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Septa Lemore is not Ashara Dayne v2


JonCon's Red Beard

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Burden of proof is the big thing here.



Also, the tragedy of Ashara's death is such a good story element, from a literary perspective, I personally would be sad to see it go.



I believe GRRM to be of the Tom Stoppard school of drama, "The bad end unhappily, the good, unluckily. That is what tragedy means."


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(kinda not quite busy now, so filling in:)



Lemore and Ashara share certain generic features:


- Westerosi


- of (possibly) noble birth


- had a baby


- dark hair



Some more generic features that cannot be fully established:


- dark hair vs brown hair - may be the same and may not


- age - Ashara would be in her 30s, Lemore is in her 40s but Tyrion's estimate may be wrong



Ashara-specific features which are neither mentioned nor hinted in connection with Lemore:


- purple eyes


- details of the past (connection to Rhaegar and Elia, Ashara's dishonour, connection to the Starks)


- pre-Aegon acquaintance (Ashara and JonCon danced at HH and possibly met before/afterwards)



Lemore-specific features that do not match with Ashara:


- her role restricted solely to teaching Aegon the Faith

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Even though corbon will roll his eyes and start disputing the logic of this, here we go again. (Just for the record, I am aware of the possible flaws in thinking)



For me, this question has always been intertwined with the question of Aegon's legitimacy. Basically, if you believe Aegon is real, Lemore is perfect Ashara. But, if you think he is fake, then, Lemore is someone else. It is my opinion that if Varys indeed smuggled real Aegon, then he would have needed a mother for a child. In lack of appropriate mother roles (that we know of), I assume that Varys would turn to one of Elia's friends and maids - Ashara Dayne. Ashara followed Elia for quite some time. We don't know since when she was her maid, but we can assess that she was with Elia during and some time after Aegon's birth given the data Barristan provided in ADWD and data from TWOIAF. Thus, Ashara would be acquainted with the child, and the thing with JonCon would be much more difficult to preform out of basic need and timing.



But, if the child isn't Aegon, the entire thing falls like house of cards. I suppose that Varys didn't have a child immediately after the Sack to lure Ashara. Arguably, he could have tricked her, but I find that rather implausible (even though it is perfectly possible, as corbon stated several times). With all the pieces of foreshadowing, shady story etc pointing that YG is not Aegon, I am thus concluding, based on what I have said, that Lemore can't be Ashara.



It is perhaps a flawed opinion, but I believe in it.


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If Lemore was Ashara, George would have mentinoed her haunting violet eyes. Since he did not, Ashara cannot be Lemore.

:D

Tyrion's POV never mentioned her eyes be they violet, blue, brown or anything else. Almost as if the author was going out of her way to keep something from being completely obvious.

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Isn't Lemore the septa that Oberyn begat one of the Sand Snakes on? Some have suggested that Ashara is Quaithe... I think Ashara is dead as advertised. :)

Tyene's mother is still in Westeros, as Arianne and Tyene have visited not long ago, apparently. Lemore has been with Aegon for around the last ten years or so.

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^ That's the theory for anyone who believes in the Dornish master plan, but it kind of flies in the face of Dorans actions to date, so far as we have seen. He seemed genuinely surprised by Aegon in the Arianne sample chapters.

Tyene's mother is still in Westeros, as Arianne and Tyene have visited not long ago, apparently. Lemore has been with Aegon for around the last ten years or so.

Ah -- I haven't read the TWOW chapters except 'Mercy' yet.

What's the consensus on Ashara as Quaithe? :)

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Tyrion's POV never mentioned her eyes be they violet, blue, brown or anything else. Almost as if the author was going out of her way to keep something from being completely obvious.

As it was repeated constantly in the old thread, that's a failed argument. Authors don't do that: authors plant hints and clues. This is not real life. This is analysis of literature, and in this way, the author controls everything, even what is casual, it's not actually casual: it's the author that makes the casual happens.

The only way an author has to communicate with us, the readers, is through the characters, even if they aren't aware. Take, for instance, the whole "a woman who is like a fish" vision. Arya didn't know, but WE DID know. Or at least, we were meant to know the vision meant Cat after the Red Wedding.

In the original thread I mentioned Connington because he's a character that, unlike Ashara, has already returned from the death. Jon, like Ashara, is suspiciously mentioned in Storm and Feast (by Halden, Jaime, Cersei and Barristan), and while neither Halden or Jaime are actually implying that he's alive, we, are readers are meant to: "wait, why mentioning so many times this dead guy's name? Maybe... he's not really dead???". Also, all of the instances he's mentioned, he's linked to the Targaryens and Rhaegar. And, at the end, he reapeared as a friend of Rhaegar who is still loyal to the dragons.

Also, why bothering on making Ronnet red haired and wearing griffins? Ronnet is -so far- such a unimportant character. Yet, when Tyrion meets Griff, WE, NOT TYRION, are meant to realise that one is the "dead" lord Jon of House Connington, as not only the "griff" name is telling, but also, the red hair who has subtly been introduced before and links him to his cousin. Tyrion realises this later than we, readers, are meant to.

This doesn't happen with Ashara. Ashara's main feature are the eyes. That's the one description mostly everybody remembers of her. Tyrion didn't need to realise that Lemore is Ashara, only noticing the eyes. That would be for US READERS to realise who she is as Tyrion probably didn't even know who Ashara Dayne was.

Authors don't keep stuff and later, they suddenly make them appear out of nothing. Ned kept secrets in his mind, but we do know he kept a secret related to Lyanna. He often talks in good terms about Rhaegar, the "rapist". He even said he was a better man (kinda) than Robert, his best friend. That's QUITE A LOT to tell us what is happening with the whole RLJ situation. In Tyrion's case, he didn't need to say "oh, she's Ashara dayne!", only, mentioning that this woman had purple eyes, and that was odd. That was enough for us to be revealed of something without been told.

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Tyrion's POV never mentioned her eyes be they violet, blue, brown or anything else. Almost as if the author was going out of her way to keep something from being completely obvious.

In the case of Egg, fAegon, Daemon II and Ned Dayne, George mentioned their purple eyes before he revealed their true identities not long after. In this case, there has to be a reasonable explanation why George didnot reveal Ashara's identity along with everyone else. She is not in a position to be guarding super-secrets or spoil anything.

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I don't see it as a conclusive argument one way or the other. I also don't see it debunked as a possibility. Quite frankly the jury's still out on her be it Ashara, Qaithe, one of the Sand Snakes mothers or just some random chick named Lemore. Authors not planting an orgy of evidence for the reader or deliberately withholding certain details from them happens from time to time. It's part of what keeps things mysterious and coincidentally keeps their options open. Not mentioning her eye color seems a fairly intentional oversight, especially how enamored Tyrion seemed to be with her. Though I suppose most of his attention was lower.


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I wonder if we've bumped these poll results any since a year and a half ago (question #3): https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1JlAGOh7AUFqojFuHOGqNBDbqGyhNADHtmbG89-TLNOs/viewanalytics. No wonder we keep going in circles when the fanbase is so split.

That was some interesting reading. Though yeah, some of those could be updated a bit I think. Maybe it's time for a new round of polling. :)

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I wonder if we've bumped these poll results any since a year and a half ago (question #3): https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1JlAGOh7AUFqojFuHOGqNBDbqGyhNADHtmbG89-TLNOs/viewanalytics. No wonder we keep going in circles when the fanbase is so split.

Adorable. I'm bookmarking it to laugh at all of those people when the next books are published... although I fear that by that time, there will be no internet in the world anymore...

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To respond to the "looked to" examples on the other thread:

Those given so far actually confirm the definition I gave. They do not mean to adore, desire, lust for or anything along those lines even when they refer to a sexual motive. What I mean by that is, in one of the examples, someone was "looked to" to satisfy a need. The need was pre-existing. The person in question was merely turned into a focus for a pre-existing need. So in this case, just as in the definition I gave, "looked to" means to look to for help or want something from.

To apply that to Ashara would mean that she had some kind of overwhelming need for sex that Brandon simply became her means of fulfilling. Basically it would mean Ashara was a bit of a nympho. I don't think, personally, that is what GRRM was getting at when he said "looked to".

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