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Speculating about Septon Barth's notions


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Speculating about Septon Barth's notions: Part 1

I strongly believe he is one of the most trustworthy sources, alongside Old Nan and Mushroom. Yandel makes quite a few references to his work, and even though he respects the man, he always takes the opposite position. The “anti-magic” bias is so obvious in the book that every time he discredits magical explanations I tend to side with the “pro-magic” explanation.

What are the implications of assuming everything Barth says is true, or at least partially true?

Raven speech:

Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth’s Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth that the children of the forest could speak with ravens and could make them repeat their words. According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed, in degraded form, down to the maesters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens … but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health.

Ravens are amongst the cleverest of birds, but they are no wiser than infant children, and considerably less capable of true speech, whatever Septon Barth might have believed. A few maesters, devoted to the link of Valyrian steel, have argued that Barth was correct, but not a one has been able to prove his claims regarding speech between men and ravens.

This one is pretty much confirmed in ADWD:

Then he realized he was not alone.

“Someone else was in the raven,” he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. “Some girl. I felt her.”

“A woman, of those who sing the song of earth,” his teacher said. “Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.”

“Do all the birds have singers in them?”

“All,” Lord Brynden said. “It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin.”

Old Nan had told him the same story once,

Notice the word play. Yandel says that ravens are not wiser than “infant children”.. and Bloodraven confirms every raven has a singer inside, also known as “children".

The implications are probably that Bran will learn the raven speech and pass on some vital information using that skill.

Irregular Seasons:

Though the Citadel has long sought to learn the manner by which it may predict the length and change of seasons, all efforts have been confounded. Septon Barth appeared to argue, in a fragmentary treatise, that the inconstancy of the seasons was a matter of magical art rather than trustworthy knowledge. Maester Nicol’s The Measure of the Daysotherwise a laudable work containing much of use—seems influenced by this argument. Based upon his work on the movement of stars in the firmament, Nicol argues unconvincingly that the seasons might once have been of a regular length, determined solely by the way in which the globe faces the sun in its heavenly course. The notion behind it seems true enough—that the lengthening and shortening of days, if more regular, would have led to more regular seasons—but he could find no evidence that such was ever the case, beyond the most ancient of tales.

Again yandel denies Barth´s notions, by saying that Nicol´s work, which is influenced by Barth, is an “otherwise laudable work”.

Nicol thinks seasons were regular once, based on ancient tales. Barth thinks that some magical art could have triggered this irregularity in seasons. And maybe the Long night?

My guess would be that after the War for dawn, this eternal winter was defeated, but not totally.. therefore Planetos have had since then irregular seasons. Notice that YiTi´s story about the Long night have certain paralelisms:

In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

Yet the Great Empire of the Dawn was not reborn, for the restored world was a broken place where every tribe of men went its own way, fearful of all the others, and war and lust and murder endured, even to our present day. Or so the men and women of the Further East believe.

This Long night, triggered by the Blood Betrayal, was defeated, but the world never went back to the Golden age of the Great Empire of Dawn. It never trully recovered. Extrapolating these social issues to global seaons, the same could have happened, if Nicole is right.

And if some magical event is behind the strange planetos seasons, then that event can be unmade right?

I think the implications are that when the War for Dawn 2.0 is won, seasons will be regular once more.

The Doom of Valyria and Lannister Gold:

To this day, no one knows what caused the Doom. Most say that it was a natural cataclysm—a catastrophic explosion caused by the eruption of all Fourteen Flames together. Some septons, less wise, claim that the Valyrians brought the disaster on themselves for their promiscuous belief in a hundred gods and more, and in their godlessness they delved too deep and unleashed the fires of the Seven hells on the Freehold. A handful of maesters, influenced by fragments of the work of Septon Barth, hold that Valyria had used spells to tame the Fourteen Flames for thousands of years, that their ceaseless hunger for slaves and wealth was as much to sustain these spells as to expand their power, and that when at last those spells faltered, the cataclysm became inevitable.

Of these, some argue that it was the curse of Garin the Great at last coming to fruition. Others speak of the priests of R’hllor calling down the fire of their god in queer rituals. Some, wedding the fanciful notion of Valyrian magic to the reality of the ambitious great houses of Valyria, have argued that it was the constant whirl of conflict and deception amongst the great houses that might have led to the assassinations of too many of the reputed mages who renewed and maintained the rituals that banked the fires of the Fourteen Flames.

The consensus of the Citadel about a natural cataclysmic event is probably Bs, especially taking into consideration the lasting effects of the Doom, which is said to still hold sway in Valyria, and the monstrosities that still live there. These facts seem to point to a magical cause. Septons being religious fanatics don´t even require a response.

Barth thinks that the destabilization of the spells that the Valyrian sorcerers used to tame the fires was the cause of the Doom. This one is interesting given that some other theories say that the dispute between the great houses of Valyria led to a series of assassinations of the mages that sustained the spells that Barth talks about.

In AFFC, the faceless men claim to be responsible of the Doom:

Arya drew back from him. “He killed the slave?” That did not sound right. “He should have killed the masters!

“He would bring the gift to them as well . . . but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one.” He cocked his head. “

We should assume that if indeed the Faceless men were behind the Doom of Valyria, then they did it by killing the mages that kept the spells to tame the fourteen fires.

Did they do this on their own agenda or were they paid by some one?

Barth has more to say:

The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold’s sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them. Archmaester Perestan has put forward a different, more plausible speculation, suggesting that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as Oldtown but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that caused them to shun all of Westeros thereafter.

Notice its the Freeholds sorcerers that fear the Gold of Casterly Rock. This points to the mage assassination plot.

Now we can assume someone paid gold to the FM to cause the Doom. Lannister gold “destroyed Valyria”. Of course this doens´t mean House Lannister wanted the Doom, but rather than gold from the mines of Casterly Rock was used to pay for this service. But then again, if Valyria never conquered the westerlands, neither traded with them, for fear, how does this reconcile with the theory that it was some Great House of Valyria that wanted and paid for this genocide?

We have one instance of a big transfer of gold:

The sword Brightroar came into the possession of the Lannister kings in the century before the Doom, and it is said that the weight of gold they paid for it would have been enough to raise an army. But it was lost little more than a century later, when Tommen II carried it with him when he sailed with his great fleet to ruined Valyria, with the intention of plundering the wealth and sorcery he was sure still remained. The fleet never returned, nor Tommen, nor Brightroar.

1) Ambitious Valyrian house wants to destroy its opponents

2) Sells Valyrian sword to house Lannister for a huge amount of gold

3) Uses that gold to contract the Faceless man to carry a series of assassinations of the mages that kept the fourteen fires under control

4) Boom

Of course this makes no sense, if indeed we are talking about a Valyrian house, then it committed suicide. Unless they were spared by the Doom.

Very few dragonlords made it out.

Implications: Did the Targaryens pay for the Doom of Valyria?

After all, they were a minor dragonrider house, therefore they didn´t have too much to lose. They sold everything. They had enemies in Valyria. And the Doom left them as the sole dragonlords in the entire world, a power they would later use to carve their own kingdom. They were clearly the winners of the Doom.

The Doom of Men:

If indeed this first fortress (Hightower) is Valyrian, it suggests that the dragonlords came to Westeros thousands of years before they carved out their outpost on Dragonstone, long before the coming of the Andals, or even the First Men. If so, did they come seeking trade? Were they slavers, mayhaps seeking after giants? Did they seek to learn the magic of the children of the forest, with their greenseers and their weirwoods? Or was there some darker purpose?

Such questions abound even to this day. Before the Doom of Valyria, maesters and archmaesters oft traveled to the Freehold in search of answers, but none were ever found. Septon Barth’s claim that the Valyrians came to Westeros because their priests prophesied that the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea can safely be dismissed as nonsense, as can many of Barth’s queerer beliefs and suppositions.

These quote speculates about the origins of the Hightower, which many believe to be dragonstone, therefore it´s origin must be (?) Valyrian. If it is, it means that the Valyrians did travel to westeros.

Barth tells that the Valyrians traveled because they thought that the Doom of Men would come from the lands beyond the narrow sea. Notice that this is the Doom of Men, not the Doom of Valyria.

It sounds like the Others.

Implications: If the Doom of men will “came out of the land beyond the narrow sea”, does this mean the Others will invade Essos as well?

For this to happen oceans will have to freeze don’t they?

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Bloody fantastic post.

Blood betrayal... trying to find some connection between White Walkers, Children and First Men that indicates a blood betrayal. The Others origins are still a mystery, but Michelle Clapton (GoT costume designer extraordinaire) said that their outfits are based on an ancient race (sea race?). Guest right breaking is a blood betrayal. The Pact of FM and Children, is that guest right? Someone broke the Pact and thus the Others came down? The blood betrayal is very interesting, but sorry for rambling :P

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Very interesting post. I agree with pretty much all of your conclusions/implications except one:



I took the account of the Valyrian sorcerers' prophecy that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them as another patently tricky prophecy which was, albeit rather simply, realized by Aerys opening the gates to Tywin (as in destroying the last Valyrian dynasty). Admittedly, though, your speculation is a far more specified, and intriguing, realization of the prophecy.


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We can dismiss Mushroom’s claim in his Testimony that the dragon Vermax left a clutch of eggs somewhere in the depths of Winterfell’s crypts, where the waters of the hot springs run close to the walls, while his rider treated with Cregan Stark at the start of the Dance of the Dragons. As Archmaester Gyldayn notes in his fragmentary history, there is no record that Vermax ever laid so much as a single egg, suggesting the dragon was male. The belief that dragons could change sex at need is erroneous, according to Maester Anson’s Truth, rooted in a misunderstanding of the esoteric metaphor that Barth preferred when discussing the higher mysteries.



I think this is a very important point. Dragons might or might not be hermaphrodites but Barth was generally using esoteric metaphors.



In Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts, this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon’s Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power.



I am definitely in for this theory. Valyrian dragons were created like this. But I think there were other races of dragons that existed before the Valyrian dragons.



An account by Archmaester Marwyn confirms reports that no man rides in Asshai, be he warrior, merchant, or prince. There are no horses in Asshai, no elephants, no mules, no donkeys, no zorses, no camels, no dogs. Such beasts, when brought there by ship, soon die. The malign influence of the Ash and its polluted waters have been implicated, as it is well understood from Harmon’s On Miasmas that animals are more sensitive to the foulness exuded by such waters, even without drinking them. Septon Barth’s writings speculate more wildly, referring to the higher mysteries with little evidence.



It is a pity why Yandel did not even mention those “wild speculations”. They must be highly controversial and absolutely true. Such a loss for us.


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The problem with the theory that the Valyrians created their dragons artificially is that there is no way to prove now that the dragon fossils in Westeros are not merely wyvern remains, rather than fire-breeding dragons...



If the Valyrians did indeed create their dragons, those may very well have been the first dragons, despite the claims of the Asshai'i and others.



The idea that the Long Night killed off all the naturally occurring dragons is too much a stretch, in my opinion, as it is sort of confirmed that the southern reaches of the world were somewhat less affected by the Long Night than the northern reaches (that's confirmed by the fact that the Rhoyne was only frozen up to the mouth of Selhoru, not down until its own mouth).



How could the 'natural dragons' in the Lands of the Long Summer, Asshai, Sothoryos (if dragons lived there), or in Dorne/the Reach be killed by the cold?



I'd also not take Yandel's claim at face value that Barth used 'esoteric metaphors'. We don't even know whether Yandel even read Barth's surviving fragments firsthand, or whether his knowledge of him comes from other works discussing Barth's theories - but even if Yandel is familiar with Barth, he is biased against him when Barth discusses magic (his praise for Barth seems to come from the fact that Barth did not only write on magic, but on various topics, and he excelled in pretty much everything he did), and this could very well be the reason why he dismisses his writings as 'esoteric metaphors', especially if we keep in mind that Yandel most certainly is not expert in the traditions of the higher mysteries.


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Interesting post, and I tend to agree that Barth was right in most cases.



If we subscribe the idea that the existence of dragons is linked to the magic, that may explain why Barth is so discredited nowadays. In Barth's times, the dragons were freely procreating and then the magic would be at its height. However, after the Dance, Barth experiments would be impossible to reproduce and many maesters may conclude that he was wrong.




Btw, the four legged dragons at the blason of the Atranta's Vances lends credit to the idea the once there were four legged dragons in Westeros.


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We can dismiss Mushroom’s claim in his Testimony that the dragon Vermax left a clutch of eggs somewhere in the depths of Winterfell’s crypts, where the waters of the hot springs run close to the walls, while his rider treated with Cregan Stark at the start of the Dance of the Dragons. As Archmaester Gyldayn notes in his fragmentary history, there is no record that Vermax ever laid so much as a single egg, suggesting the dragon was male. The belief that dragons could change sex at need is erroneous, according to Maester Anson’s Truth, rooted in a misunderstanding of the esoteric metaphor that Barth preferred when discussing the higher mysteries.

I think this is a very important point. Dragons might or might not be hermaphrodites but Barth was generally using esoteric metaphors.

In Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts, this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon’s Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power.

I am definitely in for this theory. Valyrian dragons were created like this. But I think there were other races of dragons that existed before the Valyrian dragons.

An account by Archmaester Marwyn confirms reports that no man rides in Asshai, be he warrior, merchant, or prince. There are no horses in Asshai, no elephants, no mules, no donkeys, no zorses, no camels, no dogs. Such beasts, when brought there by ship, soon die. The malign influence of the Ash and its polluted waters have been implicated, as it is well understood from Harmon’s On Miasmas that animals are more sensitive to the foulness exuded by such waters, even without drinking them. Septon Barth’s writings speculate more wildly, referring to the higher mysteries with little evidence.

It is a pity why Yandel did not even mention those “wild speculations”. They must be highly controversial and absolutely true. Such a loss for us.

crackpot theory :

How about, proto-Asshaií created dragons from Wyverns and Firewyrms instead of valyrians?

After all, for VAlyrians to accomplish that, they would still need to capture a Wyvern, which only live in Sothroyos.. they were breeding sheep at that point.

instead we do know proto-asshaii had at least one colony in Yeen.

Maesters yendal question as to why they didn´t conquer the world would still a valid point if i am correct. My guess would be that they never learned to control them. A failed experiment if you will. Dragons spread all over the world, till they were wiped out by the Long Night.

Only till the Valyrians found the last ones in the fourteen fires and their contribution was to finally tame them.

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Great post, I agree with you 100%.

That said, I don't believe Mushroom is all that reliable myself; that is, at least reliable enough to be put on the same league as Barths and Old Nan.

he exagerates his claims. Like saying he was one of Rhaenyras sexual partners.. but the essence of his story is the right one.

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The problem with the theory that the Valyrians created their dragons artificially is that there is no way to prove now that the dragon fossils in Westeros are not merely wyvern remains, rather than fire-breeding dragons...

I think if there was a different species of dragons that were skinchanged by the CotF, Bran could find out. There was a room full of giant bat bones hanging in one of those caves. In the dragontamer chapter, Viserion was likened to a giant bat hanging on the ceiling.

I am not sure whether the original dragons breathe fire or not. Probably they didnot. But the dragon used by the LH did breathe fire. Perhaps that one was a magical construct too, the first of its kind.

It is now becoming clearer that the Valyrias didnot pop out to existence 5000 years ago. More like they started to grow to power after the LN 8000 years ago. And there is even a proto-Valyrian race that visited Westeros even before the First Men came.

How could the 'natural dragons' in the Lands of the Long Summer, Asshai, Sothoryos (if dragons lived there), or in Dorne/the Reach be killed by the cold?

The dragons derive power from the sun. The legend says that they drank the fire of the sun. It is said that the sun appears dim even at noon in Asshai, as if the black stones drink the sunlight. Same thing was observed in House of the Undying.

Now we know that there are legends claiming that the sun was blocked during the LN. Perhaps that was the main reason why the natural dragons died out.

We know that the dragons bred in Dragonpit were not as big as free dragons. Perhaps they didnot get enough sunlight. Might be genetical but free Drogon grew much bigger than Vis and Rhae.

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I am not sure whether the original dragons breathe fire or not. Probably they didnot. But the dragon used by the LH did breathe fire. Perhaps that one was a magical construct too, the first of its kind.

Just curious, where do you get such certainty about the LH and a dragon? Old Nan's story is cut off and I don't remember any other sources on this.

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crackpot theory :

How about, proto-Asshaií created dragons from Wyverns and Firewyrms instead of valyrians?

After all, for VAlyrians to accomplish that, they would still need to capture a Wyvern, which only live in Sothroyos.. they were breeding sheep at that point.

instead we do know proto-asshaii had at least one colony in Yeen.

Maesters yendal question as to why they didn´t conquer the world would still a valid point if i am correct. My guess would be that they never learned to control them. A failed experiment if you will. Dragons spread all over the world, till they were wiped out by the Long Night.

Only till the Valyrians found the last ones in the fourteen fires and their contribution was to finally tame them.

I think the Asshai dragons were creatures of shadow. They were shadow dragons. I think Mel will create one when Dany returns and Stannis needs a dragon to face her.

Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them.

I think it requires enormous sacrifice to cast these shadows and they might not be as controllable as the Valyrian dragons. That is why the Asshai could never conquer the world.

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Just curious, where do you get such certainty about the LH and a dragon? Old Nan's story is cut off and I don't remember any other sources on this.

“I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.”

A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.

The man wore the mask of a Brazen Beast, the fearsome likeness of a tiger. As he dropped his weapon to try and pry apart Viserion’s jaws, flame gouted from the tiger’s mouth. The man’s eyes burst with soft popping sounds, and the brass around them began to run.

“When the dragons come,” he shrieked, “your flesh will burn and blister and turn to ash. Your wives will dance in gowns of fire, shrieking as they burn, lewd and naked underneath the flames. And you shall see your little children weeping, weeping till their eyes do melt and slide like jelly down their faces, till their pink flesh falls black and crackling from their bones.

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Well, Votar talks about Azor Ahai and Lightbringer. He does not talk about a dragon and the Last Hero.

Because AA and the Lightbringer legend was forged some millennias after the LH saved the the world. By the time this tale reached East, it was heavily disfigured.

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I think the Asshai dragons were creatures of shadow. They were shadow dragons. I think Mel will create one when Dany returns and Stannis needs a dragon to face her.

Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them.

I think it requires enormous sacrifice to cast these shadows and they might not be as controllable as the Valyrian dragons. That is why the Asshai could never conquer the world.

thats certainly interesting (i also believe Melisandre will cast a shadow dragon), but if so, then you must explain all these dragonbones from the Dawn Age.

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That's not what I'm talking about. I was referring to you citing stuff describing people being burned by dragonfire and the heat of a magical sword without providing any evidence that there is a connection between the Last Hero and Azor Ahai. Just claiming that this is the case doesn't make it so.


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That's not what I'm talking about. I was referring to you citing stuff describing people being burned by dragonfire and the heat of a magical sword without providing any evidence that there is a connection between the Last Hero and Azor Ahai. Just claiming that this is the case doesn't make it so.

Both stories are about a hero in a quest to find a weapon to defeat the Long Night.

In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding pale dead horses, and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes, found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through the frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.

Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken those lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods, the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions. For years he searched until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds –

.” He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass dagger Jon had made for him. “I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

“Dragonsteel?” Jon frowned. “Valyrian steel?”

Dragons could have been lightbringer...another possibility is that dragons are lightbringer 2.0, and the Last hero did have a magical sword..

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