Why did Jaime and Tyrion get along?

[Fae Boleyn]

Imho it was the only way he could keep his honor.

I agree, but I'm using the Westerosi definition where being an oathbreaker is dishonorable, even if justifiable.

Remember, the KG think it's honorable to protect their king and not defy him to protect their queen when they can hear him raping her, because it's the vow they swore.

[complexphoenix]

Jaime was never as bad a person as he seemed to be in Book One. He was, right from the beginning, a creature of his family, shaped by his father's teachings and his love for Cersei. He loved Tyrion because Tyrion was his little brother, he didn't need any more reason than that, and unlike Tywin and Cersei he didn't care that Tyrion was a dwarf and didn't blame him for Joanna's death. Jaime doesn't love very many people, but those he does love, he loves with his whole heart. That is his nature.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Where do you get that impression from? I think the evidence we have points more to the contrary.

Idk.. I think he told Cersei to stop pinching Tyrion's wang. He also pulled Cersei away from the lions in that zoo at Casterly Rock

[David Selig]

Yet he outclassed both his sister and father in kindness, in how he got along with Tyrion.

Talk about setting a low bar...

He's pretty smart. Not on par with Varys, LF, and probably Tyrion, but still above average.

Come on. The guy thought declaring to the whole world that he'd been having sex with his sister for 20 years and that Tommen was a bastard would be a good idea. This alone makes him a total dumbass, and that's hardly his only really stupid moment in the series.

[Khal Shaggydog]

He is smart - which is a Lannister trait. One of the great parts of re-reads the brilliance of both Tyrion and Jaime in certain circumstances. They have the capacity to not just read people but also to think abstractly to find a solution to their circumstances, to make a sound choice where it appears there are no choices to make at all.

Like Tyrion in the Vale - first using some base tactics to get Mords attention, then using court procedure and Lysa's personality to get in front of the court, and gambling on Bronn both stepping up and winning in a trial that Lysa did everythign to handicap in Tyrions favor. Then negotiating with the mountain clans, etc etc.

Jaime pulls a straight up Tyrion in the riverlands when he re-installs Edmure as Lord and then gets his surrender. I seriously challenge anyone here to come up with a more effective plan in those spots.

They get along because they are brothers, and because they are what each other is not. No way Tyrion is competeing with Jaime for anything, or vice versa. So unlike the Baratheon brothers, they were never going to be rivals in the absence of good parenting.

[John Doe]

Come on. The guy thought declaring to the whole world that he'd been having sex with his sister for 20 years and that Tommen was a bastard would be a good idea. This alone makes him a total dumbass, and that's hardly his only really stupid moment in the series.

Did he? No. Judging him by what he did he was pretty smart.

[David Selig]

Did he? No. Judging him by what he did he was pretty smart.

He didn't because Cersei refused. Think about that for a second. She is the reasonable one of the couple. She was the thinker of the couple for 20 plus years because Jaime was too lazy and was bored by everything which didn't include swords.

[Khal Shaggydog]

He didn't because Cersei refused. Think about that for a second. She is the reasonable one of the couple. She was the thinker of the couple for 20 plus years because Jaime was too lazy and was bored by everything which didn't include swords.

Agreed on that point. He didnt give a shit to think for himself at all during all those years after RR, and let crazy Cersei do his thinking.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Where do you get that impression from? I think the evidence we have points more to the contrary.

There's some passages where cersei is remembering her childhood with jaime. she comes up with the idea to swap clothes, for example IIRC. She wants to lead, to play with swords, to make a difference but is stymied and forced to drop all her ambitions. Meanwhile jaime continues oblivious, enjoying his life quietly.

Overall the impression I get is that if cersei were a boy and jaime a girl things would have worked out mug better for the both of them but, like I said these are cersei's remebrances and she's pretty biased.

Oh yeah, and the lion thing - cersei was bolder and braver when they were very young.

[Khal Shaggydog]

Thats an interesting point, prob true. If their sexes were switched, or their personalities (same diff), we would have had a Jaime Lannister that probably wouldve refused the KG honors, and a Cersei who would never have sex with her brother. Not that it has any bearing on the actual story..

[Dofs]

There's some passages where cersei is remembering her childhood with jaime. she comes up with the idea to swap clothes, for example IIRC. She wants to lead, to play with swords, to make a difference but is stymied and forced to drop all her ambitions. Meanwhile jaime continues oblivious, enjoying his life quietly.

Overall the impression I get is that if cersei were a boy and jaime a girl things would have worked out mug better for the both of them but, like I said these are cersei's remebrances and she's pretty biased.

Oh yeah, and the lion thing - cersei was bolder and braver when they were very young.

I surely didn't get an impression that Jaime was a quite boy. He was a cheerful boy, who liked all the boyish stuff like knighthood, tournaments etc. After all, when he visited Tullys, he was greatly interested into Blackfish's tales about his deeds in the War of Ninepenny Kings. That said, yeah, Jaime likes to follow, not to lead, he is not really initiative and as a boy he probably just went along with Cersei, who was the leader of their relationship.

About the lion incident - we know that Jaime is absolutely reckless who does not fear death at all, he is the guy who unarmed jump into a bear pit after all. But he is not an idiot who would do such stupid things as sticking his hand into a cage with lions for no reason. Cersei doing it means that if she was a boy, she would have not lived till adulthood.

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

Okay, besides the incest thing and pushing Brandon out the window how is Jaime ever evil or even morally bad? He killed the Madking because he knew he had to do it, he also knew that telling people what the Madking had planned would not help him as he had no real proof and the charge would seem simply self-serving. He becomes jaded, after that but not evil (except the pushing Brandon out the window bit and even thee he he acts gibbly but he knows the act is not moral).

I always felt that ordering the killings of Jory Cassel and the rest of Ned's men was the worst thing he ever did.

I don't know if it counts as downright evil, but to me it is definitely morally wrong to order the death of men to punish a guy cause he wife did something you disapprove of!

[SevasTra82]

I think Jaime (at the beginning) was heavily influenced by being around Cersai. When you hang around a bad apple, you tend to pick up that bad apples habits. There is no doubt that Cersai IMO influenced Jaime into the arrogant little punk he seemed to be at first.

However, I do believe that his dealings with Brienne "broke" him away from that. He was cold and arrogant at first, but over time, Jaime learned to respect Brienne and now thinks very highly of her. When he finally got back to Cersei, he realized how manipulative she was to him (being away from her for some time made him realize this) and he slowly begins to despise her due to the power hungry bitch she is. All Cersei wants to do is use him as a pawn in her games, and Jaime sees that now.

Jaime never seems to blame Tyrion for Joanna's death. Cersei was to be wed to Oberyn Martell, but Tyrions birth (and Joanna's death) put an end to that. (I'm not sure if that also plays a part in Cerseis ill-feelings or not but worth mentioning). Jaime simply had no reason to despise Tyrion. He understood that his mothers death was not Tyrions fault.

Simply put, jaime is a loyal, kind hearted man who was just twisted by Cerseis cruel bitchy-ness. His time away from her helped reveal his true colors.

[ChillyPolly]

Tyrion believes that Jaime paid a hefty price to procure for him a common 14-year old virgin for him to deflower and then discard. Tyrion is grateful for this, just as a dragon is grateful when you feed it maidens to devour. When Tyrion realized Jaime had not really done this, he decided he hated him.

[complexphoenix]

Tyrion believes that Jaime paid a hefty price to procure for him a common 14-year old virgin for him to deflower and then discard. Tyrion is grateful for this, just as a dragon is grateful when you feed it maidens to devour. When Tyrion realized Jaime had not really done this, he decided he hated him.

No, Tyrion was grateful because he believed Jaime had bought him Tysha as a kindness, and he appreciated the intent even though the whole thing ended so badly. Tyrion got mad at Jaime because he found out that Jaime lied to him and told him that his beloved wife was a whore who was only with him for money, when in fact she truly loved him. Your take here is a hideous distortion.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I surely didn't get an impression that Jaime was a quite boy. He was a cheerful boy, who liked all the boyish stuff like knighthood, tournaments etc. After all, when he visited Tullys, he was greatly interested into Blackfish's tales about his deeds in the War of Ninepenny Kings. That said, yeah, Jaime likes to follow, not to lead, he is not really initiative and as a boy he probably just went along with Cersei, who was the leader of their relationship.

ok, Cheerful and loving will do. I wasn't trying to make it seem as if he doesn't like combat and other boyish things by saying he's a quiet and empathetic boy. Those things are fun of course he loves them! Cersei thought they were fun too.

By quiet I am more meaning what you say in bolded, he's a follower, not a leader, he's not the bold and aggressive one of the two, he's happy to go along with what others want, etc.

About the lion incident - we know that Jaime is absolutely reckless who does not fear death at all, he is the guy who unarmed jump into a bear pit after all. But he is not an idiot who would do such stupid things as sticking his hand into a cage with lions for no reason. Cersei doing it means that if she was a boy, she would have not lived till adulthood.

On the 2nd point I agree Jaime is more reckless by the time they are adults. I thought what this passage was trying to show, though, was that this wasn't always the case. I figured Jaime's recklessness was more a result of things that happen later in his life as KG (and the resulting cynicism and devil-may-care attitude).

I think Jaime (at the beginning) was heavily influenced by being around Cersai. When you hang around a bad apple, you tend to pick up that bad apples habits. There is no doubt that Cersai IMO influenced Jaime into the arrogant little punk he seemed to be at first.

...

Simply put, jaime is a loyal, kind hearted man who was just twisted by Cerseis cruel bitchy-ness. His time away from her helped reveal his true colors.

Correction: Jaime was (probably) a loving, kind-hearted boy. By the time he was a man he was already corrupted, mostly IMO by being KG for Aerys, not by Cersei. Most of the time they were adolescents, he was apart from Cersei. In fact his love :ack: for cersei seems to be one of the few bright points during this part of his life.

Saying he's Cerseis' puppet cheapens his character, IMO. There's way more to him than that. He's jaded and cynical by the time we see him in the first book, by this point he's decided he doesn't give a F. He's responsible for that, not anyone else.

[shadow282]

Jaime loves Tyrion because they're brothers. Essentially all there is to it.

On an unrelated note, I never get why people say Jaime "didn't have a choice" when he killed Aerys. Of course he had a choice. Swords have two equally useful ends. One is excellent for stabbing/killing, the other one is excellent for knocking people out. Knocking him unconscious would have had the same effect, but Jaime chose to kill him instead.

[Dofs]

ok, Cheerful and loving will do. I wasn't trying to make it seem as if he doesn't like combat and other boyish things by saying he's a quiet and empathetic boy. Those things are fun of course he loves them! Cersei thought they were fun too.

By quiet I am more meaning what you say in bolded, he's a follower, not a leader, he's not the bold and aggressive one of the two, he's happy to go along with what others want, etc.

All right, I agree with you anyway on the main idea. I'm not sure thought that Cersei liked things like swords, knighthood. Seems like she resents the overall idea that Jaime was given more power and choice then her, I don't remember her being particularly interested in knighthood and all that stuff.

On the 2nd point I agree Jaime is more reckless by the time they are adults. I thought what this passage was trying to show, though, was that this wasn't always the case. I figured Jaime's recklessness was more a result of things that happen later in his life as KG (and the resulting cynicism and devil-may-care attitude).

Well, Jaime participated and won in a tournament at the age of 13, showed great valor in the battle with the Smiling Knight and his gang, fighting with Smiling Knight himself at the age of 15 etc. I would think that Jaime was always a bold and adventurous guy. Just sticking a hand into the lion cage is not bravery, it's idiocy and Jaime understood that. It's just Cersei was desperate to prove that she was braver, more manly than Jaime by sticking her hand into the cage but I'm sure Jaime did not think much about this incident at all.

Saying he's Cerseis' puppet cheapens his character, IMO. There's way more to him than that. He's jaded and cynical by the time we see him in the first book, by this point he's decided he doesn't give a F. He's responsible for that, not anyone else.

I would say that he was Cersei's puppet at that time because he literally did everything she asked of him. He was ready to kill another king if she just asked. All his thoughts about them being one soul in two bodies and that they would die together are obviously Cersei's ideas planted into his head. When Cat told him that his uncle Stafford had died, Jaime responded "uncle Dolt, Cersei calls him". He was obviously influenced by Cersei a lot. Jaime is a very naive guy, that can sacrifice absolutely everything for the woman he loves - his birthright, his freedom, possibility to have a family etc. He was absolutely blind in his devotion for Cersei and she knew it and used it. In a situation like that, it was basically impossible for Jaime to not be influenced by her.

Even Jaime himself now think that Cersei was manipulating him for his entire life.

[ChillyPolly]

No, Tyrion was grateful because he believed Jaime had bought him Tysha as a kindness, and he appreciated the intent even though the whole thing ended so badly. Tyrion got mad at Jaime because he found out that Jaime lied to him and told him that his beloved wife was a whore who was only with him for money, when in fact she truly loved him. Your take here is a hideous distortion.

I don't necessarily dispute anything you say above. Where do you find distortion if anything I said?

Yes. Tyrion thought Jaime did him a "kindness" by feeding him a yummy virgin to devour and discard. The "kindness" was obviously to Tyrion, and not to the yummy virgin, who was regarded simply as a thing to be used, by both Tyrion and Jaime.

In the end, Tyrion's gratitude is turned to anger, because if he had realized Tysha "really loved him", he might not have devoured and discarded her quite so quickly.

[complexphoenix]

I don't necessarily dispute anything you say above. Where do you find distortion if anything I said?

Yes. Tyrion thought Jaime did him a "kindness" by feeding him a yummy virgin to devour and discard. The "kindness" was obviously to Tyrion, and not to the yummy virgin, who was regarded simply as a thing to be used, by both Tyrion and Jaime.

In the end, Tyrion's gratitude is turned to anger, because if he had realized Tysha "really loved him", he might not have devoured and discarded her quite so quickly.

You're distorting because you're neglecting the fact that Tyrion himself NEVER intended to discard her. He loved her! He MARRIED her! It was Tywin who instigated the deception that forced the two of them apart. You are painting Tyrion as a bad guy in a story where he was actually one of the victims.