R+L =J v. 115

[Ygrain]

Bu in the story we are reading, it came two books after being introduced to the idea of R+L=J. So, R+L=J takes precedence to us, the readers.

Exactly. Besides, we get plenty of hints about R+L but just a handful of Bael. That alone tells which is the story.

That would be Jaehaerys (later Jaehaerys II) and his younger sister Shaera ;)

Permission had not been given by the king, but upon discovery of the marriage, it had already been consummated, forcing the king to accept it (I personally find the 'forcing' part very interesting).

And it is a nice way of GRRM to show that even in Westeros (especially in Westeros) this can still happen.

Me too :-)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I haven't seen an explanation for why you're linking the ice wall to Tywin or Roose.

Well, you asked. And those are two male characters who display cold, hard exteriors. There's not much to go on, if you want evidence of a relationship between either of those characters and Lyanna. But there's not much evidence to support her relationship with Rhaegar, either.

I suppose the wall of ice could also represent someone we don't know much about, at this point. Lord Rickard Stark, perhaps. It could be that the vision depicts a parent-child relationship, rather than any sort of romantic involvement. I hadn't considered that, but there is something to be said for the possibility I suppose.

[The Twinslayer]

That would be Jaehaerys (later Jaehaerys II) and his younger sister Shaera ;)

Permission had not been given by the king, but upon discovery of the marriage, it had already been consummated, forcing the king to accept it (I personally find the 'forcing' part very interesting).

And it is a nice way of GRRM to show that even in Westeros (especially in Westeros) this can still happen.

Regarding the king being forced to accept, note that Duncan the Small had the option to put Jennie aside after marriage, just as Robert had the option to put Cersei aside years after their marriage was consummated. The difference with Shaera is that she was the king's daughter.

So I don't think this is supposed to indicate that Aerys would have to accept a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[sj4iy]

That would be Jaehaerys (later Jaehaerys II) and his younger sister Shaera ;)

Permission had not been given by the king, but upon discovery of the marriage, it had already been consummated, forcing the king to accept it (I personally find the 'forcing' part very interesting).

And it is a nice way of GRRM to show that even in Westeros (especially in Westeros) this can still happen.

Lol, thanks- I'm on here too early XD

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Regarding the king being forced to accept, note that Duncan the Small had the option to put Jennie aside after marriage, just as Robert had the option to put Cersei aside years after their marriage was consummated. The difference with Shaera is that she was the king's daughter.

So I don't think this is supposed to indicate that Aerys would have to accept a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Setting Cersei aside wasn't a matter of sending her back to Casterly Rock. We've already heard of an example once, when Fireball forced his wife to join the Silent Sisters, hereby making himself free of marriage.. Naerys Targaryen tried the same thing (by asking to join the Faith, not he Silent Sisters). Simply sending Cersei home, hadn't been the option. Which most likely was why she was so scared.

But sure, let's compare.. Duncan and Jenny, here we have a highborn and a lowborn.. Jaehaerys and Shaera, both are highborn.. but Rhaegar and Lyanna also both are highborn.. so they would fall in the category of Jaehaerys/Shaera, not in the category of Duncan/Jenny (and, one could argue, Tyrion/Tysha).

[Alia of the knife]

I don't think anyone is trying to utterly dissociate Lyanna from the roses and saying it can only be Jon. Lyanna is part of this equation. But I'm struggling with those who want to remove Rhaegar totally. Jon is the blue rose by way of Lyanna and Rhaegar. It links the three of them.

No, I agree with that, and when you factor in the symbolism of the meaning of the blue rose, Rhaegar as the person giving it to Lyanna adds another layer of tragedy.

[Alia of the knife]

Blue Rose:

http://www.roseforlove.com/the-meanings-of-blue-roses-ezp-39

Certainly given their positions at yhe time of Harrenhal, Lyanna was both elusive and unattainable.

[MtnLion]

Ooh, I just had a thought- Ned said that he went down to the crypts to bring her flowers often. Makes me think that he would go down to tell her how Jon was doing.

Better, yet, Ned took Jon with him to visit Lyanna's crypt . . .

[sj4iy]

Regarding the king being forced to accept, note that Duncan the Small had the option to put Jennie aside after marriage, just as Robert had the option to put Cersei aside years after their marriage was consummated. The difference with Shaera is that she was the king's daughter.

So I don't think this is supposed to indicate that Aerys would have to accept a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

It's much harder to "put aside" the wife and son of a popular crown prince. Why didn't Robert put aside Cersei? Because it would be political suicide. Same for Aerys.

[sj4iy]

Better, yet, Ned took Jon with him to visit Lyanna's crypt . . .

Just the idea makes me sad :( But I don't think Ned would have risked it. It would seem too strange for him to carry his bastard down to the crypts of the Lords of Winterfell. But taking the "flowers" for her would be a way to do it discreetly.

[MtnLion]

Well, you asked. And those are two male characters who display cold, hard exteriors. There's not much to go on, if you want evidence of a relationship between either of those characters and Lyanna. But there's not much evidence to support her relationship with Rhaegar, either.

:lmao: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :lmao:

You are supposed to use Comic Sans when being facetious.

[BearQueen87]

Well, you asked. And those are two male characters who display cold, hard exteriors. There's not much to go on, if you want evidence of a relationship between either of those characters and Lyanna. But there's not much evidence to support her relationship with Rhaegar, either.

I suppose the wall of ice could also represent someone we don't know much about, at this point. Lord Rickard Stark, perhaps. It could be that the vision depicts a parent-child relationship, rather than any sort of romantic involvement. I hadn't considered that, but there is something to be said for the possibility I suppose.

What? At the very least, R abducted her, kept her locked away, raped her, died with her name on his lips, and she died clutching the roses that symbolized the very first roses he gave her at HH. Now I tend to believe that they went off together willingly, lived in the Tower of Joy in love, had consensual sex, and died loving each other...but I'm willing to wait for Winds for that. But even if I'm 100% wrong about that, it still doesn't negate the fact that RL were together.

There's a heck of a lot more to go on than what you're presenting for Roose and Tywin which is just cold hard exterior...which could be applied to many other people as well.

Better, yet, Ned took Jon with him to visit Lyanna's crypt . . .

Oh now I have sad.

Just the idea makes me sad :( But I don't think Ned would have risked it. It would seem too strange for him to carry his bastard down to the crypts of the Lords of Winterfell. But taking the "flowers" for her would be a way to do it discretely.

*joins in sad*

[sj4iy]

:lmao: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :lmao:

You are supposed to use Comic Sans when being facetious.

Truly. Martin only references their relationship about a thousand times in all 5 books. They have more mentions than some POV characters.

[The Twinslayer]

Setting Cersei aside wasn't a matter of sending her back to Casterly Rock. We've already heard of an example once, when Fireball forced his wife to join the Silent Sisters, hereby making himself free of marriage.. Naerys Targaryen tried the same thing (by asking to join the Faith, not he Silent Sisters). Simply sending Cersei home, hadn't been the option. Which most likely was why she was so scared.

But sure, let's compare.. Duncan and Jenny, here we have a highborn and a lowborn.. Jaehaerys and Shaera, both are highborn.. but Rhaegar and Lyanna also both are highborn.. so they would fall in the category of Jaehaerys/Shaera, not in the category of Duncan/Jenny (and, one could argue, Tyrion/Tysha).

I think there is a more important difference between Rhaegar and Jaehaerys: the polygamy. Any marriage to Lyanna would violate Rhaegar's wedding vows to Elia and require Aerys to take on the Faith for a son he did not like very much. So it would not necessarily be a matter of setting Lyanna aside, it would just be that the marriage was invalid and Lyanna was a royal mistress, like Melissa Blackwood.

[sj4iy]

I think there is a more important difference between Rhaegar and Jaehaerys: the polygamy. Any marriage to Lyanna would violate Rhaegar's wedding vows to Elia and require Aerys to take on the Faith for a son he did not like very much. So it would not necessarily be a matter of setting Lyanna aside, it would just be that the marriage was invalid and Lyanna was a royal mistress, like Melissa Blackwood.

Except that it WASN'T invalid because polygamy wasn't against the law.

And no, I'm not about to start this argument all over again. Until you can show me actual proof that polygamy was against the law (and not anecdotes like "people didn't do it"), then there's really no debate about it. Polygamy may be frowned upon, but so is incest, and no one is invalidating THOSE marriages. The only person who had the power to set aside the marriage was Aerys- and he never did.

[The Twinslayer]

It's much harder to "put aside" the wife and son of a popular crown prince. Why didn't Robert put aside Cersei? Because it would be political suicide. Same for Aerys.

Jaime, Cersei, Renly and Loras all thought Robert could set Cersei aside. And what would Rickard do? Go to war over this. I don't think that is very likely.

[Ygrain]

Well, you asked. And those are two male characters who display cold, hard exteriors. There's not much to go on, if you want evidence of a relationship between either of those characters and Lyanna. But there's not much evidence to support her relationship with Rhaegar, either.

I suppose the wall of ice could also represent someone we don't know much about, at this point. Lord Rickard Stark, perhaps. It could be that the vision depicts a parent-child relationship, rather than any sort of romantic involvement. I hadn't considered that, but there is something to be said for the possibility I suppose.

Ah. I see. Kinda something like me trying to reassemble a clock - knowing the pieces fit together somehow but having no idea how and which ones are more important than others.

[sj4iy]

Ah. I see. Kinda something like me trying to reassemble a clock - knowing the pieces fit together somehow but having no idea how and which ones are more important than others.

I think it's more like having the clock pieces, knowing how they fit together but trying to make a different design because you don't like the original one.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think there is a more important difference between Rhaegar and Jaehaerys: the polygamy. Any marriage to Lyanna would violate Rhaegar's wedding vows to Elia and require Aerys to take on the Faith for a son he did not like very much. So it would not necessarily be a matter of setting Lyanna aside, it would just be that the marriage was invalid and Lyanna was a royal mistress, like Melissa Blackwood.

Polygamy was not outlawed (at least, not that we know of), so while that makes it a difference in he situations, it doesn't mean that it can't be compared.

[The Twinslayer]

Polygamy was not outlawed (at least, not that we know of), so while that makes it a difference in he situations, it doesn't mean that it can't be compared.

I happen to think polygamy was illegal, but let's set that aside because many disagree. I think everyone agrees that reviving polygamy after 200 years would at least have been controversial. My point was just that there are two important differences between Jaehaerys and Rhaegar: (1) Jaehaerys married the king's daughter -- that is the only instance when a marriage could not be set aside. Compare that with marriages to commomers (Duncan the Small) or High Lords' daughters (Robert/Cersei) where the marriage can be set aside. And (2) polygamy involves, at a minimum, a breach of Rhaegar's wedding vows and an offence against the Faith (that is why Maegor could not find a Septin who was willing to perform a polygamous marriage). I think Rhaegar would have to know that his situation was not really comparable to Jaehaerys' situation.