These are the Undisputed Reasons why Jaime is less than scum

[Alternis Dim]

· Jaime killed Aerys (yes, I know why), then confronted by Ned he showed no contrition for breaking his oath.

· He is having an incestuous relationship with his sister

· Jaime had sex on Roberts bed with Cersei , while the king was asleep/past out from drinking too much wine. Jaime also said that he would have killed Robert if he awoke during it.

· Cersei explicitly state (and I am sure she right) that Jaime wouldve killed Robert if he saw his sister slap, but Jaime is supposed to put his king above everything else.

· Jaime pushed Bran from the window, intentionally trying to kill him. Also, many readers do not know this, but Ned gave Roberts and his entourage his protection (guest rights), which Jaime violated.

· The Kingslayer admitted that he would have killed Arya (also a child) if he found her first when her direwolf bit Joffrey. He then says because Cersei told him too, but dude thats a young girl!

· Hes a pathological breaker of oaths He fathered Cerseis children: Joffrey, Tommon, and Myrcella Baratheon. He allowed his king to think they were his, wtf.

· He broke another oath, as the Black Fish said, I dont see my nieces daughter with you. I suppose you are coming to your cell. (I paraphrase Black Fishs quote, but it is in A Feast for Crows") Jaime was supposed to bring Sansa and Arya back with him, and if he did not he was supposed to return to his cell at Riverrun.

· Jaime supported Joffrey even when he knew that he was not the lawful king.

Smh, anybody who supports Jaime need to question themself because he is a terrible person. Jaime Lannister is in the same category as Ramsey, Joffrey (his son), Gregor Clegane, and Walder Frey. And he deserves nothing more than to die and be sent to the deepest of the Seven Hells with his bastard son :cool4: .

Add more reasons why Jaime is scum in the thread, and supporters of Jaime, I am willing to understand your stance on him.

I'll add another one: he didn't tell anyone about the wildfire caches hidden beneath King's Landing.

The jars of wildifre were still hidden beneath King's Landing; since it's an extremely volatile substance, it's only by luck that someone didn't accidentally ignite them

[The Wolves]

I thought it was obvious we were talking about Tommen and Myrcella. *scrolls up*

"So it would be better for both Tommen and Myrcella to die than for Bran to die? Why?"

This is the question I asked you. Quit trying to dodge it or pretend you think I'm talking about Jaime and Cersei.

Who said I was pretending I honestly thought you were talking about Jaime and Cersei you were defending their right to live a few post ago.

And yeah it is okay for Myrcella and Tommen to die because Jaime and Cersei's selfish disregard for their children's lives while having sex in an unfimiliar place obviously says they don't care about their children.

[Taenqyrhae]

Who said I was pretending I honestly thought you were talking about Jaime and Cersei you were defending their right to live a few post ago.

And yeah it is okay for Myrcella and Tommen to die because Jaime and Cersei's selfish disregard for their children's lives while having sex in an unfimiliar place obviously says they don't care about their children.

So the lives of children whose parents do not care about them are worth less than 50% of the lives of children with loving and caring parents. Got it.

[The Wolves]

So the lives of children whose parents do not care about them are worth less than 50% of the lives of children with loving and caring parents. Got it.

I'm glad you figured it out.

And honestly Bran being alive IS more important than Myrcella and Tommen because Bran actually might play a part in saving the world while Tommen and Myrcella are just pawns in a game for a ugly chair.

They're going to die anyways probably and it is all Jaime's and Cersei's fault.

[Taenqyrhae]

I'm glad you figured it out.

And honestly Bran being alive IS more important than Myrcella and Tommen because Bran actually might play a part in saving the world while Tommen and Myrcella are just pawns in a game for a ugly chair.

They're going to die anyways probably and it is all Jaime's and Cersei's fault.

I guess you are one of those people who thinks that resources shouldn't be devoted to helping children who grew up in terrible environments. Better to save that money for kids from loving homes as their lives are worth twice as much.

And there is no reason to believe that Bran is going to help humanity in any way. It seems more and more like he may be under the control of people who do not have humanity's best interest at heart. Bran has also done horrible things with his extended life. He's repeatedly mind-raped a mentally disadvantaged youth for his own pleasure, and I'm willing to bet he ends up raping Meera by way of Hodor. What evil has Myrcella or Tommen committed?

[Dragon Dust]

All of George's characters are imperfect and Jaime is no exception.

He is however trying to undo some of his wrongs of his past, which I give him credit for.

A fitting end for him would be if he sacrificed himself in order to save another.

[The Wolves]

He is however trying to undo some of his wrongs of his past, which I give him credit for.

That's the thing he isn't at all.

All he did throughout AFFC was help entablish Lannister rule more firmly in Westeros. He knows the Lannisters have control of the crown because it is believed that Cersei's kids are Robert's so their claim comes from Robert yet Jaime and Cersei knows it's a lie and still are lying and punishing and stealing by calling the rebels traitors when they are not.

How did he right the wrong or try to against trying to kill a child? Or when he had Ned's men murdered? Or when he helped start a war?

What wrongs have Jaime tried to right besides trying to restore his lost honor?

[Jehane]

I tend to agree that Jaime wasn't doing jack or shit for his kids. Yes, we learn that Cersei told him to refrain from getting close to the kids so that no one be suspicious (which frankly sounds to me like she wanted the kids all for her own--why would anyone be suspicious that an uncle wanted to see his niece and nephews on occasion? Especially when everyone knew that Jaime and Cersei were very close, even before they found out that they were very close). But Jaime never seems upset by that--he just says "Oh, okay," and goes about pretty much ignoring the kids. You can't then tell me that he did anything that he did for them. He did it for himself and for Cersei. He'd be perfectly content without the kids around at all. Hell, when Joffrey ate it, he privately reflected that it was for the best because Joff was a little shit.

Totally agree on that. Jaime is all about Cersei and himself, and even though he tries to tell Tommen that things will be alright and that he's Tommen's father, he doesn't care much about the kids. He cares about Cersei.The kids, especially Joffrey, don't mean much to him. I think he never wanted kids. He just wanted to be with Cersei. He's brainwashed when it comes to Cersei. That doesn't make him a better man. Not at all. He's driven by a love that's just... eek. And Cersei manipulates him into doing whatever she wants him to do.

[Dragon Dust]

I'm referring to his actions regarding Brienne and Tyrion.

[stangles]

· Jaime killed Aerys (yes, I know why), then confronted by Ned he showed no contrition for breaking his oath.

· He is having an incestuous relationship with his sister

· Jaime had sex on Roberts bed with Cersei , while the king was asleep/past out from drinking too much wine. Jaime also said that he would have killed Robert if he awoke during it.

· Cersei explicitly state (and I am sure she right) that Jaime wouldve killed Robert if he saw his sister slap, but Jaime is supposed to put his king above everything else.

· Jaime pushed Bran from the window, intentionally trying to kill him. Also, many readers do not know this, but Ned gave Roberts and his entourage his protection (guest rights), which Jaime violated.

· The Kingslayer admitted that he would have killed Arya (also a child) if he found her first when her direwolf bit Joffrey. He then says because Cersei told him too, but dude thats a young girl!

· Hes a pathological breaker of oaths He fathered Cerseis children: Joffrey, Tommon, and Myrcella Baratheon. He allowed his king to think they were his, wtf.

· He broke another oath, as the Black Fish said, I dont see my nieces daughter with you. I suppose you are coming to your cell. (I paraphrase Black Fishs quote, but it is in A Feast for Crows") Jaime was supposed to bring Sansa and Arya back with him, and if he did not he was supposed to return to his cell at Riverrun.

· Jaime supported Joffrey even when he knew that he was not the lawful king.

Smh, anybody who supports Jaime need to question themself because he is a terrible person. Jaime Lannister is in the same category as Ramsey, Joffrey (his son), Gregor Clegane, and Walder Frey. And he deserves nothing more than to die and be sent to the deepest of the Seven Hells with his bastard son :cool4: .

Add more reasons why Jaime is scum in the thread, and supporters of Jaime, I am willing to understand your stance on him.

Only two of those are morally bad (pushing Bran and potentially killing arya). I couldn't care less about the others you listed. Taking as stupid oath means nothing if its for a bad cause.

[nothingEvil]

Sorry, I know it's an old post, but I have to come back at this:

No, I'm talking about Westeros. There seven kingdoms, and Theon is from the Iron Islands, and their king with to war against the North, so he had every rights to cause hell.


Guest rights!!! Jaime pushed Bran when under Guest Rights. Also, the kingdoms were united then, so Jaime was just committing murder and treason because Cersei was Robert's wife.

Also, he was going to kill Arya because Cersei told him so. That's unforgiverable, Jaime is suppose to follow the king's orders, not his wife.

And I love how everyone is bypassing/ignoring all his other crimes... Jaime and Theon are completely two different characters, and I can back up Theon's actions with logic.

Wow, you are really the Ned Stark type of guy... The only reason Jamies actions are wrong is because he was breaking the guest rights and because he followed orders from someone else than the king? Theons actions are okay, because he was in enemy territory and thus not breaking any laws or rules? So, established laws are the only thing that count morally? If so, hey, most of the terrible things the Mountain did are okay and understandable, because, he was just fighting wars against the enemies of his king right? So his raping and child-slaying are no crimes. Yeah..

Oh and correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Robb and the other Northmen under Walder Freys guest rights during the Red Wedding?

Excuse me, but I think your arguments are based on a false conception of morality.

[ThatUsernameIsAlreadyTaken]

Killing Aerys was the one good thing Jaime ever did I don't hate him for that. I hate him for the incest and attempted child murder.

[Roose is Azor Ahai]

I CALL BULLSHIT.

[Aaronomus]

1. Jaime killed Aerys (yes, I know why), then confronted by Ned he showed no contrition for breaking his oath.
2. He is having an incestuous relationship with his sister
3. Jaime had sex on Roberts bed with Cersei , while the king was asleep/past out from drinking too much wine. Jaime also said that he would have killed Robert if he awoke during it.
4. Cersei explicitly state (and I am sure she right) that Jaime wouldve killed Robert if he saw his sister slap, but Jaime is supposed to put his king above everything else.
5. Jaime pushed Bran from the window, intentionally trying to kill him. Also, many readers do not know this, but Ned gave Roberts and his entourage his protection (guest rights), which Jaime violated.
6. The Kingslayer admitted that he would have killed Arya (also a child) if he found her first when her direwolf bit Joffrey. He then says because Cersei told him too, but dude thats a young girl!
7. Hes a pathological breaker of oaths He fathered Cerseis children: Joffrey, Tommon, and Myrcella Baratheon. He allowed his king to think they were his, wtf.
8. He broke another oath, as the Black Fish said, I dont see my nieces daughter with you. I suppose you are coming to your cell. (I paraphrase Black Fishs quote, but it is in A Feast for Crows") Jaime was supposed to bring Sansa and Arya back with him, and if he did not he was supposed to return to his cell at Riverrun.
9. Jaime supported Joffrey even when he knew that he was not the lawful king.

1. Not only was killing Aerys ethically justified, it was ethically necessary. Oath be damned, why should Jaime feel contrite about saving half a million lives?

By holding this against him, you've indicated that you are clueless about ethics. By your logic, Claus von Stauffenberg was evil for breaking his oath and attempting to assassinate Hitler. </godwin>

2. Incest is not intrinsically wrong; it is merely wrong by convention. That's an important difference; Cersei was a consenting adult, so there's nothing wrong with that, strictly speaking. Being dishonest toward Robert was genuinely unethical however, but Cersei is more to blame for that than Jaime (though he was complicit), since it was Cersei's vow she was breaking.

3. Since Robert didn't wake up, we don't know what Jaime would have actually done. We, and the characters themselves, can only guess. You cannot condemn a person for what they might have done.

4. See point 3.

5. Letting Bran walk away would have jeopardized the lives of Jaime, Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen. Save five lives (including three completely innocent ones) by killing one. Jaime and Cersei are responsible for being caught in the first place, jeopardizing Bran's life, but that's hardly tantamount to first degree murder. After all, they had no reason to suspect that anyone in Winterfell would just be climbing around indiscriminately as Bran was. So what he did was kinda bad, but hardly evil.

6. See point 3.

7. Yeah, doing that was pretty douchey, but it's really a drop in the bucket next to some of the misdeeds others have done. Pathological implies that he has an urge to break oaths, which is clearly not the case in ACoK. If it were pathological, that would only mean that it's out of his control, and thus grant him an insanity defense.

8. He didn't break that oath; he had every intention of keeping it, but Sansa left before he returned to King's Landing. He even sent Brienne to find her.

9. Not supporting Joffrey would have meant telling the world that Joffrey was a bastard, which is tantamount to killing him. See point 5.

Basically, Jaime's kind of a dick, but he's hardly scum. He's not even what I'd call "evil". I'd rather hire him as a babysitter than half the other characters in ASoIaF.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

Man this board is full of the most wonderful people who never do what's good for them but whats good for someone else even if you hate that person. Even in a horrible world like Westeros wow I wish you guys were my friends.

[Poppa Bolton]

And yeah it is okay for Myrcella and Tommen to die because Jaime and Cersei's selfish disregard for their children's lives while having sex in an unfimiliar place obviously says they don't care about their children.

Some might question the soundness of your logic.

[Poppa Bolton]

1. Not only was killing Aerys ethically justified, it was ethically necessary. Oath be damned, why should Jaime feel contrite about saving half a million lives?

By holding this against him, you've indicated that you are clueless about ethics. By your logic, Claus von Stauffenberg was evil for breaking his oath and attempting to assassinate Hitler. </godwin>

2. Incest is not intrinsically wrong; it is merely wrong by convention. That's an important difference; Cersei was a consenting adult, so there's nothing wrong with that, strictly speaking. Being dishonest toward Robert was genuinely unethical however, but Cersei is more to blame for that than Jaime (though he was complicit), since it was Cersei's vow she was breaking.

3. Since Robert didn't wake up, we don't know what Jaime would have actually done. We, and the characters themselves, can only guess. You cannot condemn a person for what they might have done.

4. See point 3.

5. Letting Bran walk away would have jeopardized the lives of Jaime, Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen. Save five lives (including three completely innocent ones) by killing one. Jaime and Cersei are responsible for being caught in the first place, jeopardizing Bran's life, but that's hardly tantamount to first degree murder. After all, they had no reason to suspect that anyone in Winterfell would just be climbing around indiscriminately as Bran was. So what he did was kinda bad, but hardly evil.

6. See point 3.

7. Yeah, doing that was pretty douchey, but it's really a drop in the bucket next to some of the misdeeds others have done. Pathological implies that he has an urge to break oaths, which is clearly not the case in ACoK. If it were pathological, that would only mean that it's out of his control, and thus grant him an insanity defense.

8. He didn't break that oath; he had every intention of keeping it, but Sansa left before he returned to King's Landing. He even sent Brienne to find her.

9. Not supporting Joffrey would have meant telling the world that Joffrey was a bastard, which is tantamount to killing him. See point 5.

Basically, Jaime's kind of a dick, but he's hardly scum. He's not even what I'd call "evil". I'd rather hire him as a babysitter than half the other characters in ASoIaF.

Pretty much the argument I would make if I had the patience to type it all out.

[Mother of Dragons]

Thank the gods for this comment! You sir are one of few people who see Jaime’s true color. He has done too many atrocities to earn respect from anyone. He crippled Bran under the Guest’s rights, like wtf. Readers flip when Walder violated it, but when Jaime did it, it was not a big deal. After listing all his crimes in this thread, I am shock at how many readers still support him.

Loras admitted to Jaime that he felt terrible for murdering his comrades (that doesn’t make it right though), but the reason Jaime is living is because he’s a Lannister. As I mentioned in the list, Jaime never showed contrition, but Loras did. Jaime should’ve been sent to the Wall like Ned advised Robert, but Robert wouldn’t allow it.

I don't know if you're still around, but you realize guest right applies to the guests, right? And Jamie was the guest, not Bran? Have you read any of the books past book 2 or just watched the show?

[Mother of Dragons]

Wrong!

Most people would not have an incestuous relationship with their sister, especially if they were a member of a king’s personal Royal Guards. Also, an honorable man would never give his sister his seed, with the risk of people finding out the children are his. Royal Guards are supposed to place the king’s life above everything else, Jaime did not. Everybody is not like Jaime; for example, I know that my life is not worth more than many of men’s death. Jaime does not share my belief, and due to this, the realm has bled dearly for it.

All Jaime’s problems have been self-inflicted, so please do not follow Jaime’s fans and put all the blame on Cersei.

I’m sorry, but I do not think they can.

Except that the Targaryens were known for their incestual marriages between brother and sister. Another reason I don't think you read the series. I should stop reading this thread right now, because I know I'll get so agitated I won't be able to fall back asleep, but I just can't help myself.

BTW, Obama, you caused me to rethink my entire political affiliation, and I live in a swing state, too!

PS...The kid's name is TOMMEN. You'd know that if you read the books at all.

[Mother of Dragons]

deleted, double post