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Tyrion and the Weeping Head of His


Roose is Azor Ahai

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Hi everyone, this is my first post, though I have been lurking here for years.



Last night, I was rereading one of the first Tyrion chapters in ADwD (some of those two, when he's travelling with Illyrio), where he sees a weird dream. In this particular dream, Tyrion is fighting against some army led by his father, lord Tywin. In the dream, Tyrion fights at the same side with ser Barristan and Bittersteel, with dragons flying at the background. During the battle, he slays his father without a second thought and crushes Jaime's head and laughs, when his head turns into a smashed potatoes. It isn't until the battle's over, that he realizes that he has two heads and the smaller one is crying.



In that dream, Tyrion was something like a dwarf version of Maelys the Monstrous and he was torn apart by his feelings for Jaime. The other side of him wants to kill him for what he has done to him, and the other one wants to forgive him and be a brother to him once again. Thoughts?


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I think this tied back to the first book of A Song of Ice and Fire because he told Jon that sometimes he think of killing his family, or have thoughts an d dreams of his family dying. Also, this may be foreshadowing the downfall of House Lannister, which Tyrion is already playing a part in. I know that I will take heat for saying this because everyone loves Tyrion, but I think he is exactly what his father told him he was: “You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature. Full of envy, lust, and low cunning.” – Tywin Lannister



And I think Dany will get all her dragons back, and war against Westeros with them. Whether she will lose or not is beyond me, but dragons are like nuclear weapons in Westeros. But what if the White Walkers have spells that can fly in the sky and attack them… dragons had die before by weapons, so a spell may be stronger than a volley of arrows.


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But what if the White Walkers have spells that can fly in the sky and attack them… dragons had die before by weapons, so a spell may be stronger than a volley of arrows.

Maybe they have wight dragons or something like that. I heard a theory a few months back and it said that one dragon flew past the Wall. Also in the World of Ice and Fire, it's revealed that some dragons are still alive. Could it be that one of those dragons is living in some vast place in Westeros or Essos and attacks Dany's dragons? From what I remember, there was some pale leathery shadow flying over Tyrion's head in the Sorrows, could this be a dragon?

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Maybe they have wight dragons or something like that. I heard a theory a few months back and it said that one dragon flew past the Wall. Also in the World of Ice and Fire, it's revealed that some dragons are still alive. Could it be that one of those dragons is living in some vast place in Westeros or Essos and attacks Dany's dragons? From what I remember, there was some pale leathery shadow flying over Tyrion's head in the Sorrows, could this be a dragon?

Probably it’s the ice dragon… I’m sure you heard of that tale while reading ASOIAF

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I think this tied back to the first book of A Song of Ice and Fire because he told Jon that sometimes he think of killing his family, or have thoughts an d dreams of his family dying. Also, this may be foreshadowing the downfall of House Lannister, which Tyrion is already playing a part in. I know that I will take heat for saying this because I everyone loves Tyrion, but I think he is exactly what his father told him he was: “You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature. Full of envy, lust, and low cunning.” – Tywin Lannister

Except for that fact that in my opinion, he is of high cunning. Especially the way he took over King's Landing so quickly as hand.

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I think this more proof of the hated theory that Tyrion is a !@#$%^&* and that his biological father was the Mad King.

Why put Maelys the Monstrous in mind here? The hints are just blatant at this point IMO if one considers all of the evidence together at the same time.

Even if that would be true, what I highly doubt, there's no way to prove it. It's not like Aerys is going to come from the grave and tell Tyrion: "Hey, Imp, you know what? I'm your real father, bye." If someone of Tywin's kid is really Aerys' it's Jaime & Cersei. Ser Barristan reveals that Aerys took some freedoms during Tywin's and Joanna's wedding, so it can't be that he raped Joanna and ten years later Tyrion was born and he is result of this rape.

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Except for that fact that in my opinion, he is of high cunning. Especially the way he took over King's Landing so quickly as hand.

Yea, I agree. I think Tyrion does have a certain high cunning to him. And I hate how the show portrays Tyrion because in the book you can see all his cunning maneuvers. For instance, he visited Shae through a tunnel, and he killed a man because he saw Tyrion with Shae and was planning on blackmailing him at the Royal Feast. The show tries to make Tyrion looks like a hero too much, but in the book he cheated on Sansa with Shae multiple times, and killed Shae because she was in Tywin’s bed… though her testimony may’ve played a part it.

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Maybe they have wight dragons or something like that. I heard a theory a few months back and it said that one dragon flew past the Wall. Also in the World of Ice and Fire, it's revealed that some dragons are still alive. Could it be that one of those dragons is living in some vast place in Westeros or Essos and attacks Dany's dragons? From what I remember, there was some pale leathery shadow flying over Tyrion's head in the Sorrows, could this be a dragon?

Well, we will see about the other dragons and the enormous, gigantic respect to "normal" dragons Ice Dragons that the World of Ice and Fire names.

We should remember that the World is a work from an unreliable source.

"Exactly as any chapter in the books", one could say.

But that would be wrong: "exactly as any chapter in the book where characters relates a second or third hand story" it would be more correct.

Something in the league with "Davos is dead" in a Cersei's chapter.

I mean, we should take the stories of the unexplored glaciers and from Assai under the Shadow with a bit of skepticism, as long as we don't have any confirmation from other sources.

Even the third hand sources the maester from The World of Ice and Fire claims to have are unsure, as he writes.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yea, I agree. I think Tyrion does have a certain high cunning to him. And I hate how the show portrays Tyrion because in the book you can see all his cunning maneuvers. For instance, he visited Shae through a tunnel, and he killed a man because he saw Tyrion with Shae and was planning on blackmailing him at the Royal Feast. The show tries to make Tyrion looks like a hero too much, but in the book he cheated on Sansa with Shae multiple times, and killed Shae because she was in Tywin’s bed… though her testimony may’ve played a part it.

I think he killed her because although not absolutely necessary to her testimony against him, she brought up the "giant of Lannister" line to further humiliate him, and then when he found her in Tywin's bed she tried to get back in his good graces with that same phrase, which was really twisting the knife.

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I think this tied back to the first book of A Song of Ice and Fire because he told Jon that sometimes he think of killing his family, or have thoughts an d dreams of his family dying. Also, this may be foreshadowing the downfall of House Lannister, which Tyrion is already playing a part in. I know that I will take heat for saying this because I ]b]everyone loves Tyrion, but I think he is exactly what his father told him he was: You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature. Full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Tywin Lannister

And I think Dany will get all her dragons back, and war against Westeros with them. Whether she will lose or not is beyond me, but dragons are like nuclear weapons in Westeros. But what if the White Walkers have spells that can fly in the sky and attack them dragons had die before by weapons, so a spell may be stronger than a volley of arrows.

Not everyone... ;)

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House Obama must be fairly new here to have missed all the "Tyrion is an evil rapist/child molester" threads.

Obviously there are some readers that love him, and some readers that seen the show first and perhaps are influenced by Peter Dinklage's portrayal of him. But overall, I think most folk that read the books acknowledge that Tyrion has done some unsavoury stuff. (I like him but I don't for a second believe that he was ever in a relationship with Shae, and think he's a bit delusional when it comes to women.) But the flip side is there are some folk that him out to be a monster at times.

He's a well written, polarising character in many respects.

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Obviously there are some readers that love him, and some readers that seen the show first and perhaps are influenced by Peter Dinklage's portrayal of him. But overall, I think most folk that read the books acknowledge that Tyrion has done some unsavoury stuff. (I like him but I don't for a second believe that he was ever in a relationship with Shae, and think he's a bit delusional when it comes to women.) But the flip side is there are some folk that him out to be a monster at times.

He's a well written, polarising character in many respects.

I completely agree, I love Tyrion’s chapters; in fact, I sometime crave them when I reading another character’s chapter. However, I can see that Tyrion is one of the most “grey” characters in the books, which is why I absolutely enjoy reading his chapters. Jaime is also one of my favorite to read, even though I think he’s less than scum. Tyrion deluded himself in the book into believing that Shae was actually in love with him, which is fact she was everything Tywin said she was, “a whore.” The TV directors of Game of Thrones want to appease the viewers by making Tyrion into an unfairly treated dwarf (which he is), but they conveniently omit the evil he did in order to grabs power.

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Obviously there are some readers that love him, and some readers that seen the show first and perhaps are influenced by Peter Dinklage's portrayal of him. But overall, I think most folk that read the books acknowledge that Tyrion has done some unsavoury stuff. (I like him but I don't for a second believe that he was ever in a relationship with Shae, and think he's a bit delusional when it comes to women.) But the flip side is there are some folk that him out to be a monster at times.

He's a well written, polarising character in many respects.

You mean, only those simple minded show fans like Tyrion?

Meaning that all those book fans who see Tyrion as one of, if not the most interesting character character in the books are kind of simple minded?

That position would be hugely condescending and arrogant, I hope no one would seriously suggest this.

Tyrion is my favorite character because I have read the books several times, he is a unique literary invention and, apart from that, very relatable to me. As adult feminist woman.

I do not think that everybody hates Tyrion. There is only a very vocal minority in these forums who does, here people tend to "hate".

In order to get closer to Tyrion's character it is imo important to see what his role isn the books is, why Martin gave us precisely this character.

Tyrion as literary invention mirrors the complexity of the books in an exemplary manner:

That famous wedding night chapter is one of the best written in the books, it tells us incredibly much about both characters concerned. And in ADWD Martin had to bring Tyrion down to the bottom of moral and real dirt in order to build up, I guess, the character again. This physical and moral lowlevel intends to show us what could become of any character if the signpost is turned only a little bit, every path is open. Tyrion is not automatically set up as hero, as positive identification character, he does not fulfil our desire to see the good guys win easily, no straight stairway to a positive ending that will inevitably happen. Nothing is given here, neither the dark path nor a turn to light.

I believe many posters relate to Tyrion like disappointed lovers. The opposite of love is not indifference but hatred. So the character has disappointed them big time since he was supposed to be the good guy, someone to root for. And then he turned out to be hard to digest, complex and not the morally superior Uncle Tom cripple readers feel morally entitled to love. No poor downtrodden vertically challenged asexual model handicapped with a heart of gold, in the books to sacrifice himself or to promote the one true hero, stepping back into second row whenever the good guys and girls have to shine. Tyrion bites back and with every fiber of his existence he refuses to be reduced to victim. He on some occasions may even become the victimizer but he fights every single moment, no compliant saint accepting his fate.

No, the character develops a life of its own, does not fulfill expectations anymore. Readers have fallen out of love since they bought a good guy and got a personality with many unexpected layers. That's not what they have emotionally invested in and they feel tricked and betrayed instead of seeing that they got so much more depth and complexity for their emotional investment.

The author very consciously walks the thin line betwen making us like or despise exactly this character, he does that with many other protagonists, leading them into or out of morally conflicting situations to make judgement difficult for us: Dany first of all but as well Theon or Sansa e.g. In Tyrion's case this is even more carefully orchestrated: we have too much pity with the disinherited dwarf? Let him marry Sansa! We are disappointed now? Let him not rape her! He has been sentenced to death? Let him commit double murder! Poor homeless exiled? Let him threaten a slave! Let the rich upperclass brat become a slave himself, he had it coming....etc... There is a deliberate pattern behind this, we are carefully manipulated into an emotional rollercoaster ride with the character Tyrion more than with others.

So it is somewhat pointless to paint Tyrion dark or to wash him white since we are supposed to have very conflicting feelings about that hugely fascinating character even more than about most other characters, Martin wants us to develop strong emotions here. The author has cleverly calculated the emotional swing of some readers, fully knowing what he does and that some more swings will follow.

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You mean, only those simple minded show fans like Tyrion?

Meaning that all those book fans who see Tyrion as one of, if not the most interesting character character in the books are kind of simple minded?

That position would be hugely condescending and arrogant, I hope no one would seriously suggest this.

Tyrion is my favorite character because I have read the books several times, he is a unique literary invention and, apart from that, very relatable to me. As adult feminist woman.

I do not think that everybody hates Tyrion. There is only a very vocal minority in these forums who does, here people tend to "hate".

In order to get closer to Tyrion's character it is imo important to see what his role isn the books is, why Martin gave us precisely this character.

Tyrion as literary invention mirrors the complexity of the books in an exemplary manner:

That famous wedding night chapter is one of the best written in the books, it tells us incredibly much about both characters concerned. And in ADWD Martin had to bring Tyrion down to the bottom of moral and real dirt in order to build up, I guess, the character again. This physical and moral lowlevel intends to show us what could become of any character if the signpost is turned only a little bit, every path is open. Tyrion is not automatically set up as hero, as positive identification character, he does not fulfil our desire to see the good guys win easily, no straight stairway to a positive ending that will inevitably happen. Nothing is given here, neither the dark path nor a turn to light.

I believe many posters relate to Tyrion like disappointed lovers. The opposite of love is not indifference but hatred. So the character has disappointed them big time since he was supposed to be the good guy, someone to root for. And then he turned out to be hard to digest, complex and not the morally superior Uncle Tom cripple readers feel morally entitled to love. No poor downtrodden vertically challenged asexual model handicapped with a heart of gold, in the books to sacrifice himself or to promote the one true hero, stepping back into second row whenever the good guys and girls have to shine. Tyrion bites back and with every fiber of his existence he refuses to be reduced to victim. He on some occasions may even become the victimizer but he fights every single moment, no compliant saint accepting his fate.

No, the character develops a life of its own, does not fulfill expectations anymore. Readers have fallen out of love since they bought a good guy and got a personality with many unexpected layers. That's not what they have emotionally invested in and they feel tricked and betrayed instead of seeing that they got so much more depth and complexity for their emotional investment.

The author very consciously walks the thin line betwen making us like or despise exactly this character, he does that with many other protagonists, leading them into or out of morally conflicting situations to make judgement difficult for us: Dany first of all but as well Theon or Sansa e.g. In Tyrion's case this is even more carefully orchestrated: we have too much pity with the disinherited dwarf? Let him marry Sansa! We are disappointed now? Let him not rape her! He has been sentenced to death? Let him commit double murder! Poor homeless exiled? Let him threaten a slave! Let the rich upperclass brat become a slave himself, he had it coming....etc... There is a deliberate pattern behind this, we are carefully manipulated into an emotional rollercoaster ride with the character Tyrion more than with others.

So it is somewhat pointless to paint Tyrion dark or to wash him white since we are supposed to have very conflicting feelings about that hugely fascinating character even more than about most other characters, Martin wants us to develop strong emotions here. The author has cleverly calculated the emotional swing of some readers, fully knowing what he does and that some more swings will follow.

No. You inferred that even though it wasn't even remotely implied. Either that or you have mistaken "some readers" for something else entirely.

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