Michael Brown shooting six

[Gertrude]

Kyrion, I believe that both sides are relating the story as they recall it and have come to believe, embellishing where they can with details to cast their version in a better light. I mean, that's just human nature.

This is the exact interview I had heard that I commented on earlier. At one point Johnson said something along the lines of, 'Mike was explaining that he didn't have a weapon and asking why are you firing a gun at me?' The interviewer stopped and asked if Brown specifically said that and Johnson said, no, he was about to and then he was shot again. That's the part that makes me think Johnson is projecting in the telling of the story. I'm not saying he is lying, just that he remembers what happened from his point of view and that includes all of the emotion and anger and how that effects your reality.

Have you never had to apologize because you said something that someone took the wrong way, or did something that was perceived in a different way in which it was meant? This is what I think probably happened (only a guess, I am not trying to justify anyone's actions). Wilson was probably more aggressive in the initial encounter than he thinks or remembers he was (or is lying to save his ass), and it's possible the boys were showing a bit of attitude as well through body language or whatever. (remember, total speculation). I absolutely agree that Wilson used loaded words like demon and hulk to bolster his story and they were unnecessary. They were specifically used to conjure up 'big scary black man' images.

My point is that both sides are probably lying. From my limited understanding of the Grand Jury process, I think that Wilson should have been indited. It seems there is plenty of evidence and grey areas that a court would be better suited to sort out.

I think Wilson handled the situation wrongly and Brown did not deserve to die. Even if Brown stole the cigars, initiated contact, grabbed for the gun and rushed Wilson - all of it - he didn't deserve to die for any of it.

However, I think this particular case is lost and it's a done deal. Railing against the system and judgement is not going to do anything by itself. There have been many suggestions on how to make sure this never happens again, and I think this is the most important thing to focus on at this point in time. Body cameras, liasons, outside oversight, etc. I'd rather see people use this moment to make changes and honor Brown that way rather than just give into anger about things they can't change.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Shryke,

So, was the person non-violently interposing themself between the rioters bent on destroying property and the object of their desire to destroy no better than a moral neutral rather than a moral good?

[NoneofYourBiz]

Listen to Johnson's story yourself-

Dorian Johnson, whose testimony was often at odds with forensics and who has a history of lying to the police?

[Shryke]

Shryke,

So, was the person non-violently interposing themself between the rioters bent on destroying property and the object of their desire to destroy no better than a moral neutral rather than a moral good?

I have no idea wtf you think this has to do with what I said.

[Shryke]

This divergence in testimony over time is one of the reasons you write incident reports right away.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

There is one piece of forensics that has been barely discussed that's rather interesting:

Wilson claims that his gun was holstered, and that Brown reached for it. He specifically said he reached with his right arm towards the gun. But the gun was on Wilson's right hip. This is not logical, nor is it physically easy to do. I mean, try for yourself. It's a really awkward motion.

Which makes me think Wilson drew his gun earlier then he indicated. This is a small detail of course, but it may shed some light on the nature of the encounter.

[Kalbear]

There is one piece of forensics that has been barely discussed that's rather interesting:

Wilson claims that his gun was holstered, and that Brown reached for it. He specifically said he reached with his right arm towards the gun. But the gun was on Wilson's right hip. This is not logical, nor is it physically easy to do. I mean, try for yourself. It's a really awkward motion.

Which makes me think Wilson drew his gun earlier then he indicated. This is a small detail of course, but it may shed some light on the nature of the encounter.

thats a really good point.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Also, I don't know if this belongs in the police thread or this one, but there was an excellent study done on race relations with po, rlice (which I sadly have not been able to find the link to). Basically what it found was what was expected, but with a twist:

When police patrol low crime, typically well off communities, they usually have good relations with the community, regardless of the race of the cops and the community.

When they patrol traditional middle class communities, the relations are also pretty good. This fact and the last fact are not really surprising, but what was discovered about poorer, high crime communities was:

Basically race is everything and nothing. The cop's race doesn't matter. It's the community's that does. If you have a majority (blank) ethnic background, in a high crime, economically depressed area, that ethnic background is going to be seen as the problem.

Why does this matter? Because we will never truly know if Wilson is a racist. The transcript makes me think he is, but we can't know for sure. But what you can infer is that Wilson worked in a majority black, high crime (artificially high due to excessive police stops from profiling), that is economically depressed, so it's quite likely that he was very biased when he profiled Brown.

Shame a child had to die over all this madness.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Anyone know if Wilson is a righty or a lefty?

[The Fallen]

Wilson is a liar, plain and simple. In the CNN interview, he claims he said "Why dont you get on the sidewalk"

The Witness Dorian Johnson claims he said" Get the **** on the sidewalk".

We all know and dealt with cops, they establish authority immediately. Wilson claims throughout the exchange he was calm, cool, and collected. Thats utter BS. Dorian claims that both Wilson and Brown were angry, and cussing. Who do we truly believe? And to add to that, if Wilson is lying about his actions, why wouldnt he be lying about everything else?

There's also a video that Dante Gabriel posted that shows Darren Wilson being aggressive with another individual.

I'm guessing that's a fair assumption. If the store owner called 911 and reported a robbery, I would think it fairly likely that it would go out over the radio before a report was filed.

The police chief said initially that Wilson didn't know about the 911 call. Wouldn't that be the more accurate statement. I doubt the chief would have made that statement without talking to Wilson, but especially because saying Wilson knew about the call bolsters his story. Could the chief be that incompetent when it comes to looking out for his own?

Right, gonna need some evidence this is the case. Cause it seems like in this case the only explanation for this being a thing is so the cops can stack the deck in their favour. I mean this works for normal citizens, but your average citizen doesn't have this many contacts in the police force.

ETA: And if this was his rationale wouldn't he be on record somewhere as having stated that?

Here in NYC, cops get 48 hours before they have to file a report. Supposedly, it's so that they can get over the trauma of what just happened and be able to recollect the events. It's been criticized, rightly so, as allowing them to craft a favorable story.

[TrueMetis]

Here in NYC, cops get 48 hours before they have to file a report. Supposedly, it's so that they can get over the trauma of what just happened and be able to recollect the events. It's been criticized, rightly so, as allowing them to craft a favorable story.

That's also way more than enough time for their memories to actually be wrong.

[Ned Snow]

I just wanted to pop back in and say that without looking at the relevant statutes, the facts being tossed about by both sides in this thread don't have legal meaning. You have to apply the law to the facts (or apply the facts to the law, as some might word it - after all, juries hear ALL of the facts before getting its instructions from the judge), bearing in mind the appropriate standard of proof (probable cause generally means a fair probability, whatever that's supposed to mean. Gut sense? At least a 1 in 4 chance? It's vague, what a shock!). Otherwise you're just talking about feelings, which is cool for a message board. That's what most people in the thread are talking about anyway, what they think based on what they have read about and expressing whether or not there should/should not have been an indictment. But we do NOT want jurors doing this. Americans, you'll be thankful that juries can only consider the evidence before them and the law as described.

NB: I'm not trying to imply people in here don't understand this, but I thought it should be said because from what I've seen no one is talking into account that the grand jury was looking to the laws, not just the facts. (I use "laws" because the prosecutor didn't recommend a charge and gave a laundry list for the GJ to consider.)

[The Fallen]

I think the attention focused on whether Wilson is racist misses the point.

Which is that police departments and the justice system, as a whole, is inherently racist. And so there's a prevailing attitude akin to this Mos Def line, "the length of black life is treated with short worth." This attitude then leads to black men (and children) not getting a second thought before the trigger gets pulled. And the black community is tired of that shit.

[Talleyrand]

Anyone know if Wilson is a righty or a lefty?

Well I can't imagine they'd go about letting socialists into the Police

[Kyrion]

Kyrion, I believe that both sides are relating the story as they recall it and have come to believe, embellishing where they can with details to cast their version in a better light. I mean, that's just human nature.

This is the exact interview I had heard that I commented on earlier. At one point Johnson said something along the lines of, 'Mike was explaining that he didn't have a weapon and asking why are you firing a gun at me?' The interviewer stopped and asked if Brown specifically said that and Johnson said, no, he was about to and then he was shot again. That's the part that makes me think Johnson is projecting in the telling of the story. I'm not saying he is lying, just that he remembers what happened from his point of view and that includes all of the emotion and anger and how that effects your reality.

Have you never had to apologize because you said something that someone took the wrong way, or did something that was perceived in a different way in which it was meant? This is what I think probably happened (only a guess, I am not trying to justify anyone's actions). Wilson was probably more aggressive in the initial encounter than he thinks or remembers he was (or is lying to save his ass), and it's possible the boys were showing a bit of attitude as well through body language or whatever. (remember, total speculation). I absolutely agree that Wilson used loaded words like demon and hulk to bolster his story and they were unnecessary. They were specifically used to conjure up 'big scary black man' images.

My point is that both sides are probably lying. From my limited understanding of the Grand Jury process, I think that Wilson should have been indited. It seems there is plenty of evidence and grey areas that a court would be better suited to sort out.

I think Wilson handled the situation wrongly and Brown did not deserve to die. Even if Brown stole the cigars, initiated contact, grabbed for the gun and rushed Wilson - all of it - he didn't deserve to die for any of it.

However, I think this particular case is lost and it's a done deal. Railing against the system and judgement is not going to do anything by itself. There have been many suggestions on how to make sure this never happens again, and I think this is the most important thing to focus on at this point in time. Body cameras, liasons, outside oversight, etc. I'd rather see people use this moment to make changes and honor Brown that way rather than just give into anger about things they can't change.

Ok, I agree with everything said here.

And The video dante provided I didnt get to see, was it in a previous thread? I came here when you guys were at 6 already lol

[Tywin Manderly]

Well I can't imagine they'd go about letting socialists into the Police

Really? ;)

[Tywin Manderly]

We are past 400 posts. You can continue the discussion in the thread below.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121035-michael-brown-shooting-the-aftermath-of-the-grand-jury-decision/