If the Valyrian Freehold is the Roman Republic is the Ghiscari Empire Carthage ?

[Lord Velype]

As I`ve seen in an video, GRRM has said that the Valyrian Freehold was "ruled by a group of wealthy families similar to the Roman republic". According to the wiki wose families were in the first place landowners.

The leaders of Ghiscari Empire seem to be more of some kind of oligarchs who lived from trading (?).

As the roman senators were also landowners in the first place (there was a law which was passed in the late stage of the republic which prohibited senators from investing great amounts of money in the seatrade whith other nations ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Claudia ) ), while it is not known of the carthagians to have a similiar law. Their form of state is discribed as an oligarchy by Aristotle.

When you keep in mind that Carthage was the archenemy to Rome during the time of the republic, could the main influence for the creation of the Ghiscari Empire been Carthage ?

[Ran]

Certainly, the wars between Valyria and Old Ghis are informed by the Punic Wars. But it's a little too straightforward to say Old Ghis is predominantly based on Carthage. The ziggurat-like pyramids and the idea that the Ghiscari were one of the first civilizations feels a lot like Mesopotamia (consider the sacred prostitution of the Red Graces that still takes place), but at the same time the military forces are called "lockstep legions" (very much referencing the disicpline of the Roman legions)... and the Ghiscari today have a lot of Roman aspects as well (the gladiatorial combat, the strange foods, the tokars which are basically togas).

[Lord Velype]

Ok, the aspects your bringing up make sense.

I was thinking mostly about the political conditions, not so much about culture.

Do we know if the Ghiscari used mercenaries during the wars against the Valyrians ?

Which would count for them "being" Carthage. Hannibals army consisted mostly of mercenaries.

[TheSovereignGrave]

I don't believe so. I believe they predominantly used legions of highly discliplined spearmen not unlike the Unsullied of the current time.

[SeanF]

Ok, the aspects your bringing up make sense.

I was thinking mostly about the political conditions, not so much about culture.

Do we know if the Ghiscari used mercenaries during the wars against the Valyrians ?

Which would count for them "being" Carthage. Hannibals army consisted mostly of mercenaries.

My impression is that the Ghiscari legions were citizens, as are the current legions of New Ghis. My impression from ASOS is that the defenders of Meereen were also citizens.

[Kushluk of Skagos]

Both have elements of Rome and neither is completely like Rome. In some of their actions the Valyrians are a little similar to the Qin dynasty, but none of the Civs seem to be 1=1 analogues.

[Lord Velype]

Okay not so many answers as I hoped :frown5: ...

Do we know any more about Valyrian culture ?

How do you think looked their buildings/ clothes ?

What were their customs like ?

What was the situation between the Dragonlords and their common people ?

[Pablius]

It´s clear that they are Rome and Carthage, but heavily modified with fantasy elements and touches of different cultures, much in the same way Dotraki are modeled after barbarians from the steppes and mongols with added elements of other horse based cultures, and everything turn to eleven...like The Wall is Hadrian`s Wall from Roman Britannia

Valyria build roads and formed an empire after defeating Ghis

Old Ghis and Unsullied armies fought/fight in a kind of phalanx formation typical of pre Roman warfare in the mediterranean cultures, at least this is what I remember from the top of my head, big shield, long spear like greek hoplites

They fought multiple wars until Valyria wins and salts Old Ghis lands so nothing can grow afterwards, this is said of romans too regarding their victory over Carthage, not sure if there is any actual proof or is it more of a legend

Those are all elements taken from Rome and Carthage, but I don't believe GRRM do exact copies of cultures, there´s always a mix and usually things are taken beyond historical proportions (timespans, number of people and soldiers, size of monuments and cities, etc), and everything has fantasy thrown at it, like dragons and magic

[Lord Velype]

They fought multiple wars until Valyria wins and salts Old Ghis lands so nothing can grow afterwards, this is said of romans too regarding their victory over Carthage, not sure if there is any actual proof or is it more of a legend

Another point for Carthage! Plus in reality later there was another city called Carthage in Africa, which was part of the Roman Empire (don`t know if it was on the exact same place, but also in Tunisia, Africa) -> New Ghis anyone ?! :smug:

[SeanF]

Okay not so many answers as I hoped :frown5: ...

Do we know any more about Valyrian culture ?

How do you think looked their buildings/ clothes ?

What were their customs like ?

What was the situation between the Dragonlords and their common people ?

Valyria was a Republic. Presumably, like Volantis, it elected its Heads of State, like the Roman Consuls. All Freeholders had the vote, which presumably included some women. But only c.40 families were eligible to hold political office. These families were the Dragonlords. Since women could be Dragonlords, presumably some also held political office. All Freeholders, however humble, must have held themselves superior to slaves, so the bond between them and the Dragonlords was probably close.

There are, however, records of religious disagreements. Yandel's view is that the Dragonlords were mostly atheists, who did however practise religious tolerance. Some Valyrians wanted to live in a more theocratic society, and were allowed to establish cities at Qohor and Norvos. The other Free Cities followed. They were all self-governing, but tributary to Valyria, unlike Slavers Bay, or Tolos or Mantarys, which were governed directly by Archons sent out from Valyria.

Valyrian customs included sorcery, and incest among the Dragonlords, to keep their blood pure. They kept slaves in vast numbers, particularly to work their mines. Slaves seem to have been essential to their magic. Some readers think they were sacrificing many of them to make their spells work.

[John Doe]

(the gladiatorial combat, the strange foods, the tokars which are basically togas).

Well, the strange foods... most cultures have them in the eyes of other cutures.

To the OP: Basically yes. Although I think Quarth seems pretty Carthagian too.

[John Doe]

Another point for Carthage! Plus in reality later there was another city called Carthage in Africa, which was part of the Roman Empire (don`t know if it was on the exact same place, but also in Tunisia, Africa) -> New Ghis anyone ?! :smug:

Yeah, it was on pretty much the same spot. There was also a city called carthago nova (new carthage, which is imho a strange name since carthage already means "new city") in spain which is nowadays carthagena.

[John Doe]

They fought multiple wars until Valyria wins and salts Old Ghis lands so nothing can grow afterwards, this is said of romans too regarding their victory over Carthage, not sure if there is any actual proof or is it more of a legend

More of a legend, since there is no textual proof for it in ancient times afaik. Still clear imho where GRRM got his inspiration from.

[Lord Velype]

Maybe the dragons are some kind of reference to the Punic Wars, too:

Carthage took Warelephants to battle, which could be seen as some kind of a super-weapon in that conflict (though they weren`t by far as effective as the dragons of the Valyrians).

[James Arryn]

Certainly, the wars between Valyria and Old Ghis are informed by the Punic Wars. But it's a little too straightforward to say Old Ghis is predominantly based on Carthage. The ziggurat-like pyramids and the idea that the Ghiscari were one of the first civilizations feels a lot like Mesopotamia (consider the sacred prostitution of the Red Graces that still takes place), but at the same time the military forces are called "lockstep legions" (very much referencing the disicpline of the Roman legions)... and the Ghiscari today have a lot of Roman aspects as well (the gladiatorial combat, the strange foods, the tokars which are basically togas).

Some evidence for Phoenician ziggurats has been discovered near Sidon. I doubt this played much of a role in GRRM's collage, but just to be dorky about it.

[James Arryn]

Maybe the dragons are some kind of reference to the Punic Wars, too:

Carthage took Warelephants to battle, which could be seen as some kind of a super-weapon in that conflict (though they weren`t by far as effective as the dragons of the Valyrians).

More likely another decisve avian, the crow or 'corvus' that seems to have at least proved decisive in the first.

I did feel Martin whipped out the 'there but for dragons' the way the Romans were want to polish their own 'never say die' attitude, or if earlier, the way the Knights (nobility) played the decisive role in any battle with your Samnites, Celts or what have you. As recorded by nobles, coincidentally.

[bens]

Yeah, it was on pretty much the same spot. There was also a city called carthago nova (new carthage, which is imho a strange name since carthage already means "new city") in spain which is nowadays carthagena.

Well, the Carthaginians called both cities "Qart Hadasht". Calling one "Carthago" and the other "Carthago Nova" was a Roman decision, presumably a result of not understanding Phoenician.

Anyway, it seems pretty clear that there is only the most tenuous connection between Ghis and Carthage in culture and history.

[Ran]

Well, the strange foods... most cultures have them in the eyes of other cutures.

Sure, but some of the dishes are very specifically Roman dishes. Honeyed locusts, for example, were a dish that is said to have been quite popular with the Roman aristocracy.