scarlet Letter", which I highly suspect they will, they will have completely missed the real depth of her story arc.

[Caesar Targaryen]

https://imgflip.com/i/etije

[geocool]

I had long thought that the show writers would have to change the story in the S4 finale to have Tyrion discover Shae murdered in Tywin's bed. That would be the final straw that makes him snap, and then he would believably commit patricide and we could avoid a rehash of the Tysha storyline.

Shae was portrayed so sympathetically I couldn't believe they'd have Tyrion kill her on the show. But they did, and left out the Tysha story to boot. WTF? How does Tyrion get to be likable now? He won't even have his "where do whores go" refrain.

[Smart]

The exclusion of Tysha does make Tyrion's actions much more unjustified. With Shae, they at least have her try to kill him.

Still, Dinklage's performance is remarkable.

[Colonel Green]

Do you mean "justified" in the sense of why he kills Tywin? Tywin's done more than enough to deserve that in the show. That's the aspect of the story that's impacted the least by Tysha's exclusion, really.

[midi]

I had long thought that the show writers would have to change the story in the S4 finale to have Tyrion discover Shae murdered in Tywin's bed. That would be the final straw that makes him snap, and then he would believably commit patricide and we could avoid a rehash of the Tysha storyline.

Shae was portrayed so sympathetically I couldn't believe they'd have Tyrion kill her on the show. But they did, and left out the Tysha story to boot. WTF? How does Tyrion get to be likable now? He won't even have his "where do whores go" refrain.

He gets to be likeable again by becoming Dany's sidekick. Or perhaps those two can be unlikeable together. They are accelerating his story remarkably. Which may be for the better.

Nonetheless Tyrion is still much more likeable and less grey character in the TV show, even after he killed Shae and Tywin.

[shadow282]

Absolutely wrong, and here's why: The show merges Tysha and Shae.

They're right about book Shae, she's just a whore after Tyrion's money. She doesn't really care about him. Tyrion still loves her but deep down he knows she doesn't love him. Her betraying him and sleeping with his father hurts but really pales in comparison to what Jaime just told him about Tysha.

Show Shae, like Tysha, clearly loves him. She's deeply hurt about him wanting to sleep with Sansa and him marrying Sansa. Varys offers her enough money to live comfortably the rest of her life but she doesn't leave. Her betrayal coupled with his father sleeping with her and her immediately trying to kill him have essentially the same effect as the Tysha reveal. The fact that she almost definitely didn't have any choice in the matter makes Tywin's actions terrible, even if it's not as bad as the Tysha incident.

Everything fits in place essentially the same as the book. Tyrion still gets to be depressed about losing the woman he loved. The only difference is he won't keep asking people where whores go, which I see as a definite improvement.

[jaimereborn]

Absolutely wrong, and here's why: The show merges Tysha and Shae.

They're right about book Shae, she's just a whore after Tyrion's money. She doesn't really care about him. Tyrion still loves her but deep down he knows she doesn't love him. Her betraying him and sleeping with his father hurts but really pales in comparison to what Jaime just told him about Tysha.

Show Shae, like Tysha, clearly loves him. She's deeply hurt about him wanting to sleep with Sansa and him marrying Sansa. Varys offers her enough money to live comfortably the rest of her life but she doesn't leave. Her betrayal coupled with his father sleeping with her and her immediately trying to kill him have essentially the same effect as the Tysha reveal. The fact that she almost definitely didn't have any choice in the matter makes Tywin's actions terrible, even if it's not as bad as the Tysha incident.

Everything fits in place essentially the same as the book. Tyrion still gets to be depressed about losing the woman he loved. The only difference is he won't keep asking people where whores go, which I see as a definite improvement.

this is a drastic oversimplification. the only difference? no. tyrion's relationship with jaime was destroyed in the books because of the tysha reveal - and feeling like he has noone on his side anymore, even his own family, is a massive part of the dark turn his character takes after ASOS and leaves him with essentially no ties in Westeros. i have a feeling this will have a strong effect on his end game and the actions he may end up taking against his own family.

[shadow282]

this is a drastic oversimplification. the only difference? no. tyrion's relationship with jaime was destroyed in the books because of the tysha reveal - and feeling like he has noone on his side anymore, even his own family, is a massive part of the dark turn his character takes after ASOS and leaves him with essentially no ties in Westeros. i have a feeling this will have a strong effect on his end game and the actions he may end up taking against his own family.

Yeah, but as of right now that relationship doesn't matter. Yes, in the books it was an important reason for his dark turn. But it's hardly necessary. Killing the woman he loves after she completely betrays him is plenty of reason for him to turn dark. He doesn't need the hate towards Jaime.

Tyrion and Jaime haven't met again, and it's quite possible that they never meet again. Which would make the difference between him parting badly with Jaime and him parting well with Jaime meaningless. Or if they do meet again at some point something else can come between them. Or Tyrion learns the truth later. Saying something is a bad portrayal because it might at some point possibly effect how he treats the family he might never see again seems like a silly complaint. Tyrion's state of mind in both the book and the show are close enough. He has plenty of reasons to be angry and plenty to be depressed. He may have a little less than in the book but he still has enough that his storyline doesn't need to significantly change.

[C.T. Phipps]

I love George R.R. Martin as a God of Writing as much as the next Westeros fanatic.

However, the show has its ups and downs.

The Lannisters getting portrayed more as human beings and less as grotesques is a good thing.

And the entire Tysha thing STILL works as far as I'm concerned.

Because now Tyrion murdered someone who cared for him.

[Annara Snow]

I love George R.R. Martin as a God of Writing as much as the next Westeros fanatic.

However, the show has its ups and downs.

The Lannisters getting portrayed more as human beings and less as grotesques is a good thing.

And the entire Tysha thing STILL works as far as I'm concerned.

Because now Tyrion murdered someone who cared for him.

The Lannisters were portrayed as human beings in the book. I don't know what you mean by "grotesques". The difference is, they were written consistently in the books, unile the show versions of Tywin, Cersei and Jaime (he was OK until season 4, but I don't know what the hell they were trying to do with his arc), and Tyrion is far less interesting in the show.

[Annara Snow]

I agree it took a lot of complexity out of the Jaime and Tyrion relationship, but meh "Where do whores go." ruined Tyrion for me. The truth is he needs a bit of whitewashing on the show. With the Starks either dead or fading as characters. You need someone to root for. Same reason Samwell is brave on screen. A self pity filled whiney Tyrion wouldn't be fun to watch.

Oh come on. How do so many people like/root for Tyrion in the books? Or Jaime? Or Dany? Or Stannis? Or Arya, for that matter - who is still morally grey on the show and getting darker, and people still love her (and she's not showing signs of fading as a character)?

For that matter, how did so many people love The Sopranos or Breaking Bad, whose leads are far darker than Tyrion, how do they like shows like Boardwalk Empire or The House of Cards etc.?

The idea that people need a clear "good guy" protagonist to root for in wrong. And even if that were true, that's Jon Snow for you - who is definitely not showing any signs of fading as a character, on the contrary - next book/season is his biggest one. You also get Davos, Brienne (even though the showrunners for some reason seems to think she's too nice in the books, kind of the opposite of Tyrion), Sam... There are lots of more clearly good people in the show, there's no need to simplify such a complex character as Tyrion and try to make him into a saint under the pretense that people wouldn't like him and they need to like him, as evidenced by the facts that 1) he's one of the most popular characters among book readers, so there was no need for the show to "fix" him, and 2) the readers who dislike Tyrion did not drop the series just because they don't like him at all/his behavior in ADWD and/or ASOS.

The showrunners would do good to remember that very useful saying: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and drop the idea that they can "improve" on Martin's characters, especially when they're trying to make certain characters more "likable" by making them blander, so they couldn't possibly offend anyone or cause any controversy and polarizing feelings as they do among book readers - which is an especially silly idea in this series. We're not dealing with a Disney movie here.

And what does that have to do with Samwell? He is also brave in the books. They didn't change anything in that regard other than the timeline of when he kills the White Walker.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

^^^i agree completely. With most of my favorite tv shows of late, breaking bad, soa etc the main characters have become very grey and do some horrible things yet they are still loved by the audience. I never hear an SOA fan say I loved the show till Jax killed an innocent mom, nope it happens and everyone moves on. And especially with GOT people should expect by now that things aren't going to be black and white.

[C.T. Phipps]

The Lannisters were portrayed as human beings in the book. I don't know what you mean by "grotesques". The difference is, they were written consistently in the books, unile the show versions of Tywin, Cersei and Jaime (he was OK until season 4, but I don't know what the hell they were trying to do with his arc), and Tyrion is far less interesting in the show.

The books pull a trick on the readers by introducing the Lannisters as cartoonishly evil incestous child-murderers and plotters before pulling back the curtain to reveal their nuance. It's a great trick for a book but the show starts them off as nuanced characters and I think that makes things better. I also think George R.R. Martin made a mistake in keeping Cersei as the "evil" one of the Lannister siblings with no real redeeming features whatsoever. Having Joffrey as the murderer of the bastards works much better, IMHO.

I actually like Tyrion's "arc" in the story too.

Tyrion shapes up a lot when he's King's Hand and becomes a much more respectable figure.

Which Tywin ignores.

[Colonel Green]

Tyrion shapes up a lot when he's King's Hand and becomes a much more respectable figure.

Which Tywin ignores.

That also happened in the book, so I don't see the difference.

[C.T. Phipps]

That also happened in the book, so I don't see the difference.

The Tyrion in the book still has some truly contemptible qualities which when absent shows that Tyrion could have been a proper lord had Tywin just given him a chance.

[Colonel Green]

People in general have "contemptible qualities". Tyrion in the book was acting like a proper lord, and could have continued to do so had Tywin given him the chance. Making Tyrion one-dimensional does not improve his character.

[Annara Snow]

The Tyrion in the book still has some truly contemptible qualities which when absent shows that Tyrion could have been a proper lord had Tywin just given him a chance.

Like what?

If you mean stuff that shows that he can scheme and use dishonorable means or generally not being perfectly moral, like poisoning Cersei to get her incapacitated or shrugging at Timett killing a guy who cheated at cards and the clansmen's behavior in KL in general (sticking just with ACOK) or things like sending Bronn to murder Symon Silvertongue and turn him into a bowl of brown, these are things Tywin should have been proud of and that show that Tyrion may actually have the potential to be a lord Tywin-style (not nearly as extreme, fortunately - I don't think Tyrion even at his worst can approach Tywin's usual level of assholedom [assholeness? assholery?]).

Show Tyrion is portrayed almost as a saint, at least from season 2 onwards, and by season 3, Olenna's description of him as a boring accountant was spot-on. They couldn't even let him go properly dark in season 4 other than the court scene.