Who killed Ser Hugh?

[Erza Whitewalker]

I don't fault Ned for jumping to that conclusion, only saying, objectively, that he reached the wrong one.

I'm glad that you don't fault Ned*, but a lot of other posters seem to be implying that Ned was stupid. Yes, objectively he reached the wrong one, but it took us two more books before we realized it was the wrong one. If it weren't for Lysa blurting out the truth when she reached a breaking point, we'd all still suspect the Lannisters, at least for Jon Arryn. (We knew Jaime was responsible for Bran's fall but knew LF lied about the dagger - that does not lead to LF getting Lysa to poison her own husband.)

Given the entire statement by Varys, would one expect Ned to say "You mean Littlefinger?" If Varys knew everything (and it's highly probably he did), then he's at fault for deliberate misdirection.

As J. Stargaryen points out, the show played it a little differently; maybe a savvy watcher could have figured it out at the time.

*completely sincere statement

[unitron]

LF being behind the assassination is probably planned from the very early stages of the creating of AGoT. Its an essential part of the plot.

The Lannister conspiracy is obviously planned to be fake. Varys hints at LF already in that book though its hard for the reader to get this before later in the series. Its all done very well.

Regarding Joffrey I always had the same feeling. It was either really decided after the fact, or just a poor plot line compared to the sophistication of the rest of the story.

If you mean LF behind the attempted attack on Bran, the logistics just don't work on that.

You need Bran's fall and failure to die from it to create the opportunity--not foreseeable.

You need a way for LF to get instructions and money to the assassin in Winterfell from all the way down in KL.

You need the assassin to be able to get the dagger out of Robert's traveling armory.

You need the assassin to not get caught and reveal who hired him.

Besides, LF would be able to come up with all sorts of ways to sow discord between Ned and the Lannisters once Ned reached KL, ways with a lot fewer moving parts and risk of exposure for LF.

Joffrey could get the dagger, and the silver, knew in which room Bran was, and the general layout of Winterfell that made the location of the fire a good diversion (remember, someone told him Bran would be alone when everybody went to fight the fire, someone who wasn't bright enough to realize Cat would probably stay with him, so he, the assassin, didn't think of the fire distraction himself) and was stupid enough to hire "not a professional assassin, but just some guy who probably joined the procession north for a chance to pick pockets and such".

Joffrey was also stupid enough to think of killing Bran, a pointless act, in the first place.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I'm re-reading Feast for Crows at the moment, and I've come to the conclusion that it was probably just Gregor acting on his own. Nothing specific made me think that way, but it's just... if it's a mystery story with a prime witness being murdered, that's a massive coincidence. So coincidental that it almost counts as the author not playing fair... but, of course, this isn't a mystery story. It does have elements of a mystery, but it also has plenty of more post-modern/realistic plotting as well, and that includes the idea, demonstrated several times in the books, that the best laid plans o' mice and men gang aft agley, as they say in the real Land Beyond the Wall. There are several unfortunate coincidences that throw a spanner in the works for the story's schemers, and how well they adapt is a big part of their plans, their characters, and their stories.

Also, people are mentioning Varys trying to tip Ned off and Ned thinking he meant Ser Hugh - I don't doubt it, but it's important to remember that Varys has no allegiance to Ned, and is himself keen for the Starks and the Lannisters to come to war - just not yet. He doesn't want their conflict to boil over until Aegon is ready, and so attempts to keep it simmering. Indeed, his plan to send Ned to the Wall is itself an improvisation that he's forced to make when Ned and Cersei make unexpected moves of their own.

[ache]

I think Littlefinger indirectly had Hugh killed by whispering in Cersei's ear because Hugh was somehow a threat to him. It would have been easy enough to do, hinting to Cersei that Ser Hugh knew something or had been talking about the twincest, Cersei's paranoia would take care of the rest. I don't know what Ser Hughs story is, or how exactly he was a threat to Lf, but it does seem that there should be one. High Lords don't generally take peasants to squire, yet Jon Arryn did. Why? If it was a reward for some heroic service performed by Hughs father then why does nobody know about it? Ned has no idea who Hugh is, nor does Barristan. Why was this nameless kid given such a huge honour when Jon had plenty of bannermen with sons? Who suggested he be knighted in Jon Arryns memory? As Barristan said, Ser Hugh was probably not ready and Jon Arryn would surely have recognized that.Having Hugh knighted ensured he did not end up as say, - Neds new squire. It also made it unlikely he would return to the Vale, place of his common birth, instead staying in KL to make a name for himself. I dunno. There is quite a lot in Hughs story that will only make sense to me if there is more to come.

[Tynned Lannistark]

If you mean LF behind the attempted attack on Bran, the logistics just don't work on that.

You need Bran's fall and failure to die from it to create the opportunity--not foreseeable.

You need a way for LF to get instructions and money to the assassin in Winterfell from all the way down in KL.

You need the assassin to be able to get the dagger out of Robert's traveling armory.

You need the assassin to not get caught and reveal who hired him.

Besides, LF would be able to come up with all sorts of ways to sow discord between Ned and the Lannisters once Ned reached KL, ways with a lot fewer moving parts and risk of exposure for LF.

Joffrey could get the dagger, and the silver, knew in which room Bran was, and the general layout of Winterfell that made the location of the fire a good diversion (remember, someone told him Bran would be alone when everybody went to fight the fire, someone who wasn't bright enough to realize Cat would probably stay with him, so he, the assassin, didn't think of the fire distraction himself) and was stupid enough to hire "not a professional assassin, but just some guy who probably joined the procession north for a chance to pick pockets and such".

Joffrey was also stupid enough to think of killing Bran, a pointless act, in the first place.

I meant Jon Arryn. Bran is an attempted assassination :)

And as the book points to Joffrey as the one behind it, I see no reason assuming it was originally planned to be someone else.

My point was that I agree with the notion expressed that the decision to put Joff behind it feels a bit like a later decision while LF behind the Jon Arryn assassination is something which is very obviously planned from early stages of the plot.

[The Great Elk]

Can anyone clarify who it was that had Ser Hugh knighted? The assumption has always been that the knighthood was intended to buy his silence and reward his service (whatever it was) in the matter of Jon Arryn's death, correct? And the assassination (if indeed it was deliberate) seems like a panicked attempt to silence him more definitively once Ned started asking questions. So, while the two are not necessary inextricably linked, whoever was behind the knighthood seems like a strong candidate for the architect of the assassination. There are three characters we know of whose interests were served by these two actions:

1- Lysa Arryn: Responsible for the poisoning, had a previous relationship with Ser Hugh, but not in KL at the time of his death. Possibly responsible for encouraging his knighthood but highly unlikely to be involved in his death.

2- Littlefinger: Planned the poisoning, quite possibly had a prior relationship with Ser Hugh given his proximity to the Arryns and his time spent in the Vale, but has no influence over Clegane. Possibly had a hand in getting Hugh knighted, possibly rigged the lists to have Hugh come up against Clegane, possibly payed the armourer to sabotage Ser Hugh and leave him vulnerable, but I'm not sure there is any other suggestion of this in the text(?).

3- Cersei: Did not know about the poisoning, may have employed Hugh as an informant but I don't know of any evidence of that, does have influence over Clegane. May have knighted Ser Hugh to buy his silence about what Jon Arryn knew, or may have had no involvement in any of Ser Hugh's affairs except to have him killed when she discovered Ned was questioning him, fearing that he knew what Jon Arryn had known.

I think the most likely scenario based on the facts we have available (provided all the details I outlined above are correct), is that LF and/or Lysa had Ser Hugh knighted, then when Ned arrived LF directed him toward Ser Hugh, but ensured he sent someone else knowing Ser Hugh in his arrogance would not divulge anything. At the same time, LF let Cersei know that Ned was retracing Jon Arryn's steps and asking questions of his former Squire, so she panicked and had him killed. I believe this was suggested by one or two of you already.

I just came here to ask for clarification of the textual facts, because Varys and LF's (mis)information have muddied the waters slightly. Does anyone know, for instance, what became of the other members of Jon Arryn's household that stayed in KL? The pregnant kitchen girl and the stableboy and whoever else? Did they die suspiciously too?

[Victor227]

Can anyone clarify who it was that had Ser Hugh knighted? The assumption has always been that the knighthood was intended to buy his silence and reward his service (whatever it was) in the matter of Jon Arryn's death, correct? And the assassination (if indeed it was deliberate) seems like a panicked attempt to silence him more definitively once Ned started asking questions. So, while the two are not necessary inextricably linked, whoever was behind the knighthood seems like a strong candidate for the architect of the assassination. There are three characters we know of whose interests were served by these two actions:

1- Lysa Arryn: Responsible for the poisoning, had a previous relationship with Ser Hugh, but not in KL at the time of his death. Possibly responsible for encouraging his knighthood but highly unlikely to be involved in his death.

2- Littlefinger: Planned the poisoning, quite possibly had a prior relationship with Ser Hugh given his proximity to the Arryns and his time spent in the Vale, but has no influence over Clegane. Possibly had a hand in getting Hugh knighted, possibly rigged the lists to have Hugh come up against Clegane, possibly payed the armourer to sabotage Ser Hugh and leave him vulnerable, but I'm not sure there is any other suggestion of this in the text(?).

3- Cersei: Did not know about the poisoning, may have employed Hugh as an informant but I don't know of any evidence of that, does have influence over Clegane. May have knighted Ser Hugh to buy his silence about what Jon Arryn knew, or may have had no involvement in any of Ser Hugh's affairs except to have him killed when she discovered Ned was questioning him, fearing that he knew what Jon Arryn had known.

I think the most likely scenario based on the facts we have available (provided all the details I outlined above are correct), is that LF and/or Lysa had Ser Hugh knighted, then when Ned arrived LF directed him toward Ser Hugh, but ensured he sent someone else knowing Ser Hugh in his arrogance would not divulge anything. At the same time, LF let Cersei know that Ned was retracing Jon Arryn's steps and asking questions of his former Squire, so she panicked and had him killed. I believe this was suggested by one or two of you already.

I just came here to ask for clarification of the textual facts, because Varys and LF's (mis)information have muddied the waters slightly. Does anyone know, for instance, what became of the other members of Jon Arryn's household that stayed in KL? The pregnant kitchen girl and the stableboy and whoever else? Did they die suspiciously too?

Hm, was the stableboy the same one that Arya wound up stabbing during her escape from the Red Keep?

In any case, I -think- that the members of Jon Arryn's household that stayed in King's Landing weren't on Lysa's good side. Or perhaps they were informers for the queen. It's mentioned that everyone in the Red Keep has their own spies, and Cersei was far from an exception. She would have been keeping tabs on Jon Arryn's household, and those that stayed in King's Landing may have either feared discovery, or ambitiously believed they had greater things coming.

As for Hugh, I believe it was Robert who knighted him, though who arranged that is a mystery. I see him as a bit player. Obviously someone was responsible for his fiscal well-being, which indicates he was on someone's payroll, but his death? Cersei and Gregor don't have much of a rapport last I checked. Sandor is the ideal Lannister trouble-shooter in King's Landing when it comes to the Cleganes. I'm of a mind to consider Hugh's death a Gregor-related accident, though a happy one for the likes of Littlefinger, who was getting by stirring Ned's paranoia of the Lannisters. Robert getting drunk on a hunt and getting in over his head? That's reasonably predictable, especially with Lancel on-hand to ensure it. Hugh's gorget on the other hand, was just shoddy preparation on his part, and much more difficult to predict. Still, if it wasn't Gregor, it may well have been something else. Even if he had no role in anything, at least an extreme role, he was a leftover of Jon Arryn's in need of disposing of if for no other reason than to stoke Ned on.

[Others Take Them]

Varys tells Ned about LF and Ned interprets it to mean Ser Hugh.

How did I nevet see that???

[TyshaLives]

While reading aGoT, I thought it was Cersei but after aSoS, I figured it had to be Baelish. Varys and everyone else figured it was Cersei, which was a great red herring for Lysa and LF.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

My belief was always that Littlefinger was the culprit. He knows Ned is investigating Jon's death and trying to talk to Hugh, being the actual culprit for Jon's death Baelish doesn't want Ned to advance his investigation, and he can do that by having Hugh killed.

If Hugh is dead he cannot defend himself or any other suspects, and since Gregor is responsible Ned can simply assume that Hugh was paid to do it by Cersei, without ever suspecting Lysa or anyone else.

Littlefinger would conceivably be able to influence who jousts who, since he puts all his people in positions of importance why not put someone loyal to him in the position master of tourneys or whatever it is called.

I kind of doubt that Gregor would do it with no motive, after all there must be lots of knights and freeriders not wearing the best armour they could in tourneys, we don't hear about a trail of corpses following the mountain through all of his tourneys. And there is no particular reason why he would be in a bad mood that day. Thus I think either Littlefinger convinced Gregor directly, else he would have convinced Cersei that Hugh needed to die or used some other intermediary.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

He was called Hugh of the Vale, so we don't know his family's name. And it's not rare, for example there was ser Patrek of King's Mountain (who got crushed by Wun Wun). So I think that guys with this kind of name (XY of something) are bastards, but want to distinguish themselves from other bastards, coz they are from some noble father or they became knights of a big Lord or something like that.

We don't know that from which house Hugh comes. We don't know his parents. We don't know why he, a seemingly nobody, was Jon Arryn's squire. We nearly don't know anything about him.

So what do you think? Is it possible that Jon Arryn was Hugh's father? And since Sweetrobin is a weakling little piece of shit, Jon kept Hugh near him? Maybe planned to ask king Robert to legitimize Hugh and name him his heir instead of Sweetrobin?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Hm, was the stableboy the same one that Arya wound up stabbing during her escape from the Red Keep?

In any case, I -think- that the members of Jon Arryn's household that stayed in King's Landing weren't on Lysa's good side. Or perhaps they were informers for the queen. It's mentioned that everyone in the Red Keep has their own spies, and Cersei was far from an exception. She would have been keeping tabs on Jon Arryn's household, and those that stayed in King's Landing may have either feared discovery, or ambitiously believed they had greater things coming.

As for Hugh, I believe it was Robert who knighted him, though who arranged that is a mystery. I see him as a bit player. Obviously someone was responsible for his fiscal well-being, which indicates he was on someone's payroll, but his death? Cersei and Gregor don't have much of a rapport last I checked. Sandor is the ideal Lannister trouble-shooter in King's Landing when it comes to the Cleganes. I'm of a mind to consider Hugh's death a Gregor-related accident, though a happy one for the likes of Littlefinger, who was getting by stirring Ned's paranoia of the Lannisters. Robert getting drunk on a hunt and getting in over his head? That's reasonably predictable, especially with Lancel on-hand to ensure it. Hugh's gorget on the other hand, was just shoddy preparation on his part, and much more difficult to predict. Still, if it wasn't Gregor, it may well have been something else. Even if he had no role in anything, at least an extreme role, he was a leftover of Jon Arryn's in need of disposing of if for no other reason than to stoke Ned on.

Robert did knight him...

"Hugh was Jon Arryn's squire for four years," Selmy went on. "The king knighted him before he rode north, in Jon's memory. The lad wanted it desperately, yet I fear he was not ready."

The Ned paid for his armor...

Ned turned to the woman beside the cart, shrouded in grey, face hidden but for her eyes. The silent sisters prepared men for the grave, and it was ill fortune to look on the face of death. "Send his armor home to the Vale. The mother will want to have it."

"It is worth a fair piece of silver," Ser Barristan said. "The boy had it forged special for the tourney. Plain work, but good. I do not know if he had finished paying the smith."

"He paid yesterday, my lord, and he paid dearly," Ned replied. And to the silent sister he said, "Send the mother the armor. I will deal with this smith." She bowed her head.

And Gregor whacked him, just because...

"No one could withstand him," the Hound rasped. "That's truth enough. No one could ever withstand Gregor. That boy today, his second joust, oh, that was a pretty bit of business. You saw that, did you? Fool boy, he had no business riding in this company. No money, no squire, no one to help him with that armor. That gorget wasn't fastened proper. You think Gregor didn't notice that? You think Ser Gregor's lance rode up by chance, do you? Pretty little talking girl, you believe that, you're empty-headed as a bird for true. Gregor's lance goes where Gregor wants it to go.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I don't believe in coincidence. If Ser Hugor had anything to do with Jon Arryn's death, and I definitely believe he did or at the very least knew who did it, then his death was planned.

Lysa may not have been involved in his death, but Petyr has his hot little hands all over it. He does not overlook little details like witnesses as he so colorfully illustrated with the death of Ser Dontos.

I really don't see how LF could have predicted that Ser Hugh would not fasten his armor correctly and then just happen to face off with the Mountain. If LF needed Ser Hugh dead, he would have done away with him long before Ned arrived in the Capital.

[Lord_Tyrell]

What could Ser Hugh have witnessed, though? He probably wouldn't have realized Lysa killed Jon. At most, he might say he doesn't think the Lannisters killed him

Agreed. All he would know is that Jon Arryn and Stannis had been hanging out and went to a brothel, the armory, and wherever else Robert's bastards may have been lurking. LF wants Ned to figure this out on his own, so Ser Hugh is really no threat to him. In fact I think that LF was counting on Ser Hugh leading Ned to the brothel to see the next bastard, but didn't want him figuring it out too quickly, which is why LF suggested he send Jory. But regardless, it worked more in his favor since a Lannister man just happens to have killed him, putting even more strain between the Starks and the Lannisters, and LF told Ned anyway when it looks like he might leave. I seriously doubt he had any knowledge of the true cause of Jon Arryn's death.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I agree with almost all of this, but I don't think there's any indication of Gregor being interested in money or anything LF might offer. He was always a Lannister lapdog through and through, so I think he could've killed Hugh under Cersei's orders

Of course, this would make the whole thing pretty convoluted, though not impossible. I mean, LF leads Ned to Hugh but makes sure they don't talk, and at the same time, he raises Cersei's paranoid flags by letting her know Ned is suspiciously interested in a former knight of Jon Arryn. So Cersei tells Gregor to get rid of Hugh to prevent him from talking to Ned.

If LF has a hand in Ser Hugh's death, this is the only manner I can think of that he would achieve it, but still it's one hell of a coincidence he starts off against the Mountain to ensure his death.

[Prince of the North]

I think Littlefinger was the one whispering in Lysa's ear to want to kill Jon Arryn and using Sweetrobin's possible separation from his mother due to fostering out somewhere as the pretext. Getting rid of Jon Arryn would allow him to further his interests in the Vale. I also believe Littlefinger wanted to sow chaos in the realm by putting the Starks and Lannisters at each other's throats. Thus, he manipulated Lysa into killing Jon Arryn and either he sent the secret message to Catelyn implicating the Lannisters or he got Lysa to do it - either way. Then he needed to get rid of Ser Hugh because he knew how Jon Arryn actually died and probably by who's orders because he may have even been the one delivering the poison. But why not pay off a Lannister bannerman (and I don't believe Gregor would turn down a little gold), who needs very little excuse to kill anyway, to kill Hugh to further implicate them in the eyes of the Starks? Finally, I believe Littlefinger also used the Valyrian steel dagger that Joffery stupidly chose to give his catspaw to "put Bran out of his misery" as another opportunity to implicate the Lannisters in the eyes of the Starks - it was such an easy little lie that worked so beautifully. By that time, it was almost as if he was telling Catelyn exactly what she wanted to hear ;)

Yeah, I know it makes Littlefinger seem like quite the master manipulater/super villain but that's how I believe it went down.

[mdw4950]

read the first two pages and didnt see this so sorry if its been brought up through the later posts. anyway, i took it for granted that little finger was behind it. iirc varys tells tyrion that hugh was involved in poisoning jon and we know that it was LF who orchestrated all that.

before the tourney, hugh buys a new set of expensive armor that isnt forged correctly. where would hugh, who was an unpaid squire that has no family in kings landing, get the money for expensive new armor? LF. who would also pay to make sure that an expensive set of armor bought by a new knight that was knighted by the king wasnt made correctly (or, like ned hears, didnt pay the full amount which caused the smith to be careless)? LF. who would also want hugh dead if varys is correct and hugh helped kill the man he squired? again, LF.

after everything weve seen LF manipulate throughout the story, its very naive to assume he couldnt find a way to set hugh against gregor too. the hound also spells it out for us (i think it was the hound) by saying that gregor saw a weak spot in hughs armor and killed him cause he could. LF has spent enough time around kings landing and the lanniters to know what kind of man gregor really is. i doubt he even had to pay gregor to do this and its probably just like the hound stated.

[Mychel_Redfort]

read the first two pages and didnt see this so sorry if its been brought up through the later posts. anyway, i took it for granted that little finger was behind it. iirc varys tells tyrion that hugh was involved in poisoning jon and we know that it was LF who orchestrated all that.

But don't forget it's Littlefinger who pointed Ser Hugh to Ned. Yet I agree with the Prince of the North :

Then he needed to get rid of Ser Hugh because he knew how Jon Arryn actually died and probably by who's orders because he may have even been the one delivering the poison. But why not pay off a Lannister bannerman (and I don't believe Gregor would turn down a little gold), who needs very little excuse to kill anyway, to kill Hugh to further implicate them in the eyes of the Starks?

Sneaky Littlefinger ! And by the way, I totally follow you on your whole analysis, Prince of the North :cheers:

[Lost Melnibonean]

read the first two pages and didnt see this so sorry if its been brought up through the later posts. anyway, i took it for granted that little finger was behind it. iirc varys tells tyrion that hugh was involved in poisoning jon and we know that it was LF who orchestrated all that.

before the tourney, hugh buys a new set of expensive armor that isnt forged correctly. where would hugh, who was an unpaid squire that has no family in kings landing, get the money for expensive new armor? LF. who would also pay to make sure that an expensive set of armor bought by a new knight that was knighted by the king wasnt made correctly (or, like ned hears, didnt pay the full amount which caused the smith to be careless)? LF. who would also want hugh dead if varys is correct and hugh helped kill the man he squired? again, LF.

after everything weve seen LF manipulate throughout the story, its very naive to assume he couldnt find a way to set hugh against gregor too. the hound also spells it out for us (i think it was the hound) by saying that gregor saw a weak spot in hughs armor and killed him cause he could. LF has spent enough time around kings landing and the lanniters to know what kind of man gregor really is. i doubt he even had to pay gregor to do this and its probably just like the hound stated.

I disagree (for what it's worth). I posted a couple of quotes upthread...