These are the Undisputed Reasons why Jaime is less than scum

[House Obama]

Jaime did nothing to bring about the Wot5k!

Also, by your standards Theon is the worst person in Westeros

- He was going to kill Osha

- He ACTUALLY killed two farmers boys who were innocent

- Betrayed a peace between the Greyjoys and Starks

- He let the Ironborn at Moat Cailin surrender and did nothing when he knew they would be flayed alive

- he lied about fArya and let her get abused

- oh and lets not forget he had sexual intentions towards his sister

There's a difference, Theon did not kill Osha, she left with Rickon, remember. And yes, Theon did kill farmer boys because he needed to make a point to the commoner about who was in charge.

Theon was a hostage at Winterfell, remember? Even though the Starks never treated him as a hostage should be treated. His loyalty should have been to his family, he's a Greyjoy, not a Stark. Also, he lied about fArya because he is terrorizes by Ramsey, who torture him with a flaying knife. He thought lying would help fArya too, so your argument is invalid.

And nice, you forgot to put that he had sexual thoughts about his sister when he did not know Asha was his sister... how convenient for you.

Readers know I'm right, but they don't want to admit it.

[The Wolves]

Jaime did help start TWot5ks let's not forget that every thing that triggers this war started because Jaime and Cersei's twincest. From pushing Bran out the window, Ned getting arrested, Catelyn taking Tyrion, Robert dying, Stannis gathering his swords for war, etc... all comes from the actions of Cersei and Jaime fathering bastards let's not forget that while his fans is absolving the monster from blame.

And Jaime is not changing he's still fighting for House Lannister to keep that ugly chair even though he knows his bastard sits on that chair under a false claims of being Robert Baratheons' son. He gave Riverrun to a bunch of murderers knowing they have no right to that castle he was about to break his oath to Catelyn in order to get Riverrun. He threatened Edmure Tully's child and he only reflects once on what he did to Bran he is not a good person and he sure as hell is not walking a path of redemption, he's a monster always has been.

[chrisdaw]

There's a difference, Theon did not kill Osha, she left with Rickon, remember. And yes, Theon did kill farmer boys because he needed to make a point to the commoner about who was in charge.

Oh he needed to make a point, that's ok then.

[Lady Meliora]

Tell me. Why is everyone ignoring all the other crimes Jaime's committed, but focusing on the killing of Aerys? I cannot help but to think that people are giving him a pass for being in love with his sister. Do not forget that Jaime took an oath in the light of he seven gods.

All religions forbid incest, but Jaime took an oath to be a knight and join the king's personal guard, even though he knew full well that he wanted to continue his relation with Cersei.

Also, please do not try to convince me that Jaime should have our sympathy because he shouldn't.

Jaime tried to kill Arya and Bran. Just because someone is crazy in love, that do not justify heinous acts. A person can be a killer for 40 years, then realize his crimes and says I won't kill anymore, but that doesn't mean they should be forgiven of their crimes. I love reading Jaime's chapters, but I know he a terrible person.

So every other Kingsguard member who's had an affair is equally awful for oathbreaking? Arys Oakheart's affair with Arianne Martell was despicable, right? And Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, what a bastard he was, possibly having an affair with his sister-queen married to their brother-king. We can obviously see how much Westeros condemns him.

Yes, the religions of Westeros all forbid incest--yet the Targaryens practiced it for centuries, and no one condemned them, even after the murder of Aerys and the ascension of House Baratheon. No one ever said "Aerys was a crazy, murderous, abusive jerk--and also how dare he marry his sister??"

I'm not saying that Jaime Lannister is someone to be admired, nor yet that he's the hero of the series, but he's not a completely irredeemable asshole. I really feel that honor belongs to Ramsay Snow.

[House Obama]

Oh he needed to make a point, that's ok then.

No, it's not okay. Theon's action was wrong, but he was a soldier in Balon's army. He was raiding the North, which is the Stark's land, so he had a legitimate reason

[JonCon's Red Beard]

No, it's not okay. Theon's action was wrong, but he was a soldier in Balon's army. He was raiding the North, which is the Stark's land, so he had a legitimate reason

So, if I go and break into someone's house it's wrong because I'm a decent person but it's ok if the one doing it is a burglar?

[igrewupinKL]

There's a difference, Theon did not kill Osha, she left with Rickon, remember. And yes, Theon did kill farmer boys because he needed to make a point to the commoner about who was in charge.

Theon was a hostage at Winterfell, remember? Even though the Starks never treated him as a hostage should be treated. His loyalty should have been to his family, he's a Greyjoy, not a Stark. Also, he lied about fArya because he is terrorizes by Ramsey, who torture him with a flaying knife. He thought lying would help fArya too, so your argument is invalid.

And nice, you forgot to put that he had sexual thoughts about his sister when he did not know Asha was his sister... how convenient for you.

Readers know I'm right, but they don't want to admit it.

Your response is exactly what i wanted. This just proves that Jaime is not as terrible as you are making out.

Are Rickon and Bran special because they are characters we know? Murder is Murder.

Theon is a great example, and no different. He swore an oath to Robb, the King in the North for his fealty. So Theon deserves our sympathies but Jaime doesn't? Theon going to Reek is terrible, but Theon committed the murders of those two boys on the advice of Ramsay Snow (if you remember) otherwise Theon would not have done it. Is Theon fully to blame? Can't you see this is similar to Jaime being whispered stuff by Cersei for all his life?

The parallels i was trying to make are this

Theon was going to kill Osha but he didn't - Jaime was going to kill Arya but he didn't.

Theon was a hostage of the Starks - Jaime was a hostage to Aerys, even though he was part of the kinsguard

What's worse, getting abused by Ramsay or death? if i was Jeyne Poole i think i would choose death.

Asha knew who Theon was but didn't stop him..is she as bad as Jaime?

As pointed out above the Targaryens were incestious, our own Dany thought she was going to marry Viserys. No one says anything about that though....

Although incest is bad, by the standards of Westeros its not the worst crime even though it is condemned by the Seven. Tywin himself married his own cousin...Incest is more severely judged in the North than the South

Except killing those farmers boys was an unnecessary part of taking Winterfell, which wasn't even Balon's orders anyway

[chrisdaw]

No, it's not okay. Theon's action was wrong, but he was a soldier in Balon's army. He was raiding the North, which is the Stark's land, so he had a legitimate reason

Theon's reason for murdering two non combatant children are legitimate as opposed to Jaime's attempted murder of one child to protect his sister from death?

[Jehane]

Tell me. Why is everyone ignoring all the other crimes Jaime's committed, but focusing on the killing of Aerys? I cannot help but to think that people are giving him a pass for being in love with his sister. Do not forget that Jaime took an oath in the light of he seven gods.

All religions forbid incest, but Jaime took an oath to be a knight and join the king's personal guard, even though he knew full well that he wanted to continue his relation with Cersei.

Also, please do not try to convince me that Jaime should have our sympathy because he shouldn't.

Jaime tried to kill Arya and Bran. Just because someone is crazy in love, that do not justify heinous acts. A person can be a killer for 40 years, then realize his crimes and says I won't kill anymore, but that doesn't mean they should be forgiven of their crimes. I love reading Jaime's chapters, but I know he a terrible person.

As far as I can see, no one is ignoring the crimes Jaime committed. Basically everybody in this thread stated that the incest is terrible, that pushing Bran from the window was a horrible crime. These are deeds that he cannot have redemption for but he can try to be a better person afterwards. I don't think it will work out for him; I think he'll become a better person but be killed along the way.

Also, if all religions forbid incest, why did the Targaryens do it without anybody stepping up and opposing it? I'm not saying that it's alright; it's pretty sick, actually, but if you condemn Jaime and Cersei for their incest, you should also condemn the Targaryens for it.

Jaime didn't try to kill Arya. He stated that he would have if he'd been ordered to/got to her first. We don't know if that's true because we're being given this account through the eyes of another person, not Jaime himself. Even if he was serious about this - he's being manipulated by Cersei. He's not the brightest member of House Lannister. Cersei knows how to pull his strings. In fact, Jaime is rather *uhm* stupid when we first meet him. He's all "I'm the Lion of Lannister, I'm awesome" - yeah, right. Remember - we see him through the eyes of the Starks. The same Starks who never questioned why he killed Aerys, for example. I really like Ned but when I started re-reading, I couldn't help but think of him as a self-righteous bastard who puts honour above everything else, not questioning the motives other people might have. He never asked Jaime why he killed Aerys. He just condemned him.

Jaime tried to kill Bran because he was trying to protect Cersei or rather because Cersei was afraid and urged him to do something - there's no excuse for that. I think we all can agree on that. Trying to kill a child is a horrible thing, and throughout the first two books, Jaime is a horrible person. Yet, he's changing and I think that his deeds haunt him. He killed Aerys because someone had to - also, if he hadn't done it and another person had tried to kill Aerys, he would have been torn between decisions. He would have had to decide whether to let that other person kill Aerys or kill that person in order to save the king. In any case, he'd have been f***ed.

One thing I really don't get is this: In another thread, you stated that Walder Frey was misunderstood and that he had every right to kill Robb and his bannermen. In this thread, you state that Jaime is on the same level as Walder Frey. It doesn't add up for me. You defend Walder but condemn Jaime, yet you claim that both are equally evil. I don't get it.

[Jehane]

No, it's not okay. Theon's action was wrong, but he was a soldier in Balon's army. He was raiding the North, which is the Stark's land, so he had a legitimate reason

No, he did not. He tried to prove himself, tried to show his crazy father that he was a true Ironborn, tried to elicit respect from his men. To accomplish this, he killed two innocent boys because he was unable to get his hands on Bran and Rickon. He lied because he wanted respect. And it didn't work out. His task was to raid some fisher's villages, not to take Winterfell. He came up with that plan on his own because he thought his father would be proud of him if he took Winterfell and held it. He didn't obey Balon's orders simply because he wanted to prove that he was awesome. He's not. He's insecure, he's lost, and I pity him.

[House Obama]

So, if I go and break into someone's house it's wrong because I'm a decent person but it's ok if the one doing it is a burglar?

No, I'm talking about Westeros. There seven kingdoms, and Theon is from the Iron Islands, and their king with to war against the North, so he had every rights to cause hell.

Theon's reason for murdering two non combatant children are legitimate as opposed to Jaime's attempted murder of one child to protect his sister from death?

Guest rights!!! Jaime pushed Bran when under Guest Rights. Also, the kingdoms were united then, so Jaime was just committing murder and treason because Cersei was Robert's wife.

Also, he was going to kill Arya because Cersei told him so. That's unforgiverable, Jaime is suppose to follow the king's orders, not his wife.

And I love how everyone is bypassing/ignoring all his other crimes... Jaime and Theon are completely two different characters, and I can back up Theon's actions with logic.

[Jehane]

Oh, for God's sake, no one is ignoring Jaime's crimes.

[House Obama]

No, he did not. He tried to prove himself, tried to show his crazy father that he was a true Ironborn, tried to elicit respect from his men. To accomplish this, he killed two innocent boys because he was unable to get his hands on Bran and Rickon. He lied because he wanted respect. And it didn't work out. His task was to raid some fisher's villages, not to take Winterfell. He came up with that plan on his own because he thought his father would be proud of him if he took Winterfell and held it. He didn't obey Balon's orders simply because he wanted to prove that he was awesome. He's not. He's insecure, he's lost, and I pity him.

Yes, Theon is lost, I agree. And he had to do something in order for the town folks to fear or respect him. If he showed up without the boys, the residents of Winterfell and his ironborn men would have not respect him. He was fighting for his father atm.

And yes, he did feel belittle by his father when he was ordered to attack peasant (also, do not forget that their religion praises raring and pillaging). Nevertheless, he obeyed, until he thought of a better plan (which I thought was brilliant, actually) to seize Winterfell. Let's be honest, the plan was good, but he should've left after a day or two... readers tend to have a myopic view, but I'm going to change that one by one :)

[House Obama]

Oh, for God's sake, no one is ignoring Jaime's crimes.

But it look that way from the many posts lol, people are only highlighting snippet of my reasons why he's less than scum. Jaime is undeniablely a terrible person, who sometime do good deed.

I know I will get a shrapnel of criticisms from this example, but nonetheless I will say it. Adolfo Hitler was a terrible man without question, but I'm 100% sure he did some good deeds while he was in power. Was he a trouble soul who was confuse because he got rejected from an art school for Jew, or was he simply a crazy man who let his emotions get the better of him. I'm sure there is someone who can make a case for Hitler like people are making a case for Jaime.

Hitler killed loads of people, and Jaime did too (I know he's a fictional character). Jaime basically started the war of the five kings, and even when his hand got chopped off he still continued to fight for the imposter Baratheon, that's F up.

[Robinvanpersie]

The interesting counterpoint is Barristan. Barristan is the traditional ideal of loyal - he obeys his king, doesn’t question, puts his oath above his feelings, etc,. But as a member of the Kingsguard he’s done some pretty horrible things in the name of Aerys, and he’s allowed a lot more terrible things to happen under his watch. He’s a bit like a Nazi officer under Hitler; he’s been brought up with the idea that a perfect knight will follow orders without question, but the end result is pretty horrific. His ethical code is basically: king, self, kingdom. It’s pretty impersonal, he’s nothing but a walking weapon.

Jaime has also done some horrible things and has let horrible things be done as well. But within reason, he acts according to his own conscience. The thing he’s most proud of in his life is to kill Aerys, thus saving Kings Landing. He knew he’d be openly reviled for it, but he still did it. Barristan would’ve held to his oath and let Aerys burn the city down. His horrible acts are all within reason for his ethical code, which is basically Cersei, family, self, kingdom, king.

[igrewupinKL]

I don't understand why you think Jaime started tWot5K when he didn't. You might as well blame Cersei as well, or even Tywin for letting Joanna pregnant so they could be born :rolleyes:

You're pretty much ignoring all of our reasoning and rejecting other comparisons of characters who have done worse but yet you can sympathise with them?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'll ask again. Did Cersei ever ask Jaime if he wanted to father her kids?

I ask because it's often said how Cersei had Jaime's kids as her only way to rebel against Robert, an action some might see as fair, and some others might no. Let's not discuss that. The thing is that she did it, and those kids exist. Is Jaime supposed to simply say "fuck those children"?

Because having children is #1 on the list of manipulative women everywhere. I've seen or heard of so many woman who got to catch a guy with a pregnancy, or at least tried. So, considering there is no condoms in Westeros, I'd say that a lot of the birth control decisions are made by women (Tormund kinda implies when Jon worries about a baby, and we see many highborn ladies knowing the use of moontea so they won't keep babies they don't want to have). Jaime and Cersei have been having sex for years and she never got pregnant, so, I suppose some moon tea was involved, unless Jaime used Lancel's method, which in Westeros apparently works perfectly and it's 100% effective. We do know that she got rid of a kid of Robert that she didn't have.

So, I wonder if somehow Cersei simply one day told Jaime "I'm pregnant with your child". If condoms were available in Westeros, I would say this is also Jaime's fault as much as Cersei's. But Cersei didn't try to get rid of those kids as he did with Robert's, nor took the moontea she probably took everytime she slept with Jaime. She decided ALONE, not only keep them but lying to Robert. And she DECIDED ALONE too that Jaime was going to have kids.

We know that Jaime tried to at least carry Joffrey when he was born, and Cersei wouldn't allow him. And while he tried to keep himself apart from them, he knew that HIS CHILDREN would die if someone finds out. We are not talking about an affair that they could easily deny because there is no proof. The children COULD BE THE PROOF they need, children he never said "let's have!". An affair is something that they could get away with, but we're talking about three innocent kids that were in danger as well, children that are Jaime but apparently, he never intended to have but now he feels obligated to protect, nevertheless.

No one says this justify Jaime pushing Brandon, and in fact, Jaime and Cersei were both quite stupid for having sex with some many people around. But the damage was already done since the first Lan-Lan kid was born. If it wasn't Brandon, someone else would have find out, and in fact, Jon and Stannis did. So, when Cersei DECIDED that she was going to cuckold Robert, she planted the seed (npi) of the Wot5K. It was not their affair what started it all, but the children.

[House Obama]

Due to the long but eloquent post, I will not quote it; however, I shall make it clear that it is for JonCon...

Cersei probably did tell Jaime that she wanted his kids, not Robert's. And yes, she did have kids from Jaime to spite Robert, but Jaime probably knew that and wanted Cersei to have his children. Also, I'm sure Jaime does have genuine fatherly feelings for his kids, but he knows that he mustn't show it.

Jaime and Cersei probably had sex a lot while she was already pregnant too, so Cersei would be unlikely to become pregnant again. They could've also used moon tea too, like you said.

To continue, Cersei was right when telling Jaime that he shouldn't hold Joffrey because it was too dangerous and she didn't want him to become too attach to him. Moreover, he shouldn't have had intercourses with Cersei because it was treason. I do not care if people are saying that he was in love with her, it's still wrong.

And the children were born because of Jaime, so it is his fault .

Jaime couldve easily said the children are not rightful heis, then run to the Wall and take the black, but that's the honorable thing to do, and Jaime is far from honorable.

[chrisdaw]

Guest rights!!! Jaime pushed Bran when under Guest Rights. Also, the kingdoms were united then, so Jaime was just committing murder and treason because Cersei was Robert's wife.

Also, he was going to kill Arya because Cersei told him so. That's unforgiverable, Jaime is suppose to follow the king's orders, not his wife.

And I love how everyone is bypassing/ignoring all his other crimes... Jaime and Theon are completely two different characters, and I can back up Theon's actions with logic.

Jaime didn't commit murder, he committed attempted murder. Jaime doesn't know himself if he would have killed Arya, but he neither found her or did anything to her, it's a thought crime, nothing happened.

Theon committed straight out double murder, in comparison Jaime merely committed attempted murder. To back Theon's murders with logic against Jaime's attempted murder says more about your agenda than the characters.

[Aemond's Eye]

Jaime has shown contrition for what he has done wrong, as he says to Cersei, and the self loathing is evident in his chapters. Killing Aerys is obviously not a wrong and no-one on the rebellion's side was going to kill anyone for murdering the mad king. Loras lives because he is a Tyrell, had positions been different and it was Loras who was cut down by a member of a lesser house for no good reason other than they were angry, they'd have hung or faced instant justice by the many armed men in attendance.

By the same token, nobody was going to punish Loras as they likely believed the RG he slaughtered were either party to, or covering for, Brienne's killing of Renly. Not many folk would have considered that anyone but her and/or Cat Stark could have been responsible.

But there were those among the Rebellion's ranks who did think Jaime should have been punished for breaking his oath. I'm pretty sure Ned Stark would have advocated that Jaime be sent to The Wall for it. Even with Aerys having fully descended into madness by then, Jaime had promised to protect Rhaegar's children - as his own chapters indicate, and I'd wager he'd have known that there was dissension between King and Crown Prince by then too - and instead his father's men butchered them. Even if you accept they had to die and that Jaime couldn't have helped to facilitate their escape to Dragonstone - which I don't - then he could still have been kinder and smothered them with a pillow; he knew his father well enough to know what would happen.

Jaime broke his oath to guard the King, and was found sitting on the throne as Rhaegar's heirs were brutally murdered, and his wife raped and murdered. At the very least he should have been made to take the black, and by all accounts Robert's need to secure Tywin's allegiance allowed Jaime to continue as Kingsguard. Jaime feeling remorse for killing Aerys II or not protecting Elia and her babes doesn't mean that he shouldn't have been punished, or that nobody wanted him to be.