Doran Martell: George ridiculing Sun Tzu?

[Mithras]

I think the title is clear. It is obvious that Doran above else is the player who plays the game according to The Art of War.

Is George making fun of the revered Chinese general and strategist Sun Tzu by depicting Doran as the plotter of doomed schemes, always waits and acts late?

Or is Doran's game much more involved and sinister than it appears?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I actually wanted to write the opposite... ¬¬ Sun Tzu also mentions that waiting too much to act will lead you to fail, btw.

tbh, Doran's story is not yet even finished.

ETA: https://31.media.tumblr.com/b380382cdc438102259144457fdf69d5/tumblr_ne7nzpTOCs1u0202go1_500.gif

[dread pirate davos]

This is probably irrelevant but I always thought of Doran as a hamlet type in regards to his inaction.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I think the key is that Doran is still in the game while certain other people are not. His game is not over.

Hamlet was indecisive. Doran knows what he wants to do, but the plans he has laid have taken a very long time to bear fruit, if they bear fruit at all. I wouldn't call him Hamlet.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Doran only read half of the Art of War, I suspect.

And he runs his secret operations by focusing entirely on 'Secret' and forgetting that the 'Operation' part is at least as important.

[midi]

Sun Tzu did not believe in waiting around while things are happening. He believed in particular responses to enemy actions (enemy attacks, you withdraw until you have the advantage sort of thing).

However of course because Sun Tzu said that war should never be resorted to if you can achieve your goals otherwise one might make a case for Doran having some Sun Tzu in him but... not really, this was more of the pacifist in Sun Tzu talking, seeing as his actual strategies were - you know - The Art of War.

Anyways, Sun Tzu would be da boss in Westeros.

Also I don't think George would make fun of Sun Tzu. He seems like the kind of guy that would value him highly.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Doran only read half of the Art of War, I suspect.

And he runs his secret operations by focusing entirely on 'Secret' and forgetting that the 'Operation' part is at least as important.

:agree:

[Mithras]

I think if Sun Tzu was the prince of Dorne, he would definitely not join the Wot5K just like Doran did.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think if Sun Tzu was the prince of Dorne, he would definitely not join the Wot5K just like Doran did.

That part of his plan was perfect. What went wrong was waiting too many years for Viserys marrying Arianne.

[Lord Sapna]

Ah Sun Tzu's art of war.

Step 1. Secretly arrange a marridge

Step 2. Should step 1 fail repeat step 1 till it works and/or your out of targaryens.

Nah don't remember that bit

[John Doe]

Ah Sun Tzu's art of war.

Step 1. Secretly arrange a marridge

Step 2. Should step 1 fail repeat step 1 till it works and/or your out of targaryens.

Nah don't remember that bit

:D

[Lord Lannister]

I think the key is that Doran is still in the game while certain other people are not. His game is not over.

Hamlet was indecisive. Doran knows what he wants to do, but the plans he has laid have taken a very long time to bear fruit, if they bear fruit at all. I wouldn't call him Hamlet.

Yeah, Doran strikes me as a poker player. He may be losing his ante now and again, but he's waiting for that perfect hand to go all in. He's still in the game and hasn't lost yet. Which is more than most kings can say. Robb lost because Walder Frey and Roose Bolton were looking over his shoulder and telling Tywin how to bet. Stannis lost is full house to Tywin's four of a kind and has been fudding around with a short stack since. Tyrion kicked over the table and shot Tywin and now Cersei's losing the big stack he had built up. Dany, who knows if she'll even sit down at the table, she seems content to play a different game over in Slaver's Bay. So Doran's been hedging his bets and may go all in soon with Aegon's coming. Of course that has bluff written all over it.

[Kienn]

Are you guys characters in the story or something?

If you've read the books how are you under the impression Doran hasn't done anything?

[dread pirate davos]

Are you guys characters in the story or something?

If you've read the books how are you under the impression Doran hasn't done anything?

He didn't do such a good job on the revenge front, because he did nothing two of them died unrelated deaths and the third took down his brother with him. Other than that he made a marriage pact, Sat around for ten years then sent his son to his death. He may have done more, but that's all I remember.

[midi]

I think if Sun Tzu was the prince of Dorne, he would definitely not join the Wot5K just like Doran did.

He wouldn't have declared for any of the kings, but once Stannis and the Tyrells marched to King's Landing he would've attacked the Stormlands and The Reach from the south to bolster his position. Well much like what one of the Sand Snakes suggested, only much earlier when the resistance was the weakest, in preparation for Dany/Aegon's coming.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He wouldn't have declared for any of the kings, but once Stannis and the Tyrells marched to King's Landing he would've attacked the Stormlands and The Reach from the south to bolster his position.

I don't think he has the resources to attack either of them, which is exactly what AoW says: do not attack unless is certain to win. What he could have done is lure them into Dorne, where desert and sun can play on their side.

But, what would be the purpose? Telling "yeah, I'm warring!"?. Doran is playing a different game with different players. He wants a Targaryen back on the throne with a Martell spouse.

[midi]

I don't think he has the resources to attack either of them, which is exactly what AoW says: do not attack unless is certain to win. What he could have done is lure them into Dorne, where desert and sun can play on their side.

But, what would be the purpose? Telling "yeah, I'm warring!"?. Doran is playing a different game with different players. He wants a Targaryen back on the throne with a Martell spouse.

To prepare for the war that wins Dorne the crown with one of the Targs. Once the main armies of The Stormlands and The Reach were gone it would've been trivial to siege many castles and take lots of land in both of those regions, much like Balon did in The North.

[Lord Sapna]

Are you guys characters in the story or something?

If you've read the books how are you under the impression Doran hasn't done anything?

The fact is I've always looked at doran and the sand snakes as a bit of a joke because their story is over before it starts. The first time we meet doran Obara is on about how she should kill Tywin. She doesn't know yet but we know that he's already dead. The revenge arc doesn't work once all the people they want revenge on are dead.

[Kienn]

The fact is I've always looked at doran and the sand snakes as a bit of a joke because their story is over before it starts. The first time we meet doran Obara is on about how she should kill Tywin. She doesn't know yet but we know that he's already dead. The revenge arc doesn't work once all the people they want revenge on are dead.

It's not just about revenge, it's about gaining power - as everyone tries to.

[Griffin's Roost]

I don't think we know the extent of Dorans plan but if it isn't something amazing I would be completely shocked.

supposedly Doran is a genious (confirmed by Tywin, who doesn't seem the type to give compliments) and he is working with Oberyn who is also very smart and has crazy connections.

all this and they have been planning for years, like roughly 17 years. if this plan isn't insane than GRRM dropped the ball and so far he has never

In GRRM we trust