Sophie Turner: traumatic scene

[FreeParking]

Does that matter? If the argument is "Sansa didn't look bothered by LF kissing her, so that proves the showrunners' intent to show that Sansa is OK with it" - it doesn't, because the reason we didn't see her looking bothered is because we didn't see her face at all! We didn't see her not-bothered either. But to prove that she was actually supposed to be OK with it in the show - which would be a big change from the book - you would have to have evidence that Sophie was instructed to look like she is OK with it. That screenstill proves the opposite. I'm pretty sure they don't tell actors: "Play it in three different ways, we'll decide in editing what, if anything, your character is supposed to be feeling in this situation."

Since Sophie and Aidan have read the books it would not surprise me that they played it out like it did on the page first and then were told to alter it however the director wanted. I am also judging the scene by Sansa's reaction after the kiss was broken. Here we clearly see her face. Sansa looks shocked and maybe a little confused, but I don't see any anger or disgust at the creepy situation. She certainly comes across as more neutral toward it in the show. I think it is better to go by what is seen in the scene rather than the stills when it comes to such things. That is my point.

That being said Sansa in the show isn't falling for LF any more than she is in the books. The scene in the following episode where LF goes to Sansa's room and he asks her why she helped him (of her own volition in the show) lays it all out for us. She doesn't say "because you are a good kisser" or anything like that. She says that she believes it benefits her more if he is alive. No love there. Nor do I see her turning into Cersei 2.0. Her positive interactions with Margaery make that a much more likely path for her.

[Annara Snow]

Since Sophie and Aidan have read the books it would not surprise me that they played it out like it did on the page first and then were told to alter it however the director wanted. I am also judging the scene by Sansa's reaction after the kiss was broken. Here we clearly see her face. Sansa looks shocked and maybe a little confused, but I don't see any anger or disgust at the creepy situation. She certainly comes across as more neutral toward it in the show. I think it is better to go by what is seen in the scene rather than the stills when it comes to such things. That is my point.

The still doesn't show anger or disgust, more like, real discomfort and "WTF just happened here" shock. But it certainly doesn't make it look like she's "not bothered by it" and certainly would disprove some viewers' impression that she was enjoying it (?) based on the fact that it went on for a while (because they needed to show Lysa). The scene as it is in the episode simply shows Sansa being really surprised, and displaying no other emotion whatsoever. She doesn't protest as she does in the book, and LF doesn't get to follow it up by becoming even more sexually aggressive, until she's pleading for him to stop. That was a pretty big change. (Possibly to make their relationship at this point less antagonistic and creepy and make people wonder what she would do, or make it more believable that she would save him, which would have been harder to believe if it had been as rapey as in the books? Although at this point it seems that there's a pattern of the show smoothing over Sansa's relationships with everyone who's not Joffrey, Lysa, Meryn Trant or random KL rioter. Even Cersei was less awful to her.)

The problem is, apparently, that there are quite a few viewers whose reaction to seeing a kiss scene in which the female is displaying no emotion, is to conclude that she's into it, wanting it or approving of it. Maybe bad directing of kissing and sex scenes, in GoT and not just in GoT, is to blame. Look at the Sam/Gilly kiss scene in Watchers, if you didn't know their relationship, would you really be able to tell if they were into it? And the Cersei/Jaime scene showed that making a distinction between consensual and non-consensual scenes is really not the strong suit of at least some of the directors.

That being said Sansa in the show isn't falling for LF any more than she is in the books. The scene in the following episode where LF goes to Sansa's room and he asks her why she helped him (of her own volition in the show) lays it all out for us. She doesn't say "because you are a good kisser" or anything like that. She says that she believes it benefits her more if he is alive. No love there. Nor do I see her turning into Cersei 2.0. Her positive interactions with Margaery make that a much more likely path for her.

I agree with that completely.

[juanml82]

The problem is, apparently, that there are quite a few viewers whose reaction to seeing a kiss scene in which the female is displaying no emotion, is to conclude that she's into it, wanting it or approving of it. Maybe bad directing of kissing and sex scenes, in GoT and not just in GoT, is to blame. Look at the Sam/Gilly kiss scene in Watchers, if you didn't know their relationship, would you really be able to tell if they were into it? And the Cersei/Jaime scene showed that making a distinction between consensual and non-consensual scenes is really not the strong suit of at least some of the directors.

I agree with that completely.

Or some people believe a girl would quickly pull out of a kiss she doesn't want - but, as you said, they needed the kiss to last so they could show Lysa watching.

[FreeParking]

Regarding the Sam/Gilly kiss scene. Here is an interview from Hannah Murray that discusses that among other things. http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/2014/6/8/hannah-murray-discusses-gilly-and-sams-big-moment

[thehandwipes]

cast interviews are designed to hype interest, the scene might be nothing. It could be spoilers on the Un-kiss or Robin trying unsuccessfully to breast feed from Sansa like he did in the book. He gets a smack, the audience gets a laugh, and we find out after the season is over that's the scene she was referring to. Sophie is still underage, I believe.

[Beric175]

I mean we all thought that Creepyfinger would make a move at some point...

[Ghosts Lunch]

I mean we all thought that Creepyfinger would make a move at some point...

Lol

Never heard Creepyfinger before

[Ghosts Lunch]

:agree: Sansa using sex to manipulate Littlefinger will be for me the biggest let down ever. I want the books to show that girls can accomplishe things without using sex or "acting like a westerosi man" (= martial skills --- > Arya, Brienne, Asha...) and that Cersei was wrong.

I don't agree with people who thinks that Sansa is going to copy Cersei.

Yeah there's a problem with society in general that seem to think "equality = women have to be empowered via becoming action heroes"

As I've said on other threads, I am hoping Margaery becomes the role model, and it is a more street smart version of the exact qualities everyone has slagged and derided Sansa for that she rises to power

Eg this would be useful to explore the merits of Gandhi/Dalai Lama type figures for lack of a better example, but in this case she is seen as a charismatic gentle mother figure for firstly Robin/Robert which inspires the masses, just think of her learning Margaery's charitable workin KL but applied to the ravaged Riverlands

Everyone slags her off but forget that she is grown into the epitome of what a "good Lady" is for the times. How ironic then that the epitome of what a good female character is in modern day Hollywood I'd perhaps more along the lines of Brienne, who is roundly derided in the world of ASOIF

She has obviously been naive in the past but I hope they explore the power to be found in gentleness through her, just look what she did to the Hound (the impact her mother song had on home specially), the guy derides Knights and the concept of chivalry but she turns him to a chivalrous direction and probably set him on the road to peace and healing on the QI

I want Sansa to become like Olenna and NOT like Arianne or Cersei.

Hopefully more like Margaery (see above)

TV!Olenna banged her husband into marrying her, so she's not really a great counter-example.

Lol, another TV show distortion,

Im terrified D and D are going to take away the complexity of Dorne and just make them all like the Martells. I really do not want a Why are the Daynes and Yronwoods white? Discussion. I feel even we get carried away with the liberal Rhyonar influence and ignore the more mainstream Westerosi Dornish.

Yeah same here, they'll probably butcher it though

The time has come (and so has Littlefinger).

Haha, Creepyfinger reveals himself....

Seriously though I REALLY hope they don't lack the imagination to go down some kind of attempted rape path, it was bad enough at the end of last season

[mediterraneo]

Well, i don't believe that any murder, even if made by Sansa, or any other victimization or sexual victimization of Sansa would be shockful at this point, for the crew or the viewers.

Sansa already suffered sexual humiliations, public naked beatings, and the attempted rape on her was very graphical.

Another attempted rape would be a repetition. A completed rape, by Baelish or anybody else, would add, but add little shock value. The possibility of it was already on the table since a lot.

Talking of murders, it wouldn't be the first time someone is murdered and it would not be that shocking. Younger girls, and younger Stark girls already cold blodedly killed and left die lots of people. Sansa for the moment also lacks, as does Baelish, good reasons to kill anybody, too.

If I am right, and it isn't yet another sexual violence on Sansa, nor any simple murder...
Then the shocking thing must be some creepy consensual sexual activity by Sansa.

It will be creepy because of either or more probably both of her partner's identity and her reasons to indulge in it.

I'll not indulge in creepy, highly speculative details, but I feel that this is the direction events will take.

Sansa's path was never an easy one. She will have to face creepy dilemmas, and make creepy choices, before the end.

[juanml82]

Well, i don't believe that any murder, even if made by Sansa, or any other victimization or sexual victimization of Sansa would be shockful at this point, for the crew or the viewers.

Sansa already suffered sexual humiliations, public naked beatings, and the attempted rape on her was very graphical.

Another attempted rape would be a repetition. A completed rape, by Baelish or anybody else, would add, but add little shock value. The possibility of it was already on the table since a lot.

Talking of murders, it wouldn't be the first time someone is murdered and it would not be that shocking. Younger girls, and younger Stark girls already cold blodedly killed and left die lots of people. Sansa for the moment also lacks, as does Baelish, good reasons to kill anybody, too.

If I am right, and it isn't yet another sexual violence on Sansa, nor any simple murder...

Then the shocking thing must be some creepy consensual sexual activity by Sansa.

It will be creepy because of either or more probably both of her partner's identity and her reasons to indulge in it.

I'll not indulge in creepy, highly speculative details, but I feel that this is the direction events will take.

Sansa's path was never an easy one. She will have to face creepy dilemmas, and make creepy choices, before the end.

Remember it's not "shocking" per se. It's something that was traumatic for the film crew on set. So stuff that could be shocking or controversial in context or after postproduction (say, something like the descend from the Eyre, which wouldn't be shot at an actual cliff) probably won't do it. The scene itself, as played by the actors involved, has to be traumatic. And it has to be traumatic for people who aren't constrained at seeing through the camera lens - I doubt her attempted gang rape during the riots, or the follow up nightmare, were traumatic for the film crew.

EDIT: The crew wouldn't be traumatized by watching actors play a consensual sex scene, even if it's shocking in the overall narrative. Violent rape in itself might not do it either - the guys watching on set are experienced professionals, after all. So whatever it is, I think it has to have strong emotions performed on the set, and probably violence. It may include sex, but IMHO the scene itself would have to be performed in a very emotional and fucked up way for it to be traumatic to the crew.

[Annara Snow]

Well, i don't believe that any murder, even if made by Sansa, or any other victimization or sexual victimization of Sansa would be shockful at this point, for the crew or the viewers.

Sansa already suffered sexual humiliations, public naked beatings, and the attempted rape on her was very graphical.

Another attempted rape would be a repetition. A completed rape, by Baelish or anybody else, would add, but add little shock value. The possibility of it was already on the table since a lot.

Talking of murders, it wouldn't be the first time someone is murdered and it would not be that shocking. Younger girls, and younger Stark girls already cold blodedly killed and left die lots of people. Sansa for the moment also lacks, as does Baelish, good reasons to kill anybody, too.

If I am right, and it isn't yet another sexual violence on Sansa, nor any simple murder...

Then the shocking thing must be some creepy consensual sexual activity by Sansa.

It will be creepy because of either or more probably both of her partner's identity and her reasons to indulge in it.

I'll not indulge in creepy, highly speculative details, but I feel that this is the direction events will take.

Sansa's path was never an easy one. She will have to face creepy dilemmas, and make creepy choices, before the end.

She never said that the scene was "creepy" or "shocking".

She said it was "traumatic" and that even the crew had a hard time watching it.

Do you think of consensual sex as something that's highly traumatic, and that the filming crew - who films scenes like the Red Wedding or the scenes at Craster's Keep - would find it hard to watch a consensual sex scene?

[Annara Snow]

Everyone slags her off but forget that she is grown into the epitome of what a "good Lady" is for the times. How ironic then that the epitome of what a good female character is in modern day Hollywood I'd perhaps more along the lines of Brienne, who is roundly derided in the world of ASOIF

Brienne is not modern day Hollywood's idea of a good female character. Modern Hollywood loves women warriors, but only if they are conventionally beautiful, hot and dressed in sexy revealing clothes (and usually don't look like they could really wield a sword IRL). Brienne is nothing like that. In addition, she is vulnerable, stubborn and honorable and goes through all kind of abusive situations that a woman in that kind of society who challenged the traditional roles realistically would face. She is the subversion of that type of "strong female characer " that we often see in Hollywood movies.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I find it really annoying that whenever something traumatic or controversial is mentioned in relation to Sansa, everyone always starts talking about rape. Or, at best, Sansa prostituting herself to a guy who's practically kidnapped her. If you heard something about a traumatic or controversial scene involving Jon or Tyrion or Jaime, I'm sure that people's first thought wouldn't be: "oh, he's going to get raped! Or maybe he'll blow someone to get out of a bad situation!" :rolleyes:

It always boggles my mind aswell.

[zaphodbrx]

I find it really annoying that whenever something traumatic or controversial is mentioned in relation to Sansa, everyone always starts talking about rape. Or, at best, Sansa prostituting herself to a guy who's practically kidnapped her. If you heard something about a traumatic or controversial scene involving Jon or Tyrion or Jaime, I'm sure that people's first thought wouldn't be: "oh, he's going to get raped! Or maybe he'll blow someone to get out of a bad situation!" :rolleyes:

D & D don't share your views on female characters- their characterization in the show is entirely related to sex or rape ( or violence in some cases like Yara, Brienne, Arya ). Or 'motherhood', like Catelyn was dumbed down to a generic 'mother' figure.

Therefore anything traumatic happening with Sansa WILL be related to sex or rape or violence. There is no reason to think otherwise. D & D are very conventional and don't think outside the box in the slightest.

[Annara Snow]

D & D don't share your views on female characters- their characterization in the show is entirely related to sex or rape ( or violence in some cases like Yara, Brienne, Arya ). Or 'motherhood', like Catelyn was dumbed down to a generic 'mother' figure.

Therefore anything traumatic happening with Sansa WILL be related to sex or rape or violence. There is no reason to think otherwise. D & D are very conventional and don't think outside the box in the slightest.

True enough, but that only applies under the assumption that the traumatic scene is something D&D made up, rather than something from TWOW that they know about. And there's no evidence that this is the case.

Now, would they make up a traumatic scene? Sure. But only one that ultimately changes nothing in the arc. I don't doubt they could invent an attempted rape, or some other kind of physical assault for Sansa; they've done it before (including an entirely made-up rape threat against Meera, and umping up Sansa's attempted rape in season 2), and one could see the season 2 scene and possibly any other future made-up AR scene as making up for other rapey moments that were removed from the show, such as Marillion's sexual assault. They've also had made-up sex for supporting characters (Loras, Osha). But that sex didn't change anything in character's plots (even though it may have changed the characterization in the eyes of the viewers, which D&D don't seem too bothered about). But an actual rape, or D&D-made up sex that Sansa would engage in? No. I don't think D&D would make something like that up - they are trying to stick to the book plots for the major characters, which Sansa is, and a rape or sex that doesn't happen in the book would change her overall plot in a big way.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Brienne is not modern day Hollywood's idea of a good female character. Modern Hollywood loves women warriors, but only if they are conventionally beautiful, hot and dressed in sexy revealing clothes (and usually don't look like they could really wield a sword IRL). Brienne is nothing like that. In addition, she is vulnerable, stubborn and honorable and goes through all kind of abusive situations that a woman in that kind of society who challenged the traditional roles realistically would face. She is the subversion of that type of "strong female characer " that we often see in Hollywood movies.

Yeah you might be right, I would still say she is closer than Sansa is though, and Brienne does seem to be forming into a kind of fan favourite from what I can see

I reckon the traumatic scene would have to be Sansa playing LS and hanging Brienne and Pod or something (perhaps Marillion will make a reappearance), I don't think it is sexual. As others have said the shows already been there in season 2 plus it makes no sense in the narrative as also already said, Sansa, Littlefinger et al know it is highly important politically to keep her Maidenhead intact for annullment of marriage to Tyrion reasons etc etc as

Lol, this could be like Lena Headley and the Heart Stones again and a misdirect, probably nothing majorly traumatic in GoT terms at all

[zaphodbrx]

It could be that the traumatic moment, probably sex or rape or violence, is done not against Sansa, but done by Sansa or helped by Sansa ( similar to Myranda/Bolton arc ). Remember that in the show, Sansa has gone over to the dark side. So it's plenty possible.

[voodooqueen126]

Didn't GRRM say that he would never write a POV rape scene?? I am not sure??

[Gregor Clegane's head]

It could be that the traumatic moment, probably sex or rape or violence, is done not against Sansa, but done by Sansa or helped by Sansa ( similar to Myranda/Bolton arc ). Remember that in the show, Sansa has gone over to the dark side. So it's plenty possible.

D&D wouldn't make Sansa go from being sad over Dontos to raping/ helping someone rape someone else in a course of a few months, changing your clothes isn't going to the dark side.

[Annara Snow]

It could be that the traumatic moment, probably sex or rape or violence, is done not against Sansa, but done by Sansa or helped by Sansa ( similar to Myranda/Bolton arc ). Remember that in the show, Sansa has gone over to the dark side. So it's plenty possible.

She has gone over to the dark side?! When? What did she do? Who did she murder? Did she help torture or rape someone?

Right, she did none of these things. She... wore a black dress with feathers?! Which looks vaguely Goth if you want to be totally anachronistic... so she's evil, because Goths are evil? Wearing black clothes makes you evil? Or something? :rolleyes:

Oh, and here is what the costume designer, Michelle Clapton, has to say about the dress:

http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/12/style-to-expect-when-game-of-thrones-returns.html

Sansa’s makeover at the end of season four was also about using found materials — in her case, feathers from message-bearing ravens, to deliver her own message about a change in personality. “We’ve always known that Sansa makes her own clothes, so it was a very deliberate decision of hers, to change and say, ‘I’m not going to be pushed around. I’m going to take charge.’” Clapton drew our attention to Sansa’s necklace, which has a long spike at the end. Because Arya has her Needle, this is Sansa’s Needle. “It’s her chance to take control,” Clapton said. “When she comes down the stairs, she’s playing with it like, ‘This is me, taking control of this situation.’”

Fits with the rising music in the scene and the fact that this track is called "Take Charge of Your Life" on the soundtrack.

See, nothing there about becoming evil.