These are the Undisputed Reasons why Jaime is less than scum

[House Obama]

· Jaime killed Aerys (yes, I know why), then confronted by Ned he showed no contrition for breaking his oath.

· He is having an incestuous relationship with his sister

· Jaime had sex on Roberts bed with Cersei , while the king was asleep/past out from drinking too much wine. Jaime also said that he would have killed Robert if he awoke during it.

· Cersei explicitly state (and I am sure she right) that Jaime wouldve killed Robert if he saw his sister slap, but Jaime is supposed to put his king above everything else.

· Jaime pushed Bran from the window, intentionally trying to kill him. Also, many readers do not know this, but Ned gave Roberts and his entourage his protection (guest rights), which Jaime violated.

· The Kingslayer admitted that he would have killed Arya (also a child) if he found her first when her direwolf bit Joffrey. He then says because Cersei told him too, but dude thats a young girl!

· Hes a pathological breaker of oaths He fathered Cerseis children: Joffrey, Tommon, and Myrcella Baratheon. He allowed his king to think they were his, wtf.

· He broke another oath, as the Black Fish said, I dont see my nieces daughter with you. I suppose you are coming to your cell. (I paraphrase Black Fishs quote, but it is in A Feast for Crows") Jaime was supposed to bring Sansa and Arya back with him, and if he did not he was supposed to return to his cell at Riverrun.

· Jaime supported Joffrey even when he knew that he was not the lawful king.

Smh, anybody who supports Jaime need to question themself because he is a terrible person. Jaime Lannister is in the same category as Ramsey, Joffrey (his son), Gregor Clegane, and Walder Frey. And he deserves nothing more than to die and be sent to the deepest of the Seven Hells with his bastard son :cool4: .

Add more reasons why Jaime is scum in the thread, and supporters of Jaime, I am willing to understand your stance on him.

[Mullendores monkey]

The feeling I had the first time I read Storm and saw the JAIME headline after the prologue. Since then I've only felt that way when the giants won 2 superbowls and when I got my first union paycheck .....I'll be having a child in 3 months, I hear that's a pretty great feeling

[Poppa Bolton]

Lol love these posts. Jaime is the hero Westeros deserves.

[Lord Ross]

And yet, he went back for Brienne.

This is why he's an interesting character.

[igrewupinKL]

I don't want to blame Cersei for everything, but Jaime was heavily influenced and manipulated by her for many, many years. I think most of his 'bad' deeds stems from her influence and the aftermath of being called Kingslayer.

Jaime has been constantly haunted by killing Aerys, and why should he feel bad about it? The fact is that Aerys was a horrible King, Jaime broke his oath, but i don't think he is a bad person for killing that King who was going to burn his own people in their beds. And that is the whole dilemma, should you keep your Oath even when the King commands something monstrous?

Let me pose this question...Would Jaime have hit/abused Sansa if Joffrey ordered it? No i don't think he would and thats what makes him different.

Why isn't Tywin mocked for a seemingly more disgusting deed (ordering the deaths of Elia and her children) all the time? Its because he was smart enough not to do it himself. Are you saying Jaime deserves 'hell' and Tywin doesn't?

Comparing Jaime to Ramsay is ridiculous...Ramsay makes me sick.

[The Wolves]

Jaime is a monster who helped bring about TWot5ks just because he jumped in a bear pit to save Brienne doesn't mean it makes up for him trying to kill a child and crippling him for life resulting in said child's inability to have children or be able to walk again.

Jaime is evil he helped start a war and he regarets nothing or doesn't acknowledge how he and Cersei just brought about death and destruction to millions who have to face winter and on top of that a possible invasion with ice zombies things and they are weakened because of the war.

He's a disgusting sorry excuse for a person just because he throws out witty lines and burns Cersei's letter doesn't make up for the irreversable massive damage he have done. Anyways it's all to late, him burning Cersei's letter and cutting off ties with her means nothing now a succession war has already been fought because they planted the seeds(Joffery, Tommen, Myrcella) of war and destroyed the realm. Him being nice to that girl that got her teeth knocked out by the Mountain doesn't make up the fact that it was his father who set him loose because Jaime and Cersei's war that they bought about. He has no regrets about his part that he played in TWot5ks he's evil.

[chrisdaw]

Jaime deserves to die for attempting to kill a child. But westeros doesn't have the luxury of executing him, men who can lead and put shit to rights are drying up and he's about the best of them.

On the side, Loras is worse, murdered multiple men just because he was angry, Jaime's attempted murder was atleast to save someone from death.

[House Obama]

Jaime is a monster who helped bring about TWot5ks just because he jumped in a bear pit to save Brienne doesn't mean it makes up for him trying to kill a child and crippling him for life resulting in said child's inability to have children or be able to walk again.

Jaime is evil he helped start a war and he regarets nothing or doesn't acknowledge how he and Cersei just brought about death and destruction to millions who have to face winter and on top of that a possible invasion with ice zombies things and they are weakened because of the war.

He's a disgusting sorry excuse for a person just because he throws out witty lines and burns Cersei's letter doesn't make up for the irreversable massive damage he have done. Anyways it's all to late, him burning Cersei's letter and cutting off ties with her means nothing now a succession war has already been fought because they planted the seeds(Joffery, Tommen, Myrcella) of war and destroyed the realm. Him being nice to that girl that got her teeth knocked out by the Mountain doesn't make up the fact that it was his father who set him loose because Jaime and Cersei's war that they bought about. He has no regrets about his part that he played in TWot5ks he's evil.

Thank the gods for this comment! You sir are one of few people who see Jaime’s true color. He has done too many atrocities to earn respect from anyone. He crippled Bran under the Guest’s rights, like wtf. Readers flip when Walder violated it, but when Jaime did it, it was not a big deal. After listing all his crimes in this thread, I am shock at how many readers still support him.

Jaime deserves to die for attempting to kill a child. But westeros doesn't have the luxury of executing him, men who can lead and put shit to rights are drying up and he's about the best of them.

On the side, Loras is worse, murdered multiple men just because he was angry, Jaime's attempted murder was atleast to save someone from death.

Loras admitted to Jaime that he felt terrible for murdering his comrades (that doesn’t make it right though), but the reason Jaime is living is because he’s a Lannister. As I mentioned in the list, Jaime never showed contrition, but Loras did. Jaime should’ve been sent to the Wall like Ned advised Robert, but Robert wouldn’t allow it.

[The Blessed]

Jaime is a monster who helped bring about TWot5ks just because he jumped in a bear pit to save Brienne doesn't mean it makes up for him trying to kill a child and crippling him for life resulting in said child's inability to have children or be able to walk again.

Jaime is evil he helped start a war and he regarets nothing or doesn't acknowledge how he and Cersei just brought about death and destruction to millions who have to face winter and on top of that a possible invasion with ice zombies things and they are weakened because of the war.

He's a disgusting sorry excuse for a person just because he throws out witty lines and burns Cersei's letter doesn't make up for the irreversable massive damage he have done. Anyways it's all to late, him burning Cersei's letter and cutting off ties with her means nothing now a succession war has already been fought because they planted the seeds(Joffery, Tommen, Myrcella) of war and destroyed the realm. Him being nice to that girl that got her teeth knocked out by the Mountain doesn't make up the fact that it was his father who set him loose because Jaime and Cersei's war that they bought about. He has no regrets about his part that he played in TWot5ks he's evil.

If you:

-got caught having sex with your sister, the Queen.

-and you knew that the King is merciless when killing children (think how Robert wanted to kills Dany).

-and you know that this could lead the discovering that the King's children are not his

Wouldn't you be afraid that, once the King finds out, he would have you, your sister, your lover and your children eliminated?

Would you honestly not fear for everything that you lived for?

I believe that, when push comes to shove, most people would take the more "evil" route and risk killing a child in order to prevent the death of 3 children, as well as the death of your immediate family.

Jaime was not evil. He was only desperate.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I disagree. Those reasons can be disputed.

[House Obama]

If you:

-got caught having sex with your sister, the Queen.

-and you knew that the King is merciless when killing children (think how Robert wanted to kills Dany).

-and you know that this could lead the discovering that the King's children are not his

Wouldn't you be afraid that, once the King finds out, he would have you, your sister, your lover and your children eliminated?

Would you honestly not fear for everything that you lived for?

I believe that, when push comes to shove, most people would take the more "evil" route and risk killing a child in order to prevent the death of 3 children, as well as the death of your immediate family.

Jaime was not evil. He was only desperate.

Wrong!

Most people would not have an incestuous relationship with their sister, especially if they were a member of a king’s personal Royal Guards. Also, an honorable man would never give his sister his seed, with the risk of people finding out the children are his. Royal Guards are supposed to place the king’s life above everything else, Jaime did not. Everybody is not like Jaime; for example, I know that my life is not worth more than many of men’s death. Jaime does not share my belief, and due to this, the realm has bled dearly for it.

All Jaime’s problems have been self-inflicted, so please do not follow Jaime’s fans and put all the blame on Cersei.

I disagree. Those reasons can be disputed.

I’m sorry, but I do not think they can.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I’m sorry, but I do not think they can.

Of course they can. Because the problem with Jaime is what happens when people see other people/fictional characters as men or women and not people. Jaime is a person, a flawed person who is part of an abusive relationship. Men can also be part of those, you know? And women can also be the abusive part.

Many people often wonder why women don't simply step away from a dangerous relationship. It's because mostly of them simply can't. They have created a sense of dependence that is mostly instigated by the abuser, who has manipulated the abused into believing s/he can't live without them, or that the abused owns them something. It has nothing to do with being weak or but some are more susceptible than others. And many need years of therapy to set themselves free from their abusive partners.

In the same way the abused are very controlled by the abusers, even into making illegal or immoral things they wouldn't do on their account, or even things that it would hurt them. Or their children. It's because they have been broken into submission. Of course they are also guilty but their motivations are not rational or even logical: they even would say they did the things they did out of love. This is not stripping them from guilt, but it happens. Look at Lysa, for instance.

Jaime, despite his reputation as a warrior, is a softy. He has a docile personality, while Cersei doesn't. She is very very dominant. She can easily play him as a fiddle and she knows it. She knows the words that trigger obedience from Jaime, even if she does not do it consciously. People is very dismissive of Cersei being the puppet master because she is the woman, but again, women can be also the abusive part in a relationship. Of course, many would say Cersei claims to love Jaime, but many men who beat their wives/girlfriends also claim the same. I personally can't see Cersei different from those men, being the only difference that she does not physically abuse Jaime (although she has slapped him a few times, but she slaps everybody). She has psychologically maim him through the years.

Just as an example, she has denied him the right to call his children his own, because "it is too dangerous". She is making the decisions about how Jaime should approach his children. And, more importantly, did Cersei ever asked Jaime if he wanted to father those children in first place and being part in her own revenge against Robert? If you ask me, that is very cruel.

So, Jaime's actions should be pardoned? No, this is not making up excuses for him. But we are not dealing with a person who is in his full capacities to thinking rationally. Until Feast, when he has realised he was nothing but a pawn in Cersei's schemes and manipulations.

[Black Crow]

:agree:

[The Wolves]

If you:

-got caught having sex with your sister, the Queen.

-and you knew that the King is merciless when killing children (think how Robert wanted to kills Dany).

-and you know that this could lead the discovering that the King's children are not his

Wouldn't you be afraid that, once the King finds out, he would have you, your sister, your lover and your children eliminated?

Would you honestly not fear for everything that you lived for?

I believe that, when push comes to shove, most people would take the more "evil" route and risk killing a child in order to prevent the death of 3 children, as well as the death of your immediate family.

Jaime was not evil. He was only desperate.

Jaime and Cersei had no business having sex in Winterfell anyways it was a unfamiliar environment where anyone could have walked in on them. Why should Bran have to suffer because Jaime and Cersei were reckless and doesn't give two fucks about their kids' lives where they fuck in unsafe environments like Winterfell and they even had sex next to a passed out Robert they didn't care at all.

Jaime doesn't care about his children he didn't push Bran to protect them he did it for Cersei and Jaime would welcome a war he even joked about if Ned or Robert found out he would kill them calling it "the war for Cersei's cunt." Jaime is only desperate to fuck his sister and to please her that's the only reason he pushed a child out the window to please his sister/lover.

[Ser Raymun Fossoway]

I would agree with this in the first 3 books but after his hand was taken from him became human. Jamie has become my favorite character. so complex and is now going full circle from some mindless sex craved killer to an introspective leader. when Jamie lost his hand that was the one and only thing Cersei needed him for, he was the most dangerous sword in the seven kingdoms. And cast him aside like garbage once he was no longer strong. like most bullies cersei prays on the weak and now Jamie has some perspective. Jamie is trying to do the right things so im sure grrm will kill him off

[chrisdaw]

Loras admitted to Jaime that he felt terrible for murdering his comrades (that doesn’t make it right though), but the reason Jaime is living is because he’s a Lannister. As I mentioned in the list, Jaime never showed contrition, but Loras did. Jaime should’ve been sent to the Wall like Ned advised Robert, but Robert wouldn’t allow it.

Jaime has shown contrition for what he has done wrong, as he says to Cersei, and the self loathing is evident in his chapters. Killing Aerys is obviously not a wrong and no-one on the rebellion's side was going to kill anyone for murdering the mad king. Loras lives because he is a Tyrell, had positions been different and it was Loras who was cut down by a member of a lesser house for no good reason other than they were angry, they'd have hung or faced instant justice by the many armed men in attendance.

[mediterraneo]

I frankly believe that all of the affirmation have been and are quite disputable.

Starting with judging the morality of Jaime's love.
It is a very abusive behaviour, irrespective of both our time's morality and the feudal, chivalry times morality. From Tristano and Isotta to Lancelot and Geneve, every best knight of a king in any knigth-time chanson got in love with his liege's wife, and true love cannot be rejected, it gets to the heart of the loved one too, if it is true, in the mindset of the writers of those stories.
Jaime is too the product of a chivalrous society, and he really didn't do anything to his king that Lancelot didn't first to his.

Jaime has the bad luck to having born in Westeros, where moral challenges are a bit steeper, and he got in love with his sister. Bu he is in a consensual relationship with an adult. That's not a crime. It is a crime to beat your wife because you are the king. And we must admit that Jaime had instincts of respecting his duty of protecting women, even from their husbands, in the case of at least one of Aerys's rapes of his wife.
As all the Kingsguard, Jaime had an oath as a knight before being able to take his ones as a kingsguard. We don't knwo what exactly do the Kingsguard swear, but we do know that knightly oaths of service, in normal cases, do include a clause for the liege lord not to give to the serving knight tasks that would dishonor them. We saw that when Brienne took her oath of service with Catelyn. It is difficult to argue then that a king could ask any behaviour from his kingsguard that would ashame a knight. To make a totally unrelated example, I believe it is quite clear that no king could ask to the kingsguard to beat a girl in public for being a sister of an enemy. Or to kill her. Or to kill thousands of boys, girls, men and women, old and youngs, totally unrelated to any action taken by anybody against the King, and being at that moment under the King's protection.
Not to recognize this simple fact would mean, for a character inside of the narrative, to choose his position of privilege and respect inside a famous, rich institution that grants prestige to yourself and your House over your (sacred) oath and duties. It would mean to uphold your social privileges over your ethical behaviour. There is actually no way - for omniscent readers - to condemn Jaime for his behaviour stopping the king from burning the city. It was his duty as a knight and it was the right thing to do. Jaime protected the innocent, no matter what the personal cost. He did pay with a stain on his name, because of both the lack of omniscence of the in-world characters and Jaime's shyness on enlightening other people about his late king's miseries, protecting his name and memory in a way. In this light we could condemn Jaime for his behaviour with the king, though. For not stopping Aerys's rapes of his wife: voicing with his fellow kingsguards was not enough, it would have been his duty to up the stakes against them, if needed, to stop the king or die trying. No metter how much hipocrisy was going on into "the best kingsguard ever" about their role as knights. I'm with Tyrion when he said to Meryn Trant that it is their duty to protect the king from himself also.
Someone above exposed a point of view I share about the Bran businnes. I don't agree with the voices giving the faults just to Cersei, abusive relationship or not. Jaime wouldn't also: it is a trait of his character to take responsibility for his gestures, even when they are misunderstood. When Catelyn asks him why did he push Bran, he said: "because I wanted him to die". Jaime pushed Bran slowly, deliberately and after a moment of thinking. "I heard you when you said it the first time" he said. And he agreed, and pushed the boy. I really wish to myself and to any of my readers here to never ever find themselves in the position to choose between the life of an innocent and the life of three children. Of yours. And yourself and the love of your life, and all of the innocents that would end up dieing in a war between the Throne and the Westerlands. Pushing, you are responsible of a murder, not pushing you are indirectly allowing of a greater number of disgreaces, but not committing them yourself directly. A very small quantity of hipocrisy would allow you to sleep well by night. Jaime chooses, and chooses to bear the burden of direct responsibility instead of seeing his love and her children die, and his father fighting a civil war he is bound to lose against tthe rest of the continent. And there is people finding hipocrisy in "the things he does for love".
But omniscent readers shouldn't be happy with this reconstruction of what happened in that tower. People goes on saying that "everybody could have caught Jaime and Cersei". It is not true, they were hiding on the top of an abandoned tower, with no chance to be seen from anywhere into or outside of the castle. For what we know, with closed doors and loudy stairs to separate themselves from the outside space. How did Bran get there? "Just" climbing like no one climbs in his lands? There is not a parkour community in Westeros, and if it was just a coincidence... Bran was there because the three eyes crow pulled him to go there. To see what he saw. To put in motion what happened. It is quite relevant to understand who the three eyed crow is. Because if the three eyed crow was Bloodraven (I don't think so, but he could be) Jaime and Cersei would have been framed by a sorcerer they don't know anthing of to push the boy from a window to help him opening the boy's third eye, for the sorceror's own needs. If the Three Eyed Crow is a personification of the Morrigan, as Black Crow suggested sometimes, than Jaime and Cersei were being framed by a god of the destiny. And if the Three Eyed Crow is Bran himself, guiding his younger self from the future of the tree-net... what would have happened there? Jaime probably would cut the debate short, and tell that, for what he knew, he was taking a free decision there, and his decision was to push. But still.

Resuming: I am taking part in this numerous disputation of the "undisputed" reasons in the thread title. This alone demonstrates that those are not undisputed reasons.

In the OP there is a reference to Jaime being the worst person because he broke oaths. Apart of the arguments in the previous parts of my post in which I argue that Jaime was not strictly breaking oaths in most of the instances commonly cited to attack him, I argument that, first of all, it is very difficult to find a single adult character in Westeros that didn't break at least an important oath. Second, that Jaime's fellow kingsguard were quite worse human beings than himself, nothwistanding the social recognition that their moral compromises gathered them.

I conclude with the feeling of having shown that Jaime is far from being the worst person in Westeros. And he always had, even when he only related himself with people that caused him to despise and not consider large parts of general population and their perceptions of Jaime's action. Brienne was not an example of what Jaime was not. She was a mirror, someone that actually tried to be a good knight. Jaime always wanted to be a white knight, before he knew that the white knights pardoned rape if it was a royal one.

But this is my personal conclusion, and I understand that others will see things differently. Disputing my claims.

[igrewupinKL]

Jaime did nothing to bring about the Wot5k!

LF pretty much set everything in motion because he figured out the lie of Robert's children. If Jaime didn't push Bran out of that tower, the letter to Catelyn still would have been sent because Jon Arryn still died. Also the dagger sent against Bran in aGOT was all set up by LF and Joffrey.

Pushing Bran out of the tower was unforgiveable, but as i mentioned and JonCon's Red Beard has covered, Jaime was being heavily abused and influenced by Cersei. Not to mention after killing Aerys, Jaime just became the man everyone expected of 'the kingslayer'. Brienne made him realise he is not that person.

Also, by your standards Theon is the worst person in Westeros

- He was going to kill Osha

- He ACTUALLY killed two farmers boys who were innocent

- Betrayed a peace between the Greyjoys and Starks

- He let the Ironborn at Moat Cailin surrender and did nothing when he knew they would be flayed alive

- he lied about fArya and let her get abused

- oh and lets not forget he had sexual intentions towards his sister

[Jehane]

Someone had to kill Aerys, right? Should Jaime have waited until honorable Ned Stark walked into the throne room to do it himself, risking that Aerys blows up the whole city? He didn't kill Aerys because he was evil; he did it to save the people of King's Landing and the city itself. He just never told anybody about it for whatever reason. Yes, he broke his oath but he had a very good reason to do so. There's no excuse for pushing Bran from the window, though I have to agree with JonCon's Red Beard that Cersei manipulates and abuses her brother which he just doesn't realise until he returns to King's Landing with his hand cut off and Cersei casts him aside.

As for his oath to Cat: How could he bring back the girls if their mother was dead? He doesn't even know where Arya is and has set Brienne to the task of finding her. Seems to me like he's still trying to keep that oath. You make him sound as if he broke every oath he ever swore. I can't remember if this is in the books, but on the show he states that there are so many oaths that contradict each other that at one point you don't know which one to keep without breaking another. You rant about Jaime breaking his oath to Aerys yet when he keeps the same oath to Joffrey, it's no good either. He supports Joffrey because he intends to keep his oath this time. The reasons for doing so might be wrong since Joffrey's not the rightful king but what would happen if Jaime stepped down from the Kingsguard, saying "Nah, I won't serve that bastard"? He'd probably be given another nice nickname like Oathbreaker. Also, think about how Tywin and Cersei would react to such an action. He's too caught up in and heavily influenced by his family; even if he wanted to break his oath, he couldn't do so without getting into a lot of trouble.

Putting Jaime in the same category as Ramsay, The Mountain and Walder Frey is just over the top. Ramsay is a psychopath who loves nothing more than torturing other people; he's evil to the core while Jaime is being haunted by some of his deeds, like killing Aerys, and he's capable of reflecting on himself. Ramsay isn't. The Mountain isn't. And Walder Frey is a vengeful bastard who would do just about anything to get his House a better standing in Westeros. He's also not capable of reflecting upon himself or his actions. But, oh, I forgot, he's misunderstood, right?

As for the war: The responsibility for starting that war lies elsewhere. Remember that scene in which Arya eavesdrops on two men in the dungeons of the Red Keep? One of them states "If one Hand can die, why not another?" This man must have known that killing Ned would set a war in motion. Oh, and let's not forget that Cat captured Tyrion, thus contributing to the war - of course the Lannisters will try to get Tyrion back. The Starks would have done the same if it had been one of them. Hell, they're doing the same after Ned has been executed. But you lay the blame on Jaime? Seriously?

The main reason why he's my favourite character is that he's a very complex character once you get inside his head via the POVs. He's not a one-dimensional character like Ramsay or the Mountain because he knows he's done awful things and he's trying to redeem himself. He probably won't be able to do that and some of his deeds can neither be forgiven nor undone (like pushing Bran from the window). But it's interesting to see how he changes and starts to break free. For me as a reader, that's far more interesting than having a good guy like Ned Stark or Jon Snow win the day because with These guys, you just know they're good to the bone. I'm not interested in that. I like flawed characters.

[House Obama]

Tell me. Why is everyone ignoring all the other crimes Jaime's committed, but focusing on the killing of Aerys? I cannot help but to think that people are giving him a pass for being in love with his sister. Do not forget that Jaime took an oath in the light of he seven gods.

All religions forbid incest, but Jaime took an oath to be a knight and join the king's personal guard, even though he knew full well that he wanted to continue his relation with Cersei.

Also, please do not try to convince me that Jaime should have our sympathy because he shouldn't.

Jaime tried to kill Arya and Bran. Just because someone is crazy in love, that do not justify heinous acts. A person can be a killer for 40 years, then realize his crimes and says I won't kill anymore, but that doesn't mean they should be forgiven of their crimes. I love reading Jaime's chapters, but I know he a terrible person.