Robbs strange understanding of honor

[fellow reader]

Robb Stark, the Young Wolf, the King in the North and the King of the Trident is regarded by many readers as a great guy who lost everything because he was too honorable and ruined his last chaces to win by doing the honorable thing, regardless of the fact that it would be to his own disadvantage. But was he?

-He refused to declare for Renly because he was the younger brother, but then he also rejected Stannis and accepted the title of the King in the North which left him without any big allies. Was his initial plan not to free his father and his sisters and not becoming a king?

-He decided to break the marriage pact with the Freys because he felt he needed to protect Jeyne Westerlings honor. He did not want to leave a "dishonored" girl behind, how honorable. But then why did he have sex with her and "sully her honor" in the firtst place?(Even after a following wedding, her reputation is still damaged in the eyes of the Westerosi society because she had sex before being married.) Yes, the poor young king grieved for his brothers, but why did he have to have sex with a girl in the castle he just conquered from her family and "dishonor" her according to the social norms he is well aware of? This is not exactly an honorable way to grieve. People manage to grieve without being consoled with sex.

-He refused to exchange Jaime for his sisters because he thought that his bannermen would not like to trade the Kingslayer, a valuable hostage who was a top fighter, for two girls who happened to be his sisters(they thought Arya was also in Kings Landing). Yes, he made the exchange a part of his demands for a peace agreement, but only if the Lannisters also accept his other demand which seemed to have become the most important point for him: the acceptance of his independent rule over two regions of the seven kingdoms and his new titles as King in the North and King of the Trident. The fact that he had Jaime did not stop the Lannisters from fighting against him, it just gave them a reason to keep Sansa alive. So why was it for Robb whom most of his followers adored so impossible to trade Jaime for his sisters? He gave as a reason that his bannermen would argue that Jaime could fight and lead armies, but other subordinates of Tywin did that too. Yes, Jaime was an excellent fighter, but he was just one fighter. Robbs inability to control his sexual desire cost his side thousands of fighters and the not that unimportant passage through the Twins, but that was supposed to be okay for his bannermen, but he thought it would not at all be okay for them if he exchanged one Lannister for two Starks. Again, did he not initially go to war to free his family members?

I think I should add: His bannermen never said that he should not exchange two girls for the Kingslayer, that was just what Robb thought they might think. What Catelyn did was not an arranged hostage exchange, it was freeing a prisoner in the hope that his relatives would send her daughters back, but she made no official agreement with them. So his bannermens reaction to Catelyns hope against all odds is no indication of what they would think about an exchange. Robb never even suggested it.

So, Robb went to war to free his family members, his father Ned and his sisters Sansa and Arya, but it seems that after Neds death and his coronation, keeping his crown and the independent reign over the North and the Riverlands have become more important to him than getting his sisters back and out of the clutches of their enemies.

What is your opinion?

[Dorian Martell]

He was 16 when he became King. Teenagers make poor decisions that are not logical or consistent. That's all really

[Robb_Warged]

he died so that the story might live

he made glaring mistakes that had damning consequences. If only he could have been infallible like the other characters in this story. If only he had the plot armor of his siblings

[fellow reader]

He was 16 when he became King. Teenagers make poor decisions that are not logical or consistent. That's all really

Being a king became more importsnt to him than the safety of his own sisters, despite the fact that the initial reason he went to war was to get his family members back and not becoming king. Being a youth would explain a lack of experience with politics and strategy in a real war, but the decision not to exchange his sisters for Jaime while throwing the support of the Freys away for sex was not the decision of an unexperienced youth, it was being a lousy brother.

[Dorian Martell]

Being a king became more importsnt to him than the safety of his own sisters, despite the fact that the initial reason he went to war was to get his family members back and not becoming king. Being a youth would explain a lack of experience with politics and strategy in a real war, but the decision not to exchange his sisters for Jaime while throwing the support of the Freys away for sex was not the decision of an unexperienced youth, it was being a lousy brother.

He was a teenager, a ruler, a general and a husband. Mistakes happen

[fellow reader]

He was a teenager, a ruler, a general and a husband. Mistakes happen

He could not leave the girl he dishonored behind and sacrificed the support of the Freys who gave him thousands of fighters and passage through the Twins in order to safe as much as possible of her (and his!) honor, but he could leave his sisters in the clutches of the enemy because he thought that his bannermen might(we never read that they actually are against such an exchange) have something against giving one good fighter back to the enemy in order to get his sisters back.

So Robb could heavily sabotage his own cause in favor of his own sexual disire, but he could not exchange one Lannister for his two sisiters, because he was worried about what his followers who adored him(well, most of them, Rickard was unhappy and no one knew about Roose) might perhaps think of him. He never even made the suggestion and tried to find out if they really were against it.

[James Arryn]

1) I don't see how the first one involves honour. The Iron Throne isn't a natural state, it's a construct. It only becomes an issue of honour if/when you swear fealty. Until then you are not obliged to follow someone else's rulebook.

2) Without even accounting for the emotional trauma of WF/Ned, he was pretty seriously wounded at the time, no? Physical trauma over time releases chemicals that register somewhat like being stoned/drunk, and that's without w/e poppy or similar he was getting. Diminished capacity.

3) If he doesn't settle his political situation, he can't ensure his sisters' safety wherever they are. Additionally, he is by definition asking many fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, wives and children to put the political/moral cause ahead of the risk to loved ones by following him to war. It would be a selfish reversal to expect that of them but not himself.

Additionally, possessing Jaime keeps an excellent fighter off the field AND ensures his sisters' safety because if his sisters are killed, Jaime woukd follow.

His real...mistake...was putting Jeyne's honour above his own. As a man, that's commendable, but as a King, it's very problematic.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

-He refused to declare for Renly because he was the younger brother, but then he also rejected Stannis and accepted the title of the King in the North which left him without any big allies. Was his initial plan not to free his father and his sisters and not becoming a king?

As far as Robb knew Joffrey was the legitimate heir. What was he going to do really? His bannermen pretty much stood up as a group and said "fuck the Baratheons, we want YOU". Hard to argue with that.

Yes, the poor young king grieved for his brothers, but why did he have to have sex with a girl in the castle he just conquered from her family and "dishonor" her according to the social norms he is well aware of? This is not exactly an honorable way to grieve. People manage to grieve without being consoled with sex.

Depends on if you are a 16 year old horny boy or not. I dimly remember doing things when I was 16 due to hormone overload that today I find rather "daring".

Yes, Jaime was an excellent fighter, but he was just one fighter.

And how many fighters would he get in return? It's sometimes tough being the King.

He was a teenager, a ruler, a general and a husband. Mistakes happen

Exactly.

[RainGhost]

The OP makes some good points. Robb rejected Renly as king because he was the younger brother. However, he couldn't exactly support Stannis because firstly he hadn't declared yet, secondly he didn't have many men - he didn't want to commit his men to the losing side (by declaring independence they didn't choose any side). Honour didn't come into that - it was all politics.

Sleeping with Jeyne was certainly not an honourable thing to do. However, he was a teenager and teenagers can't always control their emotions. Breaking the marriage pact with the Freys was certainly not honourable either but he chose Jeyne's honour over his own. Sometimes whatever you do is dishonourable.

Robb's refusal to exchange Jaime for Sansa doesn't really have anything to do with honour. That's an issue of feudal politics - he could have exchanged Jaime for Ned, which was the main original war aim but after his men had fought, died and lost sons for him, it would have been an incredibly selfish thing to do to exchange Jaime for a girl. It would have turned his bannermen against him (look what happened when Catelyn released Jaime).

Was it hypocritical to lose the Freys for Jeyne but not risk losing his other bannermen for Sansa? Yes but the two situations are not the same as I've highlighted above. No one other than the Freys had a problem with Robb marrying Jeyne but they would all have had a problem with a Jaime-Sansa exchange. It's also worth pointing out that Robb does later think he should have exchanged Sansa for Jaime - he was young, learning and not entirely consistent. Basically, he was an honourable guy but he slipped up with Jeyne.

[John Doe]

For the most part I agree with the OP, that Robb went to war for family is a common misconception.

[James Arryn]

I agree with the OP, that Robb went to war for family is a common misconception.

I do think he went to war for Ned/Sansa/Arya, but it changed when Ned died and was completely transformed when he was crowned.

[John Doe]

I do think he went to war for Ned/Sansa/Arya, but it changed when Ned died and was completely transformed when he was crowned.

Yeah, he started the war for family (and vengeance), but this goal soon changed.

[James Arryn]

Yeah, he started the war for family (and vengeance), but this goal soon changed.

Yeah, power being a tiger by the tail and all that.

[Frey Pie]

So Robb's to blame for Stannis not crowning himself sooner?

[James Arryn]

So Robb's to blame for Stannis not crowning himself sooner?

Robb doesn't know about twincest, so it's not even an issue, really.

[Frey Pie]

Robb doesn't know about twincest, so it's not even an issue, really.[/quote

Well Joffrey and any king with Lannister tendency are not considered fit to rule anymore over the north or riverlands. They need an alternative. Renly has no right and isn't considered worthy and Stannis has yet to declare so they decide to rule themselves. So ya I agree the twincest isn't a big thing for Robb but the succession is

[James Arryn]

Well Joffrey and any king with Lannister tendency are not considered fit to rule anymore over the north or riverlands. They need an alternative. Renly has no right and isn't considered worthy and Stannis has yet to declare so they decide to rule themselves. So ya I agree the twincest isn't a big thing for Robb but the succession is

Once you decide Joff isn't your King because reasons, you are abandoning the premise that 'right' is determinant in favour of the idea of preference.

[Sullen]

-He refused to declare for Renly because he was the younger brother, but then he also rejected Stannis and accepted the title of the King in the North which left him without any big allies. Was his initial plan not to free his father and his sisters and not becoming a king?

Declaring for Stannis would have been as dishonourable as declaring for Renly, the honourable thing to do would have been declaring for Tommen.

Also, while I'm not a fan of Robb, he didn't crown himself, his lords did. He's still an idiot for agreeing to it though.

[juanml82]

1) A King who does not defend his people is no king at all. Since King Joffrey was attacking his people, honor doesn't come into play on this. Pragmatic reasons are another matter, though. They needed a war goal but he could have aimed to something easier/less likely to make enemies of everyone else while deferring the matter of the person sitting in the Iron Throne.

2) Absolutely. Robb was both weak (not attacking the Freys deserting him) and dishonorable on this one. Jeyne's honor is her own business, and if she cared so much for it, then she should have kept her legs closed.

3) It was dishonourable. I wonder what a bannermen can expect of a King who doesn't defend even his own family. Even if he felt Jaime was more valuable than his sisters (and I'd argue that, since Sansa opens the possibility of alliances and, post-fall of Winterfell, securing the succession line), he didn't even attempt a rescue. He simply abandoned them to their fate. Also, keeping Jaime tossed in cell covered in his own shit isn't exactly the treatment highborn hostages are expected to receive. he can't give him freedom of the castle or he'll escape, but he can't keep him like a common criminal.

[fellow reader]

1) I don't see how the first one involves honour. The Iron Throne isn't a natural state, it's a construct. It only becomes an issue of honour if/when you swear fealty. Until then you are not obliged to follow someone else's rulebook.

Everyone in the seven kingdoms owes fealty to the Iron Throne since their birth.

As far as Robb knew Joffrey was the legitimate heir. What was he going to do really? His bannermen pretty much stood up as a group and said "fuck the Baratheons, we want YOU". Hard to argue with that.

Several Vale lords thought that the Lannisters were responsible for Jon Arryns death and some wanted to join Robbs fight, but Lysa said no and it was no. More below the next quote.

Robb rejected Renly as king because he was the younger brother. However, he couldn't exactly support Stannis because firstly he hadn't declared yet, secondly he didn't have many men - he didn't want to commit his men to the losing side (by declaring independence they didn't choose any side). Honour didn't come into that - it was all politics.

Robb accepted the crown and wanted to keep it. That made it impossible to ally with Stannis or Renly. Catelyn tried to make an alliance on Robbs behalf, be she made it clear that Robb had become a King and would remain one. So no alliance without giving up Robbs new status. Stannis said he would give Ned justice and send her daughters back(that was what Robb initially wanted), Renly even suggested to let Robb keep the crown and title if he accepted Renly above him, but that was not what Robb wanted anymore at that point. Robb ruined his chances for an alliance with his title as king.

2) Without even accounting for the emotional trauma of WF/Ned, he was pretty seriously wounded at the time, no? Physical trauma over time releases chemicals that register somewhat like being stoned/drunk, and that's without w/e poppy or similar he was getting. Diminished capacity.

Again, people manage to heal and grieve without having sex. And Robb certainly new that it is dishonorable to sleep with Jeyne, Frey-betrothal ot not.

Sleeping with Jeyne was certainly not an honourable thing to do. However, he was a teenager and teenagers can't always control their emotions. Breaking the marriage pact with the Freys was certainly not honourable either but he chose Jeyne's honour over his own. Sometimes whatever you do is dishonourable.

If he had not slept with Jeyne, he would not have to make the choice between loosing the Freys and leaving a "dishonored" girl behind. He could have done the honorable thing and decide not to "dishonor" her.

3) If he doesn't settle his political situation, he can't ensure his sisters' safety wherever they are. Additionally, he is by definition asking many fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, wives and children to put the political/moral cause ahead of the risk to loved ones by following him to war. It would be a selfish reversal to expect that of them but not himself.

Additionally, possessing Jaime keeps an excellent fighter off the field AND ensures his sisters' safety because if his sisters are killed, Jaime woukd follow.

He called his banners in order to free his father and his sisiters and they came. Why would they suddenly refuse a hostage exchange?

It was okay for him throw away the support of thousands of Frey soldiers which made it harder for everyone on his side to fight the war because he had to have sex with Jeyne, that was much much more damaging for his cause than exchanging Jaime for his sisters. Or do you want to tell me that Jaime can do more on the battle field than THOUSANDS of Frey soldiers. Yes, Jaime was an excellent fighter, proven when he made his way towards Robb in the Whispering Wood, but it seems I have missed the part in the books where he killed not several, but thousands of adversaries.

I do not understand your last arguement. If he exchanged Jaime for his sisters on some neutral ground, he would get his sisters back the moment he lets Jaime free, so his sisters would no longer be in the hands of the Lannisters.

And back to the arguement that he had to "settle to politicasl situation" first: not making an alliance and loosing thousands of fighters thanks to having sex did not help his sisters or his cause, it made it even worse. Exchanging Jaime for his sisters would not have damaged his position that much if at all. The Lannisters fought against him although he had Jaime. He was a reason to keep Sansa alive, but if he had exchanged them, then she would be safer than in the hands of the enemy.

His bannermen never say that he should not exchange two girls for the Kingslayer, that was just what Robb thought they might think. What Catelyn did was not an arranged hostage exchange, it was freeing a prisoner in the hope that his relatives would send her daughters back, but she made no official agreement with them. So their reaction to Catelyns hope against all odd is no indication of what they would think about an exchange. Robb never even suggested it.

Robb's refusal to exchange Jaime for Sansa doesn't really have anything to do with honour. That's an issue of feudal politics - he could have exchanged Jaime for Ned, which was the main original war aim but after his men had fought, died and lost sons for him, it would have been an incredibly selfish thing to do to exchange Jaime for a girl. It would have turned his bannermen against him (look what happened when Catelyn released Jaime).

Was it hypocritical to lose the Freys for Jeyne but not risk losing his other bannermen for Sansa? Yes but the two situations are not the same as I've highlighted above. No one other than the Freys had a problem with Robb marrying Jeyne but they would all have had a problem with a Jaime-Sansa exchange. It's also worth pointing out that Robb does later think he should have exchanged Sansa for Jaime - he was young, learning and not entirely consistent. Basically, he was an honourable guy but he slipped up with Jeyne.

Catelyn did not arrange an official hostage exchange. She sent Jaime away without making an agreement with the other side. It was explicitly said that it can be seen as an escape and then the Lannisters would not be obligated to send the girls back. And she sent him with only one guard and another freed prisoner through a war zone. It was actually much more likely that they would die on the way than reach Kings Landing.

And again: He called his banners in order to free his father and his sisiters and they came. They knew they were going to fight and probably die. Why would they suddenly refuse a hostage exchange(a real one with enough guards who make sure that he reaches the destination without getting killed or easily freed and who could bring the girls safely back. Sending only two peaple, one of them a Lannister man, had nearly no chances of success. Yes, Jaime and Brienne made it to Kings Landing, but that was very unlikely.)? We never read that they would be against such an official exchange, one Lannister for two Starks, we get just Robbs worries about what his bannermen might perhaps think of him.

And do you want to tell me that his bannermen were cool about the fact the Robb lost thousands of soldiers for sex, but would have deserted him if he exchanged two Stark girls for one Lannister? And now I repeat myself: Do you want to tell me that Jaime can do more on the battle field than THOUSANDS of Frey soldiers. Yes, Jaime was an excellent fighter, proven when he made his way towards Robb in the Whispering Wood, but it seems I have missed the part in the books where he killed not several, but thousands of adversaries.