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Who killed Ser Hugh?


Illyrio Mo'Parties

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I imagine this has been done to death by now, so my apologies if you're sick of talking about it. But I just searched for some answers and didn't find any dedicated threads.



So:



In book one, we're led to believe that Gregor pops Ser Hugh on the orders of Cersei Lannister, because Hugh knew that Cersei poisoned Jon Arryn.



But in book three, we find out that Littlefinger poisoned Jon Arryn.



So what gives?



Explanations:



1. Littlefinger arranged for Gregor to kill Ser Hugh. I'm not aware of any evidence for this, but I imagine it would have had to have been extremely subtle. Perhaps he bribed the armourer to make a shitty gorget and rigged the lists to put Hugh against Gregor.



2. Cersei arranged for Gregor to kill Ser Hugh. This requires some convolutions to be possible, but suppose that Pycelle was lying in book two when he said that Cersei had no knowledge of his deliberately shonky doctoring of Jon Arryn. Suppose that Cersei ordered it, or was at least aware of what Pycelle had done. Suppose also that Ser Hugh was a Lannister spy, and informed Pycelle or Cersei that Jon Arryn was gravely ill and being cared for by Maester Colemon, thus precipitating Pycelle's involvement; an action for which Ser Hugh was rewarded with a knighthood and money and such.



Remember that Cersei really was worried that she and Joffrey would be dethroned. It's quite likely that she had a hand in Robert's death, and also quite likely she knew what Pycelle was doing with Jon Arryn, and approved, because Jon knew too much. And remember also that Ned Stark was poking around and may have brought all this to Robert's attention. In this scenario then, it makes sense for Cersei to want Ser Hugh dead, and arranging a rigged tilt against the Lannister's go-to hitman would have been simpler for her than for Littlefinger.



3. No-one arranged for Gregor to kill Ser Hugh. He just did it anyway, because he's a bloodthirsty bastard. The fact that Ser Hugh was potentially part of an unfolding conspiracy, and was killed just before he could be questioned about it, is a coincidence.



4. ...something even more ridiculous happened.



I don't know. Personally I favour #s 2 & 3, but recognise that #2 is very convoluted. As for #3, I don't like coincidences. To me, #3 would only be dramatically satisfying if Ser Hugh had nothing to do with the poisoning at all - but is there any evidence of that? For instance, why was he made a knight?



What do you clowns think?


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Gregor just killed him because that's what gregor does, he doesn't need a reason to kill some one. But I will say everything in game of thrones leads us to believe there's some big evil lannister conspiracy, when a lot of the reasons we were given turn out to be coincidental. To be honest, I'm not saying he did but sometimes I feel like he decided that joffrey hiring the assassin and Baelish killing Jon Arryn were decided after the fact.


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I argue the first on my blog - basically, I think Ser Hugh of the Vale was Littlefinger's spy in Jon Arryn's inner circle. He fits the profile - from the Vale, spent time around Littlefinger, about as low down on the social ladder as you can get while still being technically highborn, and in desperate need of cash. Hugh gives Littlefinger the info about Jon Arryn's investigations, so that Littlefinger knows exactly when Jon Arryn needs to be poisoned, and gets the payoff he needs to become a tourney knight.



Then LF stages a game for Eddard Stark's benefit - he tells Eddard about a vital witness, but makes sure that Eddard doesn't go in person but instead sends a subordinate that the new knight will ignore, then makes sure that Ser Hugh dies while Eddard is watching, at the hands of a Lannister bannerman, to make sure that Eddard is thinking "Lannister conspiracy" rather than "Littlefinger Conspiracy."


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Ser Hugh was made a knight in Jon Arryn's memory. I think it was said Lysa encouraged King Robert to do it but I'm not certain and I don't have my book on me.

Honestly, I think it's most likely Gregor did it because he saw the chance and killing is fun for him. Cersei definitely wasn't involved - she didn't even know Jon Arryn died of poison. Pycelle letting him die was him acting on what he thought Cersei would want, as he knew about the twincest. And Pycelle can't have been lying; Cersei and the kids were already en route to the Rock when Jon Arryn got sick. No time for her to be involved.

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Gregor just killed him because that's what gregor does, he doesn't need a reason to kill some one. But I will say everything in game of thrones leads us to believe there's some big evil lannister conspiracy, when a lot of the reasons we were given turn out to be coincidental. To be honest, I'm not saying he did but sometimes I feel like he decided that joffrey hiring the assassin and Baelish killing Jon Arryn were decided after the fact.

Both could be true, though. LF could have rigged the lists knowing that Gregor would kill Ser Hugh without needing to be told or asked to do so.

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I argue the first on my blog - basically, I think Ser Hugh of the Vale was Littlefinger's spy in Jon Arryn's inner circle. He fits the profile - from the Vale, spent time around Littlefinger, about as low down on the social ladder as you can get while still being technically highborn, and in desperate need of cash. Hugh gives Littlefinger the info about Jon Arryn's investigations, so that Littlefinger knows exactly when Jon Arryn needs to be poisoned, and gets the payoff he needs to become a tourney knight.

Then LF stages a game for Eddard Stark's benefit - he tells Eddard about a vital witness, but makes sure that Eddard doesn't go in person but instead sends a subordinate that the new knight will ignore, then makes sure that Ser Hugh dies while Eddard is watching, at the hands of a Lannister bannerman, to make sure that Eddard is thinking "Lannister conspiracy" rather than "Littlefinger Conspiracy."

This exactly

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Vikingkingq, LF did not tell Ned about Ser Hugh, Varys tells Ned about LF and Ned interprets it to mean Ser Hugh. Ned then decides to send Jory, LF again had nothing to do with that.



I do not think Cersei was involved in any way, nor do I think Gregor was conspiring with LF. I suspect LF arranged Ser Hugh to go against Gregor and either had 1 of Hugh's squires attach his armor wrong or simply knew Hugh had no 1 to help him.


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...But I will say everything in game of thrones leads us to believe there's some big evil lannister conspiracy, when a lot of the reasons we were given turn out to be coincidental. To be honest, I'm not saying he did but sometimes I feel like he decided that joffrey hiring the assassin and Baelish killing Jon Arryn were decided after the fact.

Yeah, that's the other option. I hope that's not true, but I guess we won't know for sure for a few years yet.

I argue the first on my blog - basically, I think Ser Hugh of the Vale was Littlefinger's spy in Jon Arryn's inner circle. He fits the profile - from the Vale, spent time around Littlefinger, about as low down on the social ladder as you can get while still being technically highborn, and in desperate need of cash. Hugh gives Littlefinger the info about Jon Arryn's investigations, so that Littlefinger knows exactly when Jon Arryn needs to be poisoned, and gets the payoff he needs to become a tourney knight.

Then LF stages a game for Eddard Stark's benefit - he tells Eddard about a vital witness, but makes sure that Eddard doesn't go in person but instead sends a subordinate that the new knight will ignore, then makes sure that Ser Hugh dies while Eddard is watching, at the hands of a Lannister bannerman, to make sure that Eddard is thinking "Lannister conspiracy" rather than "Littlefinger Conspiracy."

This is plausible, but unfortunately no more plausible than the others I think. And it leaves out the "how" - although I do think I made a breakthrough there... ;)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121403-who-hired-jaqen-hagar-and-why/?p=6514084

Ser Hugh was made a knight in Jon Arryn's memory. I think it was said Lysa encouraged King Robert to do it but I'm not certain and I don't have my book on me.

Does anybody know?

Cersei definitely wasn't involved - she didn't even know Jon Arryn died of poison. Pycelle letting him die was him acting on what he thought Cersei would want, as he knew about the twincest. And Pycelle can't have been lying; Cersei and the kids were already en route to the Rock when Jon Arryn got sick. No time for her to be involved.

I may be misremembering, but I thought Pycelle and Cersei were in the room and he read something in Cersei's eyes that meant "kill that old fool".

Vikingkingq, LF did not tell Ned about Ser Hugh, Varys tells Ned about LF and Ned interprets it to mean Ser Hugh. Ned then decides to send Jory, LF again had nothing to do with that.

Is that right? Shit, maybe Varys did it!

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"Gregor's Lance goes where Gregor wants it to go." -- Sandor Clegane



But then again, where Gregor wants it to go is generally where Tywin tells it to go, and Ser Hugh seems rather below Tywin's radar.




It sure seems like Littlefinger somehow liquidating loose lips before they even have chance to think about sinking his ship. But then again The Mountain loves him some killin'. If Littlefinger did "suggest" the idea he probably didn't need to do much.


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Vikingkingq, LF did not tell Ned about Ser Hugh, Varys tells Ned about LF and Ned interprets it to mean Ser Hugh. Ned then decides to send Jory, LF again had nothing to do with that.

I do not think Cersei was involved in any way, nor do I think Gregor was conspiring with LF. I suspect LF arranged Ser Hugh to go against Gregor and either had 1 of Hugh's squires attach his armor wrong or simply knew Hugh had no 1 to help him.

Littlefinger did tell him. From Eddard V:

"Had you thought to question the Hand's servants?"

Ned frowned. 'Would that I could. Lady Arryn took her household back to the Eyrie," Lysa had done him no favor in that regard...

"Most of her household," Littlefinger said. "not all. A few remain. A pregnant kitchen girl hastily wed to one of Lord Renly's grooms, a stablehand who joined the City Watch, a potboy discharged from service for theft, and Lord Arryn's squire."

"His squire?" Ned was pleasantly surprised. A man's squire often knew a great deal of his comings and goings."

"Ser Hugh of the Vale," Littlefinger named him...

"I shall send for him," Ned said, "And the others."

And then Littlefinger explicitly tells him not to send for Ser Hugh himself, but to send Jory Cassel instead.

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Even if Ser Hugh would have survived the joust against Gregor Littlefinger would have found another life-threatening situation to throw him in. Do we know who exactly knighted Ser Hugh? I think the idea originated from Littlefinger and one of his catspaws knighted Ser Hugh. Knights live kind of dangerous, especially the young and ambitious ones...



Conclusion: Gregor was one of Littlefingers unknowing "pieces" in the game of thrones. If he had failed the next piece would have "tried his luck"....


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