Heresy 143 Winter Solstice Edition

[Black Crow]

Welcome to the latest edition of the long-running thread, now in its fourth year, that takes a sideways and sometimes quirky look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

So what’s it about and why so successful?

The short answer that it is a free-flowing discussion forum within a forum looking at all sorts of different aspects of the story but largely concerned with the Wall and the Heart of Darkness beyond. The Heresy comes from the conviction that the Others are not the ultimate enemy and that it only awaits the unmasking of Jon Snow as Azor Ahai the rightful heir to the Iron Throne before this everyday tale of Mediaeval folk reaches a triumphant conclusion in a great battle on the Trident pitting Dany’s amazing dragons against the icy hordes.

Instead, [and I speak generally because beyond that there is no Heretic creed] there is a feeling that Craster’s sons do not represent an evil empire of the snows, an icy version of a Dothraki khalasar about to embark on the last hurrah of the blue-eyed horde, but rather may just be the servants of the real enemy, who may be much closer to hand and already engaged in a hidden struggle for Westeros.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

Oh, and don’t forget Snowfyre’s health warning:

WARNING: Mental exercise is essential for a healthy life. But if you do not already exercise your mind, you should seek the advice of your doctor prior to beginning this or any other mental activity. Not all thought exercises are suitable for everyone, and any use of your imagination may result in injury to preconceived worldviews. Consult with your doctor before embarking on theories with The Snowfyre Chorus or other self-acknowledged Heretics. If you experience pain or discomfort during consideration of any theory, stop immediately and consult your doctor. The creators, producers, participants and distributors of Heresy-related theories cannot guarantee that component ideas are proper for every individual, or "safe" for his or her preconceived narrative expectations.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Winter Solstice edition and fittingly it's snowing in Massachusetts. So in the very first prologue Royce notices an extreme chill the second before he is confronted with the White walkers/Others/popcicles. I get the impression they need the cold to be around in general but they bring an extra chill along with them. In the same way Mel seems to always be warm but to a greater extent obviously.

[Srecan]

Wolfmaid7 said in heresy 142 :

Going back to my theory the WWs have nothing to do with raising the dead.We have to loom to the G reenseers
For that.

I would like to hear your theory on how can they ride dead horses if GS are controlling them?

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

The same way Cold hands is controlled maybe?

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

or is cold hands controlled

[Matthew.]

Winter Solstice edition and fittingly it's snowing in Massachusetts. So in the very first prologue Royce notices an extreme chill the second before he is confronted with the White walkers/Others/popcicles. I get the impression they need the cold to be around in general but they bring an extra chill along with them. In the same way Mel seems to always be warm but to a greater extent obviously.

I think it's fair to assume that the WWs are bringing some extra cold with them, and I'd say it's all but confirmed in the show's adaptation of them. In the episode with the mutineers, the ranger who leaves Craster's latest son out as an offering goes over to taunt a caged-up Ghost, and pours out his canteen in front of him; moments later, a cold wind sweeps in, and the water he just poured out freezes up almost instantly. We can infer from this that the WW had just arrived to collect the son, and brought an unnatural cold with his arrival.

[Black Crow]

That comes back to the old "comes with the cold or brings the cold?" question which GRRM poses and its worth noting that in his earlier story about the Ice Dragon, when that same question is posed it turns out in the end that the Ice Dragon brings the cold. That would suggest some kind of magical cold aura, just as Mel conversely has a warm aura around her.

[Voice]

Cheers Heretics :)

Here's to the Winter Solstice :cheers:

I can certainly agree that they did not kill Royce to be merciful, and they did have their fun with it. I wouldn't say they are "good guys" in any sense of the word; I am just not convinced that they are worse than some humans. Worse than many, certainly, but not to the point that would explain the absolute horror associated with the Long Night and the feeling of dread that comes with just the word, Others.

Most men don't enjoy killing as much as Popsicle #1 seems to, aside from the really evil ones like Joffrey, Ramsey and the Cleganes, but we do also have Oberyn for example rather enjoying his conquest of the Mountain, shaming and bullying included (well, right up until the end and to be fair he did have a reason to hate him) and perhaps an even better example would be the Meereenese who force slaves to fight to the death while they watch and enjoy a snack. But, bottom line, if the Others in the prologue had been human, they would be among the minority that enjoys killing a little too much. (Which doesn't preclude the possibility that among their own race, they are in this same minority, since we do seem to have some records of more agreeable Others, especially the Night's Queen).

Agreed Maester. If they had been human, their killing of Waymar would've been quite mundane. I think what makes the Prologue special is that, though dead, Waymar rises to strangle Will. Well, that, and the fact that they were inhuman :)

As for the trees- I wonder if in order for a sacrifice to count, it must be intended as such. Given that maester Luwin died beneath the WF heart tree. Theon doesn't mention the face looking any different in later chapters, so we at least know it doesn't change based on whose blood is spilled at its base. I do like the idea of trees waiting for a specific sacrifice, because changing the face with every one seems unlikely.

The Halfhand said "the trees have eyes again". I wonder if the faces appeared as the powers of Ice began to stir, demanding sacrifices as both sides started to gear up for the coming conflict.

I also like the idea of the Singers having sacrificed men since before the Dawn age. Given that Essos provides no legends to support this idea though, I wonder if instead of carting them in from overseas they simply used whoever built the Seastone Chair. ;)

Sure, seems plausible to me.

I'm not sure about these two. Thistle for example clearly was not killed by a ww or an Other,

I'm not sure about them either, but the manner of Thistle's death is far from clear.

and I think we have several wildling accounts of family members dying of illness and waking up as wights. So it seems more likely that whoever dies beyond the Wall will rise, regardless of what killed them.

The wildling accounts are far from clear as well. People off on their own... away from the main camp... returning as wights...

It may be "that whoever dies beyond the Wall will rise, regardless of what killed them..." now. But before the white walkers migrated south, the dead stayed dead. Othor and Jafer are far from the first crows to be killed north of the Wall, but they are the first to rise after being dead in thousands of years.

So I would argue that the presence of Others is still responsible for any rising of the dead.

Along the same lines, the risen wildlings that come back to attack their families don't seem to be out for revenge (Tormund's son, Osha's lover). To me, it seems more like they attack anything that's alive- even Sam's donkey!

I think this observation actually proves the notion of wights being strategically controlled by white walkers and/or Others. Some wights are sent to harry the wildling host at random, as with Tormond's son, which helps usher the wildlings South. Some are sent on stealth missions, as with unOthor and unJafer, who attack key targets within Castle Black.

It is brilliantly done, sending both the living (wildlings) and the dead (wights) to attack the Wall. And far too brilliant to be chance.

That being said, I agree with almost everything else in your post, especially the Ancient Others- I've heard you propose this before, and liked it then too. B/c the ones we have seen are just not 'undefeatable' enough, IMO. It seems that, as long as you know you need to be using obsidian, they are not a very formidable foe. Especially if you can use obsidian arrows, you wouldn't even have to get anywhere near them to kill them. Combined with the wights being so flammable.... I can't see a justification for the amount of time, effort, resources and magic that would have been required to build the Wall and then man it for 6-8000 years. Just build a normal castle Wall (i.e. Winterfell) and arm yourself with a) obsidian arrows and B) flaming arrows. Problem solved.

Exactly! And apparently dragonsteel is necessary to kill them... which would make them much more difficult to kill than simply chucking some dragonglass at them from afar.

This sets up a far more interesting dynamic than simply dragonglassing ww's like fish in a barrel:

1. no one knows what dragonsteel is exactly, but it doesn't sound like something you could tip an arrow with
2. if it is Valyrian Steel, this explains why the lords of the great houses are important, and why they had need of the blades
3. if it is not Valyrian Steel, then we may have our first, unmystical, non-R'llhorist account of weaponry akin to that of AA

[wolfmaid7]

Wolfmaid7 said in heresy 142 :

Going back to my theory the WWs have nothing to do with raising the dead.We have to loom to the G reenseers

For that.

I would like to hear your theory on how can they ride dead horses if GS are controlling them?

The reason why they can ride a dead horse,has nothing to do with them raising and controlling. The horse remembers its a horse.Its meant to be ridden and even though its dead doesn't mean that its going act any different.Its just a dead horse.After Puddles bit the dust Mr Ed didn't go all crazy on them because when the horse was alive i'm sure it didn't go bonkers ,it wasn't in its nature.Its still doing what it did in life taxing people around, in this case Puddles it was just dead.

This is a snapshot of my theory

Lets look at the fact that we have people animals etc dying all over the North different locations spaning miles and miles and they are just getting up.

Like v6,i believe the cold GS is riding the wind and collecting skins which is essentially what its doing.....See Tyrion's quote in my sig,hell take into consideration what several characters have been warning "The cold winds are rising" The wws are not the threat.

"The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back ... or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Haliand the rest of them fools?"

“The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants?” ACOKs,Jon

From v6's prologue

"Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind.Adwd prologue."

Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself. adwd,prologue.

This attribute is most associated with the GS position or anything that we know is a Skinchanger. We saw this anomally when the DWs were found,when Sam heard the whispering from the tree with the Ravens,Bran several times and before every Wight attack.

When V6 tells Bran one day he'll be able to go beyond the trees....ding ding look above.Now v6 wasn't yet dead and he hadn't Bran or BR ability as a GS but its a snap shot of what a GS can do when they come into their true power.Limited ofcourse by their time in the cycle.

Then we have Leaf's warning to Bran when he saw Ned" Do not seek to call him back from death"

There is an inferrence that what's going on with the Wights skinchanging is behind it ,and better yet a skinchanger with kick ass powers (GS)

BC i put the "iam the wood" for you,you know where i'm heading with this? "He gives his sons to the wood"

Whether they turn to wws or not,we know who or what's probably recieving Craster's sacrifices.

[wolfmaid7]

I think it's fair to assume that the WWs are bringing some extra cold with them, and I'd say it's all but confirmed in the show's adaptation of them. In the episode with the mutineers, the ranger who leaves Craster's latest son out as an offering goes over to taunt a caged-up Ghost, and pours out his canteen in front of him; moments later, a cold wind sweeps in, and the water he just poured out freezes up almost instantly. We can infer from this that the WW had just arrived to collect the son, and brought an unnatural cold with his arrival.

The cold that the wws emit is natural to them,they are cold creatures no different than Mel or the dragons emiting their own heat. That's not in question.

This same riddle is spoken of when it also comes to the Wights telling me it is a confounder and the cause is NOT the WWs or the Wights but The Cold.The Cold and everything that accompanies it is the physical manifestation that another life is there.

"Do you think the Wights are gone?" Sam asked Grenn

Why don't they come finish us?"

"They only come when it's cold "

Yes" said Sam ,but is it the cold that brings the Wights or the Wights that bring the cold?"(Sam,asos,pg.448-449).

It is The cold itself that is the issue,it is exclusive of them senient, apart from them , the creatures like the Wights are just enslaved by it,the WWs probably are to. It is sentient we have seen the same thing happen when v6 died or was dying and making his way through different things.

The wights are enthralled just like v6 did his animals as well. Skinchanging magic is involved with them.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

The reason why they can ride a dead horse,has nothing to do with them raising and controlling. The horse remembers its a horse.Its meant to be ridden and even though its dead doesn't mean that its going act any different.Its just a dead horse.After Puddles bit the dust Mr Ed didn't go all crazy on them because when the horse was a live it wasn't in its nature.Its still doing what it did in life taxing people in this case Puddles around it was just dead.

I thought they had been recorded riding bears and ice spiders too and they dont exactly get ridden often.

[Srecan]

The reason why they can ride a dead horse,has nothing to do with them raising and controlling. The horse remembers its a horse.Its meant to be ridden and even though its dead doesn't mean that its going act any different.Its just a dead horse.After Puddles bit the dust Mr Ed didn't go all crazy on them because when the horse was a live it wasn't in its nature.Its still doing what it did in life taxing people in this case Puddles around it was just dead.

Not all horses has in their nature to be taxi's. But I see your logic.It depends on the nature of a raised wight.

Not all humans are violent and some during their life did something else rather then killing warm blooded creatures. So why doesent some of them remember they need to tend sheep's or something.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Not all horses has in their nature to be taxi's. But I see your logic.It depends on the nature of a raised wight.

Not all humans are violent and some during their life did something else rather then killing warm blooded creatures. So why doesent some of them remember they need to tend sheep's or something

HAHA wights would make great free labor thats for sure

[aDanceWithFlagons]

HAHA wights would make great free labor thats for sure

Right on. Dolorous Edd thinks so too. But of course if the Cold doesn't tell the wights to work then they won't do it. :laugh:

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Not all horses has in their nature to be taxi's. But I see your logic.It depends on the nature of a raised wight.

Not all humans are violent and some during their life did something else rather then killing warm blooded creatures. So why doesent some of them remember they need to tend sheep's or something.

I can't wait to see a wightified sheepherder. :) As SerWalterPuffsAlot points out below/above they also ride other animals like bears which would point to some type of control. Which is funny cuz Varamyr rode a bear also and it took a lot of control to keep it cooperative. I think this another clue that the white walkers have some type of skinchanging or a parralel ability.

[Srecan]

I can't wait to see a wightified sheepherder. :) As SerWalterPuffsAlot points out below/above they also ride other animals like bears which would point to some type of control. Which is funny cuz Varamyr rode a bear also and it took a lot of control to keep it cooperative. I think this another clue that the white walkers have some type of skinchanging or a parralel ability.

That exactly was my point, there has to be some kind of control. They may not be raising wights themselves, but they've been given control of them for sure.

Edit: spelling

ETA: It also confirms that they are working towards the same goal, so if GS's are bringing them back to life it mean that they are behind WW's too.

[DarkRose_9]

OT: Why is this the solstice edition? Seems a little early for that; am I missing something? :huh:

[wolfmaid7]

Not all horses has in their nature to be taxi's. But I see your logic.It depends on the nature of a raised wight.

Not all humans are violent and some during their life did something else rather then killing warm blooded creatures. So why doesent some of them remember they need to tend sheep's or something.

Lets see the wights we have seen thus far consisted of NW members and Wildlings.The culture of men period due to the time is a violent one. If you wanted to match a culture blow for blow in warfare who better than the dead of men.No matter who you beleve is raising them,they are the perfect weapon with no fear and short of burning and decapitations you are screwed.

The cold without a body is limited to killing only the dying then using them or raising the dead. The wights represent a weapon because they themselves can kill the healthy.Seriously is what's happening with the wights any different that what v6 did with his animals or Thistle.Its the same thing as using skins and enthralling all over again just with the dead.

I would also ask you to read asos pg 644-647 and i ask you to focus on when the Wights including Small Paul became violent.Look at that and consider what we know of top predators why it is we are told not to run because when we do we trigger an instinct.The wight hordes behave like swarms looking at their behavior on the Fist are they any different than the Crows that swarmed that horde outside the hut?

That being said i don't think we'd see any of them being farmers because they are not being utilized for that. They are being utilized for killing,but i think its incorrect to say the killing is blood thirsty. We have not seen wights rip open another person's stomach. They've strangled,attempted to strangle( hands around necks or in the mouth) and broken necks in silence..Why,why not tear people apart the way you've ripped the horses to shreds.Even that is contrary to the stories about them.

I can't wait to see a wightified sheepherder. :) As SerWalterPuffsAlot points out below/above they also ride other animals like bears which would point to some type of control. Which is funny cuz Varamyr rode a bear also and it took a lot of control to keep it cooperative. I think this another clue that the white walkers have some type of skinchanging or a parralel ability.

Actually that not true or atlease that doesn't seem to be true. We are told from "the stories" of Nan that they ride Snowbears and Direwolves also. That however we have only seen from Skkinchangers which points to a possible blending of the stories and that term Other.Maybe they will ride them buuut I don't think that is any clue the wws are skinchangers at all,if it is they are very poor ones as again i cannot see how these dudes got defeated. We are making them into the ultimate enemy with no proof. So their resume thus far stands as:

Skilled swords men,that can change their molecular composition to be a gas,liquid and solid and now they are skinchangers...sigh

Someone else controlling the wights and allowing them to use is not unheard or farfetched we have seen it. Coldhands with his Elk allowing Bran and Co,plus Sam and Gilly to ride it points to that.

I doubt Bran was controlling the Elk.But if you believe CH controlled it or BR its the same thing and enthralled animal by something else was allowed to taxi someone else

[Black Crow]

OT: Why is this the solstice edition? Seems a little early for that; am I missing something? :huh:

Unless this one takes off dramatically we'll still be around when it happens

[Black Crow]

I thought they had been recorded riding bears and ice spiders too and they dont exactly get ridden often.

As we used to say in the Army its a question of mind over matter. Craster's boys don't mind and the beasts are dead so they don't matter.