Jon identity crisis over R+L=J

[King Jon Targaryen I]

I think there can be a ppossibilitythat Jon will have a issue of identity that may lead him to do something stupid. Like potentially meeting his half brother Aegon. This is just a interesting thought cause Jon had a spark ignite in him over his Stark side knowing Arya could be alive after the pink letter.

Could the same thing happen with Jon knowing he was Prince Rhaegar was his father, that he has this feeling to reunite with his Argon. The only way they can stop the Others is for Jon to unite the realm. Meaning meeting Aegon or likely meeting his aunt Dany somehow I have no clue.

If Aegon accepts Jon has his half brother he may proclaim Jon the Prince of Dragonstone we don't know, I do not think Aegon will stick a middle finger to Jon and imprision him I think he may be happy he has a half brother. If anything Varys and Illyrio may be the ones to tell Aegon he is a threat but not Aegon himself.

It's just a thought if Jon gets recurected and escapes ( I think Jon will take the Mel with him) Dany eventually landing creates problems has well but if Aegon takes Kings Landing and meets Jon who attempts to warn the realm about the Others may make him Prince of Dragonstone. IMO Jon will be the one to deal with Ramsey Bolton and Stannis with Roose Bolton. Hey it's a interesting thought to Jon hearing about this Aegon VI and attempting to know his Half brother.

[Mladen]

That assuming that Aegon is real, which, well, as I see it, he isn't. Then, you assume that Jon would act upon this in dawn of the Others invasion. I am not certain that we can compare his feelings towards Arya with his sentiment to the new family. I doubt Jon will be involved with Aegon's story, who it seems is destined to die at Dany's hand.

[King Jon Targaryen I]

That assuming that Aegon is real, which, well, as I see it, he isn't. Then, you assume that Jon would act upon this in dawn of the Others invasion. I am not certain that we can compare his feelings towards Arya with his sentiment to the new family. I doubt Jon will be involved with Aegon's story, who it seems is destined to die at Dany's hand.

True, but just a thought.

[the conquering bastard 25]

Actually I really do think Jon and Aegons archs are going to connect. Tyrion is the binding element, he's the only one to have contact with both our hidden princes,not to mention Sansa might play a part still in some animosity between the three men.

[Fire Eater]

Jon would likely have an identity crisis after his heritage is revealed to him, likely in TWoW. Upon learning it, he would be wrestling with it over the next few chapters. I think the only people he would confide in this are Sam and Val. It would be while before he stops trying to deny/suppress it, and accept it.

That assuming that Aegon is real, which, well, as I see it, he isn't. Then, you assume that Jon would act upon this in dawn of the Others invasion. I am not certain that we can compare his feelings towards Arya with his sentiment to the new family. I doubt Jon will be involved with Aegon's story, who it seems is destined to die at Dany's hand.

I don't think he will die by the hand of Dany, but one of her commanders who is a skilled archer like his possible namesake: the Blackfish.

[BrianBoru]

Identity crisis?! Let's see - depending on what he (and other Westerosis) know, he will be considered:

1. Jon Snow, illegitimate son of Eddard Stark

2. Jon Stark-ed, legitimised son of Eddard, first in line to Robb's crown (in the North only, where Robb's writ runs)

3. Jon Sand, illegitimate son of Lyanna and Rhaegar (their marriage not confirmed) [i know, can still be Snow, I use Sand for clarity]

4. Jon Stark-ly, legitimised son of Lyanna, fifth in line (after B, R, S, A) to Robb's crown (in the North only, where Robb's writ runs)

5. Jon Targaryen, true-born son of Lyanna and Rhaegar (following discovery/confirmation of their marriage)

Yeah, I'd be fairly confused if I was him!

Personally, I don't think his second name matters. I think his blood matters - his Targaryen blood means dragon blood and king's blood. Somehow, that will matter. Whether he needs to know about it or not, I'm not so sure. Maybe Jon Snow will meet some dragons but they'll refuse to burn him. Snow wouldn't melt!

On meeting Aegon: We saw how Jon reacted when he heard his half-brother Robb was marching to war - he deserted the NW, only to be brought back by Sam and friends. Now, his NW brothers have stabbed him in the back. If he hears his new half-brother Aegon is at war.... His friends are dead and Sam is far away...

[UnmaskedLurker]

Identity crisis?! Let's see - depending on what he (and other Westerosis) know, he will be considered:

1. Jon Snow, illegitimate son of Eddard Stark

2. Jon Stark-ed, legitimised son of Eddard, first in line to Robb's crown (in the North only, where Robb's writ runs)

3. Jon Sand, illegitimate son of Lyanna and Rhaegar (their marriage not confirmed) [i know, can still be Snow, I use Sand for clarity]

4. Jon Stark-ly, legitimised son of Lyanna, fifth in line (after B, R, S, A) to Robb's crown (in the North only, where Robb's writ runs)

5. Jon Targaryen, true-born son of Lyanna and Rhaegar (following discovery/confirmation of their marriage)

Yeah, I'd be fairly confused if I was him!

Personally, I don't think his second name matters. I think his blood matters - his Targaryen blood means dragon blood and king's blood. Somehow, that will matter. Whether he needs to know about it or not, I'm not so sure. Maybe Jon Snow will meet some dragons but they'll refuse to burn him. Snow wouldn't melt!

On meeting Aegon: We saw how Jon reacted when he heard his half-brother Robb was marching to war - he deserted the NW, only to be brought back by Sam and friends. Now, his NW brothers have stabbed him in the back. If he hears his new half-brother Aegon is at war.... His friends are dead and Sam is far away...

Interesting take on the identity crisis issue. I think that Jon will struggle to come to terms with having been lied to his whole life, and what it means to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. That is some heavy stuff to take in. I also agree that the dragon blood is critical to winning the war--the merger of ice and fire in one person, giving Jon unique abilities.

As to your Aegon analysis, I tend to doubt it. I don't think Jon and Aegon will meet. Jon and Robb grew up together, so trying to help Robb is one thing. Jon never met Aegon and cannot even be sure Aegon really is Jon's half brother (I tend to doubt it--I like the "Brightfyre" theory). Dany is the slayer of lies (the slayer of (f)Aegon). I think people make too much of YG--he is a plot device (IMHO) and not really an important character in his own right--only important in how he impacts other characters who are more central to the plot (like Cersei and Tommen in KL and eventually Dany).

[Lord Lannister]

The thing is, he was raised among the Starks, loves the Starks and culturally identifies as a Stark. Discovering his father was a Targaryen isn't going to magically make him identify with Aegon or Dany. He doesn't know them.

[KINGpanther]

This won't matter when Jon gets rezed by the Others and his Stark/Targ blood makes him a super ubber Wight and becomes Nights King and marches on the Dreadfort, annihalating it and then hunts down Ramsey and fucking destroys him.

Sorry, just played Telltale Game of Thrones and it reaffirmed my hatred of Ramsey Snow.

[Annara Snow]

Identity crisis?! Let's see - depending on what he (and other Westerosis) know, he will be considered:

1. Jon Snow, illegitimate son of Eddard Stark

2. Jon Stark-ed, legitimised son of Eddard, first in line to Robb's crown (in the North only, where Robb's writ runs)

3. Jon Sand, illegitimate son of Lyanna and Rhaegar (their marriage not confirmed) [i know, can still be Snow, I use Sand for clarity]

4. Jon Stark-ly, legitimised son of Lyanna, fifth in line (after B, R, S, A) to Robb's crown (in the North only, where Robb's writ runs)

5. Jon Targaryen, true-born son of Lyanna and Rhaegar (following discovery/confirmation of their marriage)

Yeah, I'd be fairly confused if I was him!

Personally, I don't think his second name matters. I think his blood matters - his Targaryen blood means dragon blood and king's blood. Somehow, that will matter. Whether he needs to know about it or not, I'm not so sure. Maybe Jon Snow will meet some dragons but they'll refuse to burn him. Snow wouldn't melt!

Dragons never had problems burning Targaryens/people with Targaryen blood who were not their riders. See: Rhaenyra; Aegon II getting burned in battle; Quentyn.

[The Holy Goat]

The thing is, he was raised among the Starks, loves the Starks and culturally identifies as a Stark. Discovering his father was a Targaryen isn't going to magically make him identify with Aegon or Dany. He doesn't know them.

This, so much.

Jon Snow will always be the son of the one and only Lord Eddard Stark, the man who raised and loved him. He might eventually, after much soulsearching recognize and accept that Rhaegar and Lyanne were his biological parents, but Ned will be the only true parent he ever had (though the Old Bear almost treated him like a surrogate son from time to time).

[Ser Leftwich]

I think another piece will be something bad about Ned that Howland reveals to Jon. That Ned cheated in the fight with Arthur Dayne or something about Ned's "promises" to Lyanna that he broke.

Not just the newness of Jon's parents, but something that makes Ned look bad in Jon's eyes.

It has always struck me odd that Howland has never left the Neck, that these two best of friends (Ned and Howland) never see each over 15 years.

[Jon Ahai Targeryan]

First of all i dont think Jon will be moving that much south.He draws his support as Neds bastard which is only in the North.Why would he go to the south where he hasnt stepped since he was still a baby?

Second you dont welcome strange supposed half brothers with a claim to the throne with open arms,you kill them.Thats what i suspect danny is going to do.Though there is the all kinslaying issue but it can be sorted by proving Aegon is fake.Basically a Jon-Aegon alliance is out of the question.

[Jon Ahai Targeryan]

First of all i dont think Jon will be moving that much south.He draws his support as Neds bastard which is only in the North.Why would he go to the south where he hasnt stepped since he was still a baby?

Second you dont welcome strange supposed half brothers with a claim to the throne with open arms,you kill them.Thats what i suspect danny is going to do.Though there is the all kinslaying issue but it can be sorted by proving Aegon is fake.Basically a Jon-Aegon alliance is out of the question.

[BrianBoru]

As to your Aegon analysis, I tend to doubt it. I don't think Jon and Aegon will meet. Jon and Robb grew up together, so trying to help Robb is one thing. Jon never met Aegon and cannot even be sure Aegon really is Jon's half brother (I tend to doubt it--I like the "Brightfyre" theory). Dany is the slayer of lies (the slayer of (f)Aegon). I think people make too much of YG--he is a plot device (IMHO) and not really an important character in his own right--only important in how he impacts other characters who are more central to the plot (like Cersei and Tommen in KL and eventually Dany).

OK, I was or am being a bit cheeky here: I don't think I stated any "analysis"! I stated some facts about Jon's history and possible future predicament. I think the conclusion you came to is what I was implying. But I tend to doubt it myself, which is why I only said "...". I don't mean to annoy, I just think the Robb-Aegon similarity is an interesting parallel and wanted to open it for discussion. Consistent with my opinion about the importance/relevance of Jon's blood (compared to the importance of his name), I believe that that the "Song" or story we're reading is about the Others, and not so much about the Iron Throne. So yeah, I'd expect Jon to stay at that battlefront. But we've come a long way since Ser Waymar Royce and the story has taken some twists and turns, so who knows what GRRM has in store for Jon and for us...

For one, GRRM has said that "the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about". We saw this conflict in Jon when Robb marched to war. This conflict might re-emerge when he learns of Aegon. The very fact that he lost his "first" half-brother might give cause to regret, which might motivate a different course of action when he considers Aegon. I'm not predicting this outcome, but I think the avenue is there as a possibility, subject to GRRM's endgame.

Secondly, I think it would be a bit of a disappointment if the Others were stopped at the Wall, and slightly unfair if the Others were contained in the North. The "scourge" of the Others should extend to Southron lands, so that all Westerosis will learn the error of their ways (petty squabbling over the IT). If so, Jon's roll in defending the realms of men might not mean he stays at the Wall.

Alternatively, if the Others turn out to be Stark/Snow allies, then Jon may well move southwards with the Others! If you are so inclined!

As for YG being Aegon or fAegon... I have to admit to being undecided/confused! I didn't want to turn this thread into an Aegon/fAegon debate, so just took him at face value. Young Griff's perceived identity depends on what Westerosis believe at any given time, similar to Jon's identity. If YG is Aegon at the same time as Jon is Sand/Targaryen, then I think the motivation for Jon to head south is there, subject to some creative writing from GRRM.

To digress to the Aegon/fAegon debate: I like the theory that Varys' murder of Pycelle was to remove the last person capable of standing witness against YG as Aegon. I know it's circular logic, but I think this is one of the best arguments against YG as Aegon. As for YG being a "plot device" and not a character in his own right; I think we've heard very little in the books about the Others, but I wouldn't write them off just yet. Likewise, we've heard little in the books about Aegon Targaryen, so I'm not gonna write him off either. There's two books (I think three books, kinda want three books!) left, so there's time....

The thing is, he was raised among the Starks, loves the Starks and culturally identifies as a Stark. Discovering his father was a Targaryen isn't going to magically make him identify with Aegon or Dany. He doesn't know them.

Expanding on the "conflict" I alluded to above: as I said, I don't think his second name matters. To the story (where "blood" matters) or to him (where "brothers" matter). I think it could play out like this:

1. Jon loves his brother Robb

2. Jon swears allegiance to the NW and his new brothers

3. Jon hears of brother Robb marching to war and is in conflict with himself

4. Jon decides to stay with the NW brothers

5. Jon learns the importance of the NW brotherhood in the defense of the realm

6. Jon learns that brother Robb has been killed

7. Jon gets stabbed in the back by his NW "brothers"

8. Jon wakes up/ comes back to life and questions his own loyalty to his NW "brothers"

9. Jon regrets choosing NW "brothers" over brother Robb

10. Jon hears of brother Aegon

11. Once bitten, twice shy. Jon decides to go to brother Aegon...

But, like I said, I'm not predicting this. I just think it's an avenue that's open to GRRM. It's consistent with "heart in conflict with itself". Oh, and I *want* to see Others in the Stormlands!!! :-)

Dragons never had problems burning Targaryens/people with Targaryen blood who were not their riders. See: Rhaenyra; Aegon II getting burned in battle; Quentyn.

Yeah, but we know Brown Ben Plumm gets along with dragons and he just has a drop of Targ blood. If Jon is Rhaegar's son and his is the song of ice and fire (i.e. there's something special about this dude), surely he's got a bit of a thing going with dragons?! I know this is speculation at this stage, but come on, what's the point in R+L=J if he just gets burned by the first dragon that sees him?!

Jon Snow will always be the son of the one and only Lord Eddard Stark, the man who raised and loved him. He might eventually, after much soulsearching recognize and accept that Rhaegar and Lyanne were his biological parents, but Ned will be the only true parent he ever had (though the Old Bear almost treated him like a surrogate son from time to time).

Sure. I kinda want Jon to be Ned's bastard, and pwn all, "despite" his bastardy. In a similar way, I like the idea of Tyrion being this kick-ass third head of the dragon, but I love the story of Tyrion Tywin's son. But perhaps the realisation of Ned's big lie will be enough to sour Jon's memory of Ned, at a critical point in the story. It's up to GRRM.

I think another piece will be something bad about Ned that Howland reveals to Jon. That Ned cheated in the fight with Arthur Dayne or something about Ned's "promises" to Lyanna that he broke.

Not just the newness of Jon's parents, but something that makes Ned look bad in Jon's eyes.

It has always struck me odd that Howland has never left the Neck, that these two best of friends (Ned and Howland) never see each over 15 years.

That's a fair point. Ned and HR were best buddies, but perhaps there's some cause of bad blood between them? Yeah, I like that as a twist. But I think Ned's purpose was to be that "whiter-than-white" knight. Any sort of cheating would be out of character...

First of all i dont think Jon will be moving that much south.He draws his support as Neds bastard which is only in the North.Why would he go to the south where he hasnt stepped since he was still a baby?

Second you dont welcome strange supposed half brothers with a claim to the throne with open arms,you kill them.Thats what i suspect danny is going to do.Though there is the all kinslaying issue but it can be sorted by proving Aegon is fake.Basically a Jon-Aegon alliance is out of the question.

I'm not so sure Jon personally has drawn any support from the North; any support given to the NW was given to the NW, not Jon. Are you speculating on Jon's move for a throne? If he does move for a throne, you might be right, but I think Jon's more focussed on the "real" war.

With regard to your second point, again, I think you are speculating on Jon's move for the Iron Throne. I don't think Jon will have such personal ambitions. If he comes south, it's more likely it will be to end the Second Dance and unite the Three Heads for the "real" war... But this is all highly speculative at this stage.

[Jon Ahai Targeryan]

I am talking of support in terms of the WW cause.I dont think if Jon goes, lets say to dorne where Aegon is probably heading, and tells them of WW anyone for that fact would believe him.Most southern places would probably chop off his head to earn favour with Cersei.Its only in the North where some lords might join him and even the Vale under LF is uncertain.

[UnmaskedLurker]

OK, I was or am being a bit cheeky here: I don't think I stated any "analysis"! I stated some facts about Jon's history and possible future predicament. I think the conclusion you came to is what I was implying. But I tend to doubt it myself, which is why I only said "...". I don't mean to annoy, I just think the Robb-Aegon similarity is an interesting parallel and wanted to open it for discussion. Consistent with my opinion about the importance/relevance of Jon's blood (compared to the importance of his name), I believe that that the "Song" or story we're reading is about the Others, and not so much about the Iron Throne. So yeah, I'd expect Jon to stay at that battlefront. But we've come a long way since Ser Waymar Royce and the story has taken some twists and turns, so who knows what GRRM has in store for Jon and for us...

For one, GRRM has said that "the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about". We saw this conflict in Jon when Robb marched to war. This conflict might re-emerge when he learns of Aegon. The very fact that he lost his "first" half-brother might give cause to regret, which might motivate a different course of action when he considers Aegon. I'm not predicting this outcome, but I think the avenue is there as a possibility, subject to GRRM's endgame.

Secondly, I think it would be a bit of a disappointment if the Others were stopped at the Wall, and slightly unfair if the Others were contained in the North. The "scourge" of the Others should extend to Southron lands, so that all Westerosis will learn the error of their ways (petty squabbling over the IT). If so, Jon's roll in defending the realms of men might not mean he stays at the Wall.

Alternatively, if the Others turn out to be Stark/Snow allies, then Jon may well move southwards with the Others! If you are so inclined!

As for YG being Aegon or fAegon... I have to admit to being undecided/confused! I didn't want to turn this thread into an Aegon/fAegon debate, so just took him at face value. Young Griff's perceived identity depends on what Westerosis believe at any given time, similar to Jon's identity. If YG is Aegon at the same time as Jon is Sand/Targaryen, then I think the motivation for Jon to head south is there, subject to some creative writing from GRRM.

To digress to the Aegon/fAegon debate: I like the theory that Varys' murder of Pycelle was to remove the last person capable of standing witness against YG as Aegon. I know it's circular logic, but I think this is one of the best arguments against YG as Aegon. As for YG being a "plot device" and not a character in his own right; I think we've heard very little in the books about the Others, but I wouldn't write them off just yet. Likewise, we've heard little in the books about Aegon Targaryen, so I'm not gonna write him off either. There's two books (I think three books, kinda want three books!) left, so there's time....

I basically agree with most of your conclusions. I suspect quite strongly that the Wall will fall and the Others will travel south. Wasn't there a vision of snow in the Trident or something like that? I took that vision as a sign that the Others will bring Winter quite a bit south. I just think YG likely will be dead by then, so he will not have anything to do with the march south or Jon or anyone else. As to this thread becoming a (f)Aegon debate--what is relevant for this discussion is not really whether he is really the son of Rhaegar (I am 90% convinced he is not, but beside the point here) but whether Jon would believe YG is the son of Rhaegar. I doubt Jon would run to the rescue of someone that Jon has serious doubts is who he claims to be. I am not even sure Jon will ever find out about YG until after YG has died, but I really am not sure about that issue. But certainly once the Others start heading south--Jon will head south.

As far as "plot device" issues go, I think the Others are in a somewhat different category than YG. YG (IMHO) is a plot device to move the story along--to be an antagonist for the Baratheon dynasty (and I think he may succeed in taking them out) and then an antagonist to Dany (and I think she takes him out). The Others, on the "other" hand, are a bit more than just a plot device. I agree they are what the book is really about (or at least integral to what the book is really about--it is also about Fire after all)--i.e., the Battle for the Dawn 2.0 (in which the Others will be a central, if not the central, aspect). But they are still a plot device in the sense that we will never really get to know them in the way we have gotten to know, for example, Cersei or even Ramsey. They won't be fully fleshed out personal characters. Although, of course, we will learn more about them, as GRRM has promised.

I think that clears up that it does not appear that we really disagree that much--although I still don't really see the Robb--YG parallel the way you do.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

He already has an identity crisis .Ned to Jon "You nay no have my name ,but you have my blood." Jon in his dreams " I do not belong here, I'm not a Stark..."

Just imagine how he would act if L+R=J is true. Never ending whining how the truth was kept from him .

[Julia H.]

He already has an identity crisis .Ned to Jon "You nay no have my name ,but you have my blood." Jon in his dreams " I do not belong here, I'm not a Stark..."

Just imagine how he would act if L+R=J is true. Never ending whining how the truth was kept from him .

The Ned-quote is not in the books.

Never ending whining? I don't think so. I'm sure he will have an identity crisis when he finds out that he is not Ned's son - after all Ned as his father is the only thing he has been certain about all these years. He wanted to find out who his mother was. Discovering the truth will probably be painful and shocking. But I'm quite sure he will understand why the truth was kept from him and he will be able to appreciate what Ned undertook for him.

It would make for an even greater crisis if he found out about Robb's will and his Targaryen blood at roughly the same time. Being legitimized as a Stark and named Robb's heir by Robb would mean a great deal to him, but an equally fresh discovery that he was only a cousin to Robb and a Stark "only" through his mother's line would create a new conflict. He may not be able to prove his Targaryen parentage (not to mention the issue of legitimacy), but accepting the Stark name may not be the "right thing" to do either.

I imagine that he will make the great discovery in private (well, that's what I would like to happen), and I can totally see him deciding to keep the secret a secret because it would be difficult to prove it anyway, and besides, the Others are here so there is no time for an identity crisis right now. He just has to fight and do his best regardless of who his father was.

Of course, even in this case, something could happen to bring home the importance of his true parentage to him, but I doubt that his first move will be to rush to find new family members.

[the conquering bastard 25]

But his identity and this crisis with the others is linked.

Learning he's Rhaegar and not Neds is going to lead to the discovery that he's always meant to be at the Wall. Yet to also learn that a great many sacrificed a lot for his conception and birth, then to learn at leat at first he's conception is the reason so many of his family members blood is on each other hands. His father, mother, grandfathers, uncles. This grandfathers were plotting against each other. His father was plotting against his father, while his maternal uncle and grandfather were plotting with his paternal first cousin twice removed to overthrow his paternal grandfather for his crimes against the realm and his entire family for snubbing certain families out of their royal matches for something as crazy as love. With his mother in the middle as a pawn in the affairs of men and schemes for power.

His paternal grandfather kills his maternal grandfather and Uncle. His paternal first cousin twice removed then kills his father, while he kills his mother to be born, talk about a guilt feast. His maternal uncle then claims him as his own to keep him safe from this same paternal first cousin twice removed that killed his father and condoned the brutal death of his half sister and stepmother and so the realm thought his half brother as well. Only for said brother to come back from the dead, stake a claim upon the throne, while their mural other cousin is at the Wall claiming the same thing.Yet here is JS slap dead in the middle.