On Sansa's "Stockholm Syndrome" with Littlefinger

[Chebyshov]

On Sansa’s Stockholm Syndrome with respect to Petyr Baelish:
(spoiler tags for block quotes/cleanliness, as always…there’s no actual spoilers in this)

I was thinking of starting this off with a sanctimonious spiel about the use of the term “Stockholm Syndrome.” I think we have a tendency to toss it around rather flippantly, when the actual Stockholm case study was pretty complicated. But instead of pontificating on this point, I think there certainly is a colloquial use that we’ve come to understand. For literature, it’s not the worst way to neatly convey the trope of “captive” coming to love/sympathize with the “captor.” It also made for one hell of a great Always Sunny episode. For my uses in this, when I say “Stockholm Syndrome,” what I mean is the condition in which a captive would come to sympathize with the captor such that (s)he plays along with a self-detrimental ruse out of loyalty and affection for said captor. Moving on…

I think I should open by explaining why I’m writing this. Despite countless fabulous essays on Sansa Stark and the direction of her story, it still seems that an opinion by many is Sansa having developed some sort of Stockholm-like syndrome due to her time with Petyr. I’ve seen just about every degree of this suggested: from her choosing to aid Petyr in the murder of Sweetrobin, to her happily jumping into bed with Petyr. I strongly dislike this sentiment, and it is my assertion that not only has Sansa not developed any kind of true sympathy for him, but she actually is controlling him as much as he prides himself on controlling her.

This isn’t to say that Sansa “hates” Petyr. . I think she respects the results he gets from his political machinations. I think she respects his amazing ability to lie without batting an eyelash. But I also think that deep down, there’s a bit of this going on:

“I will remember, Your Grace,” said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people’s loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I’ll make them love me.

Whatever Sansa requires, or whatever suits her, I believe she’s a deeply good and empathetic player, who would rather play the game and “rule” through moral means. There’s 100% a limit to the things Sansa is willing to do, and being complicit in the murder of her cousin isn’t one of them.

I want to quickly note here that first and only time Petyr mentions Sweetrobin’s death behooving her is smack dab at the end of her chapter, and we don’t get her reaction to it. Somehow I don’t see it jiving with her, though I would give my left kidney to read her thoughts in that chapter Martin pushed out of ADWD.

I also assert that it’s evident Sansa doesn’t trust Petyr. I think she does have him pegged, and she’s not so much as confused by his sexual interest, but trying to walk a fine line between survival and her own wants (which definitely do not include sexual contact with Petyr).

I want to briefly talk about Sansa’s character. I feel that in terms of intellectual capabilities, Sansa is the complete package: smart, intuitive, and empathetic. To back these claims would be an essay in and of itself, though I’ll leave you with this post I made that kind of gets at some of this for those who are interested. What’s frustrating to me is that a lot of the fandom pans on Sansa. I feel like she’s frequently discounted because she’s been “passive” for her entire storyline, despite never really “stumbling” (the one exception being telling-Cersei-about-Ned-gate, for which I lay most of the blame at Ned’s feet). People keep saying shit like “when’s Sansa actually going to do anything? She’s so boring!”

Sansa is definitely a “captive” in like, 90% of her chapters, for sure. And while the caged-bird trope is a very common one (especially for princesses…yuck), I’m of the mind it’s one George is very actively challenging. I’m a far-cry from a SanSan shipper, but I think their relationship is a good microcosm for Sansa’s arc in general, one in which she ultimately will not be saved by any man but actively elect to take care of herself (another essay in and of itself).

I do think a lot of criticism for her character may come from people getting lulled into the trope, thinking they’ve seen what a captive damsel in distress looks like, and it’s not of interest to them, or at least the “captive” herself isn’t. Additionally, the “skills” Sansa uses to get her through her captivity are skills that may not appeal to many. There’s her intellect for one, but people see that in Tyrion and he also comes with quips. And then the other skills she has are ones that are usually coded “feminine”: her intuition and her extreme empathy play the most prominently. And while I’m loathe to “fall back” on sexism as a potential reason for Sansa hatred, I do think these are skills that are often discredited by most people, especially because the way in which she yields these weapons seem passive (by their inherent nature).

One last skill that I haven’t mentioned yet, is Sansa’s “armor of courtesy.” Sansa really, really follows the “words are like arrows.” She guards her words very carefully, except in a few rare moments of candor, like with Ser Dontos. I find that there’s almost as much meaning in her “…’s” as in her actual words. Yet she does this while operating in an appropriate manner for the social space she’s in. And this particular skill of hers, to have a “mask of courtesy” that hides her true thoughts while also allowing her to avoid criticism of her behavior, is central to her relationship to Littlefinger.

The reason I wanted to clarify her characterization is because this informs the way I analyze her material, and I think that they’re also important skills to keep in mind while reading her thoughts in the quotes I’ve selected.

Anyway, on to the meat of this essay. I’m only going to be pulling quotes from AFFC, because most of ASOS at the Eyrie is Sansa reacting to Lysa’s craziness, and being a bit creeped out by Petyr’s one kiss. It’s AFFC when she has to fully embody Alayne (and now no one knows the truth but her and LF. Even a crazy Lysa is better than no one else), and that Petyr really ups his displays of affection to her. These are the conditions for Stockholm Syndrome to set in.

Because I said that Sansa is so highly intuitive, I’d be remiss if I didn’t start things off with her first immediate read of Petyr from AGOT:

When Sansa finally looked up, a man was standing over her, staring. He was short, with a pointed beard and a silver streak in his hair, almost as old as her father. "You must be one of her daughters," he said to her.

He had grey-green eyes that did not smile when his mouth did. "You have the Tully look."

"I'm Sansa Stark," she said, ill at ease.

Her shade-dar goes off the second she lays eyes on him. Let’s counter that to the Hound (not to ship them, of course, but more that this is a guy who through all his fucked upness, is someone she could probably trust in to keep her safe, though he’s not my recommendation).

Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and

for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her, his mouth twisted in a terrible mockery of a smile. "You are shaking, girl," he said, his voice rasping. "Do I frighten you so much?" He did, and had since she had first laid eyes on the ruin that fire had made of his face, though it seemed to her now that he was not half so terrifying as the other.

Yeah, obviously a guy with a disfigured face is going to scare the shit out of a sheltered 12-year-old, but what she’s intuiting, rather than more viscerally reacting to, is a certain protectiveness in a really weird way. The next line here is actually “Still, Sansa wrenched away from him,” with that “still” sort of connoting an almost illogical move on her part.

The reason I think it’s good to contrast these two quotes is because we’re talking about Sansa’s potential attraction and/or sympathies towards Petyr. And while I’m can’t make the argument that Sansa hates Petyr by any stretch of the imagination, I can make the argument that when it comes to her choice, he is not looked at sexually, a role that we’re instead seeing Sandor take on in her subconscious. And she also isn’t looking at Petyr in any sort of romantic (meaning idealized) way. All of this is in keeping with her knee-jerk reactions to both men. And I think that’s something we shouldn’t discount, especially when (from what I can tell) her readings of individuals have been spot on.

Now, in AFFC, we pick up with Sansa in a very vulnerable position, where she is literally trapped on top of a fucking mountain with Petyr, and worse still facing murder charges for a crime he committed. She believes her only “safety” comes from playing along with him. While it’s easy for us to argue if she’d be better off telling Royce who she was, keep in mind where Sansa is coming from:
“ He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me? The war is finished and Winterfell is fallen.”

From what she can tell, Petyr is her only ally, even if it’s because she gives him a boner.

The things her aunt had said just before she fell still troubled Sansa greatly. “Ravings,” Petyr called them. “My wife was mad, you saw that for yourself.” And so she had. All I did was build a snow castle, and she meant to push me out the Moon Door. Petyr saved me. He loved my mother well, and...
And her? How could she doubt it? He had saved her.

He saved Alayne, his daughter, a voice within her whispered. But she was Sansa too... and sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle... but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she’d known at King’s Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei’s ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go.

This quote is packed. For starters, it’s clear that Sansa didn’t fully take in what was being said by her aunt given the traumatic nature of that situation for her. She’s troubled, but it’s not in a coherent way that allows her to piece anything together.

More interesting still, she’s skeptical of Petyr’s love for her, which is something few doubt given how overly interested/predatory he is. But she gets right to the core of Petyr’s conflicting feelings for her. He sees her as something in between his sexual fantasy and his daughter, and that’s something she understands. GRRM even

about Show!Sansa. Granted, this is in the episode with her “Darth Sansa” moment (I called it her official Show!Pawn-to-Player moment), but I strongly believe that Book!Sansa has LF just as pegged and will get to this moment as well, though I’m sure in a different way.

As to why she’s doubting his “love,” I think because the nature of Petyr’s expression of interest to her is so completely exploitative in that it’s very much unwanted and done with a completely disregard for her emotions, that isn’t something she’d view as “love,” or is it something any of us should view in that way. What’s very telling too, is that even if “Petyr” is a friend to Sansa and “Littlefinger” isn’t (though as she notes, viewing them separately is a bit of a fallacy), if she had any other place to go, she’d leave them “both.” That was a very pointed use of the word “both,” because it demonstrates that she’s not enamored with the weasely politician nor the vulturous would-be lover or maybe-father (ick).

Here, we’re shown Sansa not loving his means, nor the part she is playing:

“We have come to an agreement, Marillion and I. Mord can be most persuasive. And if our singer disappoints us and sings a song we do not care to hear, why, you and I need only say he lies.

Whom do you imagine Lord Nestor will believe?”

“Us?” Sansa wished she could be certain.

“Of course. Our lies will profit him.”

The solar was warm, the fire crackling merrily, but Sansa shivered all the same. “Yes, but... but what if...”
“What if Lord Nestor values honor more than profit?” Petyr put his arm around her. “What if it is truth he wants, and justice for his murdered lady?” He smiled. “I know Lord Nestor, sweetling. Do you imagine I’d ever let him harm my daughter?”

I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard’s daughter and Lady Catelyn’s, the blood of Winterfell. She did not say it, though. If not for Petyr Baelish it would have been Sansa who went spinning through a cold blue sky to stony death six hundred feet below, instead of Lysa Arryn. He is so bold. Sansa wished she had his courage. She wanted to crawl back into bed and hide beneath her blanket, to sleep and sleep.

Despite Petyr being absolutely right about these lies, we’re seeing Sansa shivering, in reaction to it. Duplicitous means do not sit well with her, nor have they ever. Take note of her “…’s” as I said. Other characters are fond of filling in the gaps for her, but Sansa’s mind is generally whirring away in a slightly different direction. There, she’s looking for some other way out of the sordid affair by trying to find a hole in the logic.

We also see her push against being Petyr’s daughter, even when it’s evoked without the problematic sexual intent attached. Sansa’s not enraptured with being Alayne. She’s keeping her mask of courtesy here, and keeping these thoughts in. It’s not to say there’s things she doesn’t respect in him, but I do argue that she isn’t under his wing.

“... Lord Nestor’s claim to the Gates will suddenly be called into question. I promise you, that is not lost on him. It was clever of you to see it. Though no more than I’d expect of mine own daughter.”

“Thank you.” She felt absurdly proud for puzzling it out, but confused as well. “I’m not, though. Your daughter. Not truly. I mean, I pretend to be Alayne, but you know...”

Littlefinger put a finger to her lips. “I know what I know, and so do you. Some things are best left unsaid, sweetling.”

“Even when we are alone?”

“Especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?”

Marillion’s face seemed to float before her, the bandage pale across his eyes. Behind him she could see Ser Dontos, the crossbow bolts still in him. “No,” Sansa said. “Please.”

“I am tempted to say this is no game we play, daughter, but of course it is. The game of thrones.”
I never asked to play. The game was too dangerous. One slip and I am dead.

Here, Sansa is so creeped out by the weirdness of the situation that she tries to get Petyr to own up to it. She is “learning” from him, and her “absurd pride” that comes with it is complicated; likely because she was never brought up to value an understand of political nuance, and because it’s coming from a faux father figure rather than one who she’d actually want to make proud. But overall we get two vibes from her: 1) she doesn’t want to be Alayne and doesn’t want Petyr to call her that when they’re alone, and 2) she doesn’t even want to play this game at all. We saw what her “ambition” was in the snow-castle chapter…rebuilding Winterfell and having a place she can call home. I guess LF’s plan for her involves some of that, but in a very fucked up way.

Oh, and the idea of harming innocents, even ones as pervy as Marillion, upset her a lot. Because she’s nice.

Can you be my daughter in your heart?”

“I...” I do not know, my lord, she almost said, but that was not what he wanted to hear. Lies and Arbor gold, she thought. “I am Alayne, Father. Who else would I be?”

Here we’re told what her “…’s” mean. But she’s very consciously lying to LF to appease him and take the path of least resistance for herself…not becoming endeared to the plan.

“I despise porridge.” He looked at her with Littlefinger’s eyes. “I’d sooner break my fast with a kiss.”

A true daughter would not refuse her sire a kiss, so Alayne went to him and kissed him, a quick dry peck upon the cheek, and just as quickly stepped away.

“How... dutiful.” Littlefinger smiled with his mouth, but not his eyes.

This is so uncomfortable, and the fact that she calls his eyes “Littlefinger’s eyes” tells us everything about where her psyche is at. She does not like his gaze, by any stretch of the imagination, but completely understands what it signifies. Sansa thinks her only option is to kiss him here, but is so cautious about it. And then we see her viewing him in the exact same light as when she first met him…disingenuous.

A quick note on male-gaze with Sansa, Tyrion was completely voyeuristic (which we know from his own thoughts), which is something Sansa “recalls” during her traumatic-turned-erotic dream from ASOS:

That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed at his throat and the blood ran down across his fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb. And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish that you were Lady,” she said.

Her choice of phrase to describe Tyrion’s gaze as “devouring her” is interesting, and I can’t help but think there’s a bit of this that she sees in “Littlefinger’s eyes.” It’s not a positive connotation for her, which is likely why her subconscious sublimates the encounter with an erotic scene featuring Sandor instead, who has become the focus in her developing sexuality. Not that they will bang, but he’s definitely a fantasy for her, unlike Petyr.

That was when her suspicion turned to certainty. “And how shall you reward him for this service?”

Littlefinger laughed aloud. “With gold and boys and promises, of course. Ser Lyn is a man of simple tastes, my sweetling. All he likes is gold and boys and killing.”

Sansa’s a fast “learner” for lack of a better word. But I think what’s also curious is that she uses “Littlefinger” there. In the passage from which this was pulled, she called him “Petyr” most immediately. She also took note of the “candlelight dancing in his eyes,” which given her reaction to gaze, is indicative of some level of mistrust on her part. It’s also worth pointing out that Sansa was not a fan of Ser Lyn, so Petyr using/allying with the likes of him seems like it would go against Sansa’s moral code.

“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true.

Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

This is the one and only moment where she “slips” and thinks of herself as Alayne and Petyr’s daughter. It also seems like she’s trying to weaken Sweetrobin, but keep in mind at this point she has no idea of Petyr’s plans to kill him, and from her point of view, she’s trying to get the most annoying kid possible from point A to point B, where the path involves a ridiculously treacherous decent. The “larger concerns” here are about what is best for “Lord Arryn” and the Vale. As for why she’s “Alayne” now, I would argue that it’s not due to her coming around on the role in a Stockholmy way. From the same chapter:

And yet the thought of leaving frightened her almost as much as it frightened Robert. She only hid it better. Her father said there was no shame in being afraid, only in showing your fear. “All men live with fear,” he said. Alayne was not certain she believed that. Nothing frightened Petyr Baelish. He only said that to make me brave. She would need to be brave down below, where the chance of being unmasked was so much greater. Petyr’s friends at court had sent him word that the queen had men out looking for the Imp and Sansa Stark. It will mean my head if I am found, she reminded herself as she descended a flight of icy stone steps. I must be Alayne all the time, inside and out.

Maybe this is something Petyr told her, but it is so eerily similar to Ned’s words, that I can’t help think this is the “father” she truly thinks of. Especially when evoking “Sansa Stark” in the same internal monologue. And in the last line, we gain insight into why she is so uber-committed to being Alayne even “to herself”: survival. But I mean, even with that she’s blurting out about “Jon Snow” to Myranda and spending half her decent thinking about her family. So I would argue that this isn’t her coming to terms with her captor’s mind-games, but rather doing what she needs to do to survive. Which has had to be her MO since they lopped of Ned’s head.

“Alayne. Come, give your father a kiss.”

She hugged him dutifully and kissed him on the cheek. “I am sorry to intrude, Father. No one told me you had company.”

…

She knew better than to ask what sort of tales. If Petyr had wanted her to know, he would have told her. “I did not expect you back so soon,” she said. “I am glad you’ve come.”

“I would never have known it from the kiss you gave me.” He pulled her closer, caught her face between his hands, and kissed her on the lips for a long time. “Now that’s the sort of kiss that says welcome home. See that you do better next time.”

“Yes, Father.” She could feel herself blushing.

He did not hold her kiss against her.

This is their charming interaction once she finally gets to him. We know that Sansa fully understands how her “dutiful” (courteous?), tepid kisses displease Littlefinger (smile not reaching his eyes), yet this is still her choice approach to the encounter. His reaction is completely gross, and I’d argue blushing isn’t because of intrigue in her part, but probably because of inappropriateness not to mention an incredible amount of sexual contact for that “era,” especially for someone who has zero experience (I maintain that the Unkiss is a fantasy and didn’t really happen). And that her thoughts are about him not holding the kiss “against her” tells us that she still removes herself from him. Sansa isn’t upset she didn’t kiss him more because he’s displaced, but she’s more taking not of how he reacts to her. It’s not indicative of trust or interest, but rather the opposite.

Petyr Baelish took her by the hand and drew her down onto his lap. “I have made a marriage contract for you.”
“A marriage...” Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. “I do not... I cannot marry. Father, I...” Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. “I am married,” she whispered. “You know.”

I’ll save you from the final giant quote, which is just Petyr describing a plan, and instead leave off with this quote. The last part of the chapter has few thoughts from Sansa anyway, except when she smells wine on his breath, which is not something to suggest any kind of compliance or comfort. The above quote actually demonstrates her anxiety over his new plan, how it’s not what she wants at all. Her “…’s” here are about not voicing her true complaint (“perhaps not ever”). But she knows LF doesn’t want to hear that, so she gives him an answer that she thinks will be suitable, and also one that implicitly reasserts her identity as Sansa Stark.

Someone who has “Stockholm Syndrome” (in its colloquial use) to me implies someone who becomes endeared to her/his captor, even going so far as to standby them/stay with them at detriment to their own person, or lose track of their own identity. I don’t see this in Sansa at all. She made a very calculated decision to stick with the “devil that she knows” in Petyr, rather than throwing herself at the likes of Royce. Other than that, she had no real opportunity to escape, and even if she did, nowhere to go. Sansa’s “Starkness” reasserts itself often, and her understanding of the duality of Petyr’s treatment of her, along with her complete rejection of his physical advances demonstrate to me that she is not under his wing by any stretch of the imagination.

That being said, Sansa doesn’t hate Petyr. She respects his accomplishments, and though his schemes use unsavory methods, she has an intellectual appreciation for them. But I don’t think this is the type of player Sansa will become…more that she’ll be able to use this strategic thinking against him when the time comes. I’m of the mind it will come soon, perhaps once she sorts through her traumatic Moon Door incident thoughts. And when she does, there definitely won’t be sympathy for this creepy captor.

[Mladen]

I swear to God, if anyone on the God's green Earth is in need for explanation of what is Stockholm Syndrome, then it must be the westeros.org readers. And this essay just proves the point.

I suppose the author of the essay has forgotten that LF hasn't identified himself as Sansa's captor, as he literally rescues her from imprisonment she was in. That being said, it is difficult to claim that Sansa has a positive feelings towards her captor, when she doesn't see LF as her captor. LF undoubtedly plays an elaborate dangerous game around Sansa, but to claim that her emotions of loneliness (caused by deaths of members of her family) that LF is using are in fact product of Stockholm Syndrome is the clear misinterpretation of the term or the plain ignorance. I won't even go into the nonsense of Sansa helping LF to kill SR (I suppose the big clue that she was surprised that SR is meant to die wasn't enough for many readers).

So, I am sorry but we simply can't discuss Stockholm Syndrome in this case.

[Julia Martell]

I swear to God, if anyone on the God's green Earth is in need for explanation of what is Stockholm Syndrome, then it must be the westeros.org readers. And this essay just proves the point.

I suppose the author of the essay has forgotten that LF hasn't identified himself as Sansa's captor, as he literally rescues her from imprisonment she was in. That being said, it is difficult to claim that Sansa has a positive feelings towards her captor, when she doesn't see LF as her captor. LF undoubtedly plays an elaborate dangerous game around Sansa, but to claim that her emotions of loneliness (caused by deaths of members of her family) that LF is using are in fact product of Stockholm Syndrome is the clear misinterpretation of the term or the plain ignorance. I won't even go into the nonsense of Sansa helping LF to kill SR (I suppose the big clue that she was surprised that SR is meant to die wasn't enough for many readers).

So, I am sorry but we simply can't discuss Stockholm Syndrome in this case.

Did you read the essay?, because the author basically said what you just did...

Maybe I’m misinterpreting your tone.

[SevasTra82]

Did you read the essay, because he author basically said what you just did...

Maybe I’m misinterpreting your tone.

Sounds like this issue has cropped up in the past and Mladen is venting....

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I swear to God, if anyone on the God's green Earth is in need for explanation of what is Stockholm Syndrome, then it must be the westeros.org readers. And this essay just proves the point.

I suppose the author of the essay has forgotten that LF hasn't identified himself as Sansa's captor, as he literally rescues her from imprisonment she was in. That being said, it is difficult to claim that Sansa has a positive feelings towards her captor, when she doesn't see LF as her captor. LF undoubtedly plays an elaborate dangerous game around Sansa, but to claim that her emotions of loneliness (caused by deaths of members of her family) that LF is using are in fact product of Stockholm Syndrome is the clear misinterpretation of the term or the plain ignorance. I won't even go into the nonsense of Sansa helping LF to kill SR (I suppose the big clue that she was surprised that SR is meant to die wasn't enough for many readers).

So, I am sorry but we simply can't discuss Stockholm Syndrome in this case.

It's like you agree, but not for the same reasons?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Breath, Mladen. Breath... we've all been there with these kind of topics* and people lacking basic reading comprehension :lol:

QUENTYN IS ALIVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

*the crackpots, I mean, not this specific thread.

[Mladen]

Did you read the essay, because he author basically said what you just did...

I have read it, but the definition of SS here is quite unacceptable.

Sounds like this issue has cropped up in the past and Mladen is venting....

LOL... The issue has cropped up in the past, but I am not venting. Are you?

It's like you agree, but not for the same reasons?

Calling this a Stockholm Syndrome, by any definition of the word is rather nonsensical, in my opinion.

Breath, Mladen. Breath... we've all been there with these kind of topics* and people lacking basic reading comprehension :lol:

LOL

[Chebyshov]

I swear to God, if anyone on the God's green Earth is in need for explanation of what is Stockholm Syndrome, then it must be the westeros.org readers. And this essay just proves the point.

I suppose the author of the essay has forgotten that LF hasn't identified himself as Sansa's captor, as he literally rescues her from imprisonment she was in. That being said, it is difficult to claim that Sansa has a positive feelings towards her captor, when she doesn't see LF as her captor. LF undoubtedly plays an elaborate dangerous game around Sansa, but to claim that her emotions of loneliness (caused by deaths of members of her family) that LF is using are in fact product of Stockholm Syndrome is the clear misinterpretation of the term or the plain ignorance. I won't even go into the nonsense of Sansa helping LF to kill SR (I suppose the big clue that she was surprised that SR is meant to die wasn't enough for many readers).

So, I am sorry but we simply can't discuss Stockholm Syndrome in this case.

We're on the same page here. The continual use of the term is exactly why I was prompted to write this. This is also why I used quotes around terms like "captor" and "captive" through the whole thing. LF and Sansa do assume these roles in a way, though neither views it as such. Which is why my thesis is that Sansa in no ways is exhibiting any signs of "brainwashing or "Stockholm Syndrome" (taking its colloquial, though problematic usage to mean sympathy/affection for the person in the role of captor), and that she actually is the one with a hold on him. And that she'd never agree to participate in the murder of her cousin.

[Chebyshov]

Like, we can bash our heads against the wall and discuss how identifying something as "Stockholm's Syndrome" isn't appropriate, or we can accept that people here use it improperly and challenge what they mean by it anyway. I was trying to do the latter, but sorry if offense was given.

[Dulcinea]

This is a great essay. I for one, have always seen the positives in Sansa, since many of them are traits I see in myself, although she is more naive. I agree that it isn't Stockholm syndrome at all, but more of a survival tactic. I think , if there was any Stockholm syndrome happening, it would be with Ramsay and Theon/Reek,

[Mladen]

Like, we can bash our heads against the wall and discuss how identifying something as "Stockholm's Syndrome" isn't appropriate, or we can accept that people here use it improperly and challenge what they mean by it anyway. I was trying to do the latter, but sorry if offense was given.

Oh, God... No offense was given... Just that SS crap is so overwhelming. hence the reaction.

We're on the same page here. The continual use of the term is exactly why I was prompted to write this. This is also why I used quotes around terms like "captor" and "captive" through the whole thing. LF and Sansa do assume these roles in a way, though neither views it as such. Which is why my thesis is that Sansa in no ways is exhibiting any signs of "brainwashing or "Stockholm Syndrome" (taking its colloquial, though problematic usage to mean sympathy/affection for the person in the role of captor), and that she actually is the one with a hold on him. And that she'd never agree to participate in the murder of her cousin.

Yes we are. I might have created confusion here... I disagree with the fact that Sansa is in control. The entire show-thing has totally messed up with the perception on Sansa. Basically, show jumped several hoops and that is why "Lothston" (let we use in-universe reference) Sansa we see in show can't be used for analysis of what we currently have between Sansa and LF. I am a firm believer that the thing between these two is going to blow in LF's face and that SR will most likely be the reason for it. Sansa is far from the point you established (and TV producers) and we most certainly can't speak that she is in control of the situation. She most certainly isn't at the moment, but she has all she needs to be.

[MyLittleFinger]

The definition of Stockholm Syndrome is this forum.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Great essay, OP. I agree with pretty much everything. I AM SO EXCITE to see where this is going, but I'm sure it will not involve Sansa "falling for" or successfully "seducing" Petyr or her turning "evil". It WILL involve her using his attraction to her against him in increasingly effective ways, and eventually coming out in triumphant fashion as Sansa Stark. I don't know about HtH honestly I don't think he matters in the end. This is all Sansa vs. LF.

The only quibble I have is regarding the sweetrobin poisoning. I think that Sansa does really understand that what she's doing to SR is bad, that it will hurt and maybe kill him. I'm not sure she consciously understands that Petry's ultimate goal here is to kill SR, but I think deep down she has an inkling of it. That IMO is why as your quote demonstrates she is all "Alayne" there. It's something Sansa wouldn't be able to do, but "Alayne" can. It's not SS by any means, but it is a way for Sansa to distance herself from unsavory things she is doing.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Lovely essay, Chebyshov. A pleasure to read.

[Chebyshov]

Yes we are. I might have created confusion here... I disagree with the fact that Sansa is in control. The entire show-thing has totally messed up with the perception on Sansa. Basically, show jumped several hoops and that is why "Lothston" (let we use in-universe reference) Sansa we see in show can't be used for analysis of what we currently have between Sansa and LF. I am a firm believer that the thing between these two is going to blow in LF's face and that SR will most likely be the reason for it. Sansa is far from the point you established (and TV producers) and we most certainly can't speak that she is in control of the situation. She most certainly isn't at the moment, but she has all she needs to be.

Yes, agreed. And I do think that Book!Sansa isn't ready to break away from him yet, absolutely. But I do think it's coming soon, and I do think she has an understanding of what she means to him and how this can be used against him. When I say "in control," I don't mean that Sansa's aware of this yet, but she's coming to be. And once she has sufficient motivation to bring him down (likely SR, maybe coupled with reflecting on Lysa's speech), she's in a good position to do so, given her hold on him. The pieces are there, I just think she needs to step away to look at the whole puzzle.

I could be letting Show!Sansa color how far along in that process she is, but give her treatment of him and her wariness, it seems like she has a very firm grasp on his character and his motivations. Like he said to her:

"Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him."

And as I said, she's a fast learner.

[Mladen]

Yes, agreed. And I do think that Book!Sansa isn't ready to break away from him yet, absolutely. But I do think it's coming soon, and I do think she has an understanding of what she means to him and how this can be used against him. When I say "in control," I don't mean that Sansa's aware of this yet, but she's coming to be. And once she has sufficient motivation to bring him down (likely SR, maybe coupled with reflecting on Lysa's speech), she's in a good position to do so, given her hold on him. The pieces are there, I just think she needs to step away to look at the whole puzzle.

I could be letting Show!Sansa color how far along in that process she is, but give her treatment of him and her wariness, it seems like she has a very firm grasp on his character and his motivations. Like he said to her:

"Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him."

And as I said, she's a fast learner.

All of that is coming, yeah, but I feel like we are a bit impatient with this. It is like we expect some sort of dramatic transformation as we have seen in the show. All of this is going to be done in tune with the manner that Sansa's chapters have been written - slowly and subtly. Bit by bit, Sansa will be more and more aware of LF's plans and intentions and that will be his doom. Once when he makes her go against what she believes in, she will blow it right back at him. But, as intuitive and intelligent as she is, she currently hasn't reached the point the essay suggests.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

All of that is coming, yeah, but I feel like we are a bit impatient with this. It is like we expect some sort of dramatic transformation as we have seen in the show. All of this is going to be done in tune with the manner that Sansa's chapters have been written - slowly and subtly. Bit by bit, Sansa will be more and more aware of LF's plans and intentions and that will be his doom. Once when he makes her go against what she believes in, she will blow it right back at him. But, as intuitive and intelligent as she is, she currently hasn't reached the point the essay suggests.

I feel like we got way more than we needed of slow and subtle in AFFC in pretty much every storyline.

GRRM needs to get things going ASAP if he's ever gonna finish this! And that means Sansa developing a bit faster going forward.

[Mladen]

I feel like we got way more than we needed of slow and subtle in AFFC in pretty much every storyline.

GRRM needs to get things going ASAP if he's ever gonna finish this! And that means Sansa developing a bit faster going forward.

Perhaps... And I mean, the process has been going on for quite some time and with every new chapter, Sansa is moving a bit by bit towards being, if not player, than highly intelligent and capable person ready to take LF down.

[Chebyshov]

I feel like we got way more than we needed of slow and subtle in AFFC in pretty much every storyline.

GRRM needs to get things going ASAP if he's ever gonna finish this! And that means Sansa developing a bit faster going forward.

I kind of have a ladyboner for AFFC's slow subtleties, so I won't complain too much about that. But like I said, left-kidney for George to release the Sansa chapter he held back from ADWD.

[Mladen]

I kind of have a ladyboner for AFFC's slow subtleties, so I won't complain too much about that. But like I said, left-kidney for George to release the Sansa chapter he held back from ADWD.

I follow you for the left kidney and raise for part of liver :)