Feminism: Allegations of Sexual Violations

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

I've never read the statute. Could you please post a link? That would be very helpful. I was commenting on the general statement offered by karradin. But, a specific view of that statute wouls be nice.

[Summah]

MSJ, no one can give you a single definition because there are many streams of feminism. I suggest you do some basic reading like this site and then after you've read the introductions and FAQs ask us any further questions you may have.

[Tempra]

The difficulty is that the States with legal systems decended from the English tradition is the "presumption of innocence". That's a good thing in my ernest opinion. It doesn't mean that consent is presumed. It means the defendant in a rape case is presumed to be innocent like every other criminal defendant. Are you saying the presumption of innocence should be reversed in rape cases? Because that's where you seem to be heading with that comment.

Thankfully, this would be unconstitutional in the US under the 5th amendment's right to remain silent. Compelling an accused to prove his innocence is such a dangerous and absurd proposition that should be viciously ridiculed at every turn.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

MSJ, no one can give you a single definition because there are many streams of feminism. I suggest you do some basic reading like this site and then after you've read the introductions and FAQs ask us any further questions you may have.

Thanks Summah! What I was looking for. If I have any questions, I'm sure y'all will be helpful.

[TrackerNeil]

Tracker,

I've never read the statute. Could you please post a link? That would be very helpful. I was commenting on the general statement offered by karradin. But, a specific view of that statute wouls be nice.

Here's something I found. The most relevant part seems to be...

An affirmative consent standard in the determination of whether consent was given by both parties to sexual activity. “Affirmative consent” means affirmative, conscious, and voluntary agreement to engage in sexual activity. It is the responsibility of each person involved in the sexual activity to ensure that he or she has the affirmative consent of the other or others to engage in the sexual activity. Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent. Affirmative consent must be ongoing throughout a sexual activity and can be revoked at any time. The existence of a dating relationship between the persons involved, or the fact of past sexual relations between them, should never by itself be assumed to be an indicator of consent.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

That sounds like you need to say "may I carress your breast" each time because "lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent." That will make the encounter rather awkward.

[Shryke]

I don't know about 'sold right', but I would say that pretty much anyone I've ever met, man or woman, that wasn't exposed to any post-high school academic environment simply doesn't know what feminism actually is. The strawman of the "cut off their cock-and-balls and kill all the menz" seems to be the prevailing notion of what a feminist is. I don't think that's how feminism is 'marketed', but it is the stereotype that it faces.

Feminism is still a four-letter word to the American public even for those that agree with it. Kind of like how most people like the provisions of the ACA as long is it isn't called Obamacare. It's just a general ignorance of what something actually is.

It's how feminism is marketed by it's enemies.

[TrueMetis]

Tracker,

That sounds like you need to say "may I carress your breast" each time because "lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent." That will make the encounter rather awkward.

The way I read it active participation would count as consent.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

It's how feminism is marketed by it's enemies.

This must be true, cause as I said, I've always heard and thought (out of ignorance) that feminists were man-haters.

[TrackerNeil]

Tracker,

That sounds like you need to say "may I carress your breast" each time because "lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent." That will make the encounter rather awkward.

I've been giving this a good deal of thought, and I'm uncertain where I stand on this. It's important to note that this new standard doesn't apply to criminal matters, but to the way universities must judge violations of their codes of conduct. No one is going to jail over this.

That being said, I suppose that, yes, under this new standard some relatively innocent things could be classified as rape. Honestly, what took me aback was the part about silence not equaling consent. When I was in my twenties, I engaged in an awful lot of, ah, unwise sex with questionable guys. Sometimes, I wouldn't be into it, but I'd go along with them because I really didn't feel like the hassle of turning him down and ending the encounter. I wasn't unwilling, but I wasn't enthusiastic, either. Under California's standard (assuming all participants had been college students), I've been raped many times. That was uncomfortable to consider. I certainly don't feel like a victim of sexual assault, but...well, I don't what to think.

I don't mean to imply that my personal experience applies universally, but I'll admit that it made me rethink my initial support for affirmative consent.

[protar]

Tracker,

That sounds like you need to say "may I carress your breast" each time because "lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent." That will make the encounter rather awkward.

The affirmative consent laws I have seen accept non-verbal consent.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Protar,

The one Tracker linked to did not appear to accept that.

[TrackerNeil]

Protar,

The one Tracker linked to did not appear to accept that.

I thought I had heard that, too, so maybe I linked to an earlier version, and not the one that was signed into law.

[protar]

Protar,

The one Tracker linked to did not appear to accept that.

I don't see where it specifically excludes non-verbal consent. Actively engaging in the sex act should count as affirmative consent, which is what I have understood the continual consent part to be about. It doesn't mean that each touch and motion must be preempted with a verbal "can I do that?" just that your partner(s) should be actively and enthusiastically engaging in the act - and if they aren't the onus is on you to stop and check in on them.

[Shryke]

Karradin,

Doesn't "affirmative consent" lead to the absurd notion that while engaged in consentual sexual activity each party needs to ask, and then affirmatively receive, permission before they can do anything?

The difficulty is that the States with legal systems decended from the English tradition is the "presumption of innocence". That's a good thing in my ernest opinion. It doesn't mean that consent is presumed. It means the defendant in a rape case is presumed to be innocent like every other criminal defendant. Are you saying the presumption of innocence should be reversed in rape cases? Because that's where you seem to be heading with that comment.

I do wonder if, because rape is a crime where only the consent is disputed, our system will ever actually be able to do a good job of prosecuting it.

Better then now is certainly achievable, but it seems like no matter what you do at some point you are gonna run in to the problem that alot of cases come down to a (s)he-said/(s)he-said.

[TrackerNeil]

Better then now is certainly achievable, but it seems like no matter what you do at some point you are gonna run in to the problem that alot of cases come down to a (s)he-said/(s)he-said.

Yes. An assailant will always claim he had consent; now, he'll simply claim that consent was enthusiastic.

[sperry]

Yes. An assailant will always claim he had consent; now, he'll simply claim that consent was enthusiastic.

Yes, sexual assault is a crime that the criminal justice system cannot adequately handle, as most of the problem cases are he-said she said. Requiring affirmative consent does nothing to help with the criminal justice aspect of things, but it does help from an education perspective.

If affirmative consent is how young people are taught from an early age, you at least are more likely to avoid the truly "accidental" sexual assaults. Unfortunately, our "teaching" tends to be abstinence instead of ya know, teaching about sex and about consent. It may not help get convictions, as defendants will claim whatever kind of consent is required, but it should nonetheless reduce sexual assaults.

[Seli]

Karradin,

Doesn't "affirmative consent" lead to the absurd notion that while engaged in consentual sexual activity each party needs to ask, and then affirmatively receive, permission before they can do anything?

...

Why is this notion absurd? As long as one includes non-verbal asking and receiving to me it is to only way to proceed and enjoy.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

This. As im reading this thread, I keep asking what actually are they talking about here. You know I've never had consensual sex where me and the partner have stopped and asked "do you consent to us having sex?". You know 99% of the time its implied to bofy language and ya know, the udressing of one another. Now, I have been in the heat of the moment and the lady said, " I don't feel comfortable, I'd rather us not do this." Therefore, I stopped, because she's not consenting. Am I missing something here?

[Kat]

This. As im reading this thread, I keep asking what actually are they talking about here. You know I've never had consensual sex where me and the partner have stopped and asked "do you consent to us having sex?". You know 99% of the time its implied to bofy language and ya know, the udressing of one another. Now, I have been in the heat of the moment and the lady said, " I don't feel comfortable, I'd rather us not do this." Therefore, I stopped, because she's not consenting. Am I missing something here?

There are ways of getting verbal consent that are more appropriate in the moment than "Do you consent to having sex?" I'll leave those up to your imagination. But suffice to say there is a gradient between no verbal consent and phrasing it like you're reading out of the legal language.