Heresy 143 Winter Solstice Edition

[precioushobbit]

Vlad Dracula was a Janissary. Perhaps even a little King of Winterish in his harsh treatment of people (Ottomans and Christians alike) in his pursuit of his dominion. The Starks as the Kings of Winter might have been similarly hard men. Perhaps one of them was hard enough to earn the distinction of the Night King for resisting the Andals as Dracula was for impaling Ottomans.

[King Tyrion XX]

On an unrelated note, I just found out that my wife got me VIP tickets to a film festival in Nacogdoches Texas, where the guest panelist will be none other than GRRM. Included with the tickets is an invite to a q&a with Mr. Martin. I'm trying to figure out what to ask him (if given the opportunity) that won't prompt him to get a restraining order out on me.

Awesome :) Wish I could be there.

Ask him If Mance is Rhaegar :P

I'm sure Heresy can come up with a great question that he hasn't heard 1,001 times :)

[Voice]

There can be no doubt the Wall exists to separate self from other. It is easy to defend, and I believe it does serve as the shield that guards the realms of men.

Full Disclamer: I do not subscribe to theories that isolate the purpose of the Watch from the purpose of the Wall. I think the Black Gate serves to disprove such arguments emphatically.

For hundreds of generations, Men of the NW believed they served to protect the realm from the wildlings beyond. That was their mistake, their true purpose lost and forgotten. I subscribe to the nonheretical view that Othor, Jafer, and the Fist reminded them of their true purpose. They are the watcher on the walls, the horn that wakes the sleepers. Their words are old, as old as the Wall in my view. 1 blast means rangers returning, 2 blasts mean human hostiles. 3 blasts of the horn means Others. I think they have always had to deal with human hostility, and so it remains a part of their code, but the Others are the ones that require the 700ft wall of Ice.

So back to the sentinels, they are always described like pine trees, in my mind's eye anyway. Martin describes them as hovering about. Though unmoving, they are ominous.

The 79 sentinels are also unmoving. They wore blacks, but were encased in white. It may be that they are the original white walkers. But, in my mind, it need not be limited to them.

If ww's are an equal and opposite reflection (like a photographic negative) of anyone, 'Men of the Night's Watch' would make the most sense -- particularly Night's Watchmen armed with Dragonglass.

Let's take a look at a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, armed with dragonglass.... What would be the opposite of a short, black, opaque, reflective, brittle dagger? I would think the negative reflection of a weapon like that would be something like a long, white, transparent, luminous, indestructible longsword.

Black Brothers turned to White Brothers. Black Rangers turned to White Walkers.

...allow me to prattle on a bit more...less coherently as I'm enjoying some very fine mead :D

While I do believe we do a disservice to CotF when we think of them as northern creatures, I do not think the same applies to Northmen and Others. The Wall divides them. The Neck divides them both from the rest of Westeros. The Broken Arm divides Westeros from Essos....etc. Back to the Wall, it divides the North from the NORTH.

I think there must always be a long-faced Stark in Winter-Fell, to provide a counterbalance with NK who resides in the lands of Winter-Always evermore. Starks live and die, while NK does not. Hence the need to pass on the duty of residence throughout the generations.

The Wall divides them. The Watch watches them, and defends itself with the Wall. We've already seen that the first attack upon the Wall in the series came from the South, not the North. And they quickly remembered how to adapt to the sudden change in orientation.

I think the Watch balances the forces of the north that be.

Now, I need to top off my goblet :cheers:

One more thing. The Messenger is the Riddle, not the Riddler. Under the sea the crows are white as snow.

All the ravens (crows) are black until the season changes...

then white ravens are sent forth.

All the Brothers of the NW are black, until the season changes...

then white walkers are sent forth.

[Voice]

AFFC chapter 19 The Drowned Man

One unfurled his banner, a great black longship against a setting sun. "I am Gylbert Farwynd, Lord of the Lonely Light," the lord told the kingsmoot.

Aeron knew some Farwynds, a queer folk who held lands on the westernmost shores of Great Wyk and the scattered isles beyond, rocks so small that most could support but a single household. Of those, the Lonely Light was the most distant, eight days' sail to the northwest amongst rookeries of seals and sea lions and the boundless grey oceans. The Farwynds there were even queerer than the rest. Some said they were skinchangers, unholy creatures who could take on the forms of sea lions, walruses, even spotted whales, the wolves of the wild sea.

Lord Gylbert began to speak. He told of a wondrous land beyond the Sunset Sea, a land without winter or want, where death had no dominion. "Make me your king, and I shall lead you there," he cried. "We will build ten thousand ships as Nymeria once did and take sail with all our people to the land beyond the sunset. There every man shall be a king and every wife a queen."

His eyes, Aeron saw, were now grey, now blue, as changeable as the seas. Mad eyes, he thought, fool's eyes. The vision he spoke of was doubtless a snare set by the Storm God to lure the ironborn to destruction. The offerings that his men spilled out before the kingsmoot included sealskins and walrus tusks, arm rings made of whalebone, warhorns banded in bronze. The captains looked and turned away, leaving lesser men to help themselves to the gifts. When the fool was done talking and his champions began to shout his name, only the Farwynds took up the cry, and not even all of them. Soon enough the cries of "Gylbert! Gylbert King!" faded away to silence. The gull screamed loudly above them, and landed atop one of Nagga's ribs as the Lord of the Lonely Light made his way back down the hill.

The way the Damphair dismisses Gylbert Farwynd as a fool makes me wonder if he's not. A few interesting lines here in any case.

Mention of Ironborn skinchangers, wolves of the wild sea... This might really mix up canon re: Old Gods, if skinchanging is not specific to Men who worship them. Though the more I think about it, it makes sense that it is a different skill. Dany definitely had a psychic sort of connection going on with her eggs and dragons.

A land without winter, where death has no dominion... This sounds like a whole new continent. Interesting, though I hope we don't see it. It sounds like the opposite of Asshai. Another winter=death reference nonetheless.

I really, REALLY hope Martin avoids the temptation to waste our time with Dany conquering obscure lands full of bizarre names beyond the Sunset Sea LOL.

[Black Crow]

Fair enough. I said priests b/c that's how it works on the fire side, but it could certainly be a different arrangement. A key difference being that priests have free will and don't answer to a higher entity (except the god himself), while Janissaries sound more like footsoldiers- deadly, perhaps, but under someone else's command. So in other words, are they players or are they pieces?

Depends how narrowly you want to define them. I'd say that they are footsoldiers rather than players, but they do have a high degree of free will in how they interpret and carry out their orders. The two are not in the least incompatible.

[Black Crow]

One more thing. The Messenger is the Riddle, not the Riddler. Under the sea the crows are white as snow.

All the ravens (crows) are black until the season changes...

then white ravens are sent forth.

All the Brothers of the NW are black, until the season changes...

then white walkers are sent forth.

I do like the comparison with the ravens. Equating the walkers with rangers is something we've done before in heresy, but that's a very nice observation

[Voice]

I do like the comparison with the ravens. Equating the walkers with rangers is something we've done before in heresy, but that's a very nice observation

Thanks BC, I liked it :) but I tend to like a lot of things I say lol.

Here's another interesting bit from my reread today, So Spake Nimble Dick, from AFFC chapter 20 Brienne:

"Best we keep a watch tonight, m'lady," Crabb told her, as she was struggling to get a driftwood fire lit. "A place like this, there might be squishers."

"Squishers?" Brienne gave him a suspicious look.

"Monsters," Nimble Dick said, with relish. "They look like men till you get close, but their heads is too big, and they got scales where a proper man's got hair. Fish-belly white they are, with webs between their fingers. They're always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind these blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles. Some say the First Men killed them all, but don't you believe it. They come by night and steal bad little children, padding along on them webbed feet with a little squish-squish sound. The girls they keep to breed with, but the boys they eat, tearing at them with those sharp green teeth." He grinned at Podrick.

"They'd eat you, boy. They'd eat you raw."

"If they try, I'll kill them." Podrick touched his sword.

"You try that. You just try. Squishers don't die easy."

Might be our dead things in the water. Might be an other Other. Or likely I'm just trying in vain to find something that's actually interesting in a Brienne chapter! haha

[MaesterSam]

There can be no doubt the Wall exists to separate self from other. It is easy to defend, and I believe it does serve as the shield that guards the realms of men.

Full Disclamer: I do not subscribe to theories that isolate the purpose of the Watch from the purpose of the Wall. I think the Black Gate serves to disprove such arguments emphatically.

For hundreds of generations, Men of the NW believed they served to protect the realm from the wildlings beyond. That was their mistake, their true purpose lost and forgotten. I subscribe to the nonheretical view that Othor, Jafer, and the Fist reminded them of their true purpose. They are the watcher on the walls, the horn that wakes the sleepers. Their words are old, as old as the Wall in my view. 1 blast means rangers returning, 2 blasts mean human hostiles. 3 blasts of the horn means Others. I think they have always had to deal with human hostility, and so it remains a part of their code, but the Others are the ones that require the 700ft wall of Ice.

So back to the sentinels, they are always described like pine trees, in my mind's eye anyway. Martin describes them as hovering about. Though unmoving, they are ominous.

The 79 sentinels are also unmoving. They wore blacks, but were encased in white. It may be that they are the original white walkers. But, in my mind, it need not be limited to them.

If ww's are an equal and opposite reflection (like a photographic negative) of anyone, 'Men of the Night's Watch' would make the most sense -- particularly Night's Watchmen armed with Dragonglass.

Let's take a look at a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, armed with dragonglass.... What would be the opposite of a short, black, opaque, reflective, brittle dagger? I would think the negative reflection of a weapon like that would be something like a long, white, transparent, luminous, indestructible longsword.

Black Brothers turned to White Brothers. Black Rangers turned to White Walkers.

...allow me to prattle on a bit more...less coherently as I'm enjoying some very fine mead :D

While I do believe we do a disservice to CotF when we think of them as northern creatures, I do not think the same applies to Northmen and Others. The Wall divides them. The Neck divides them both from the rest of Westeros. The Broken Arm divides Westeros from Essos....etc. Back to the Wall, it divides the North from the NORTH.

I think there must always be a long-faced Stark in Winter-Fell, to provide a counterbalance with NK who resides in the lands of Winter-Always evermore. Starks live and die, while NK does not. Hence the need to pass on the duty of residence throughout the generations.

The Wall divides them. The Watch watches them, and defends itself with the Wall. We've already seen that the first attack upon the Wall in the series came from the South, not the North. And they quickly remembered how to adapt to the sudden change in orientation.

I think the Watch balances the forces of the north that be.

Now, I need to top off my goblet :cheers:

One more thing. The Messenger is the Riddle, not the Riddler. Under the sea the crows are white as snow.

All the ravens (crows) are black until the season changes...

then white ravens are sent forth.

All the Brothers of the NW are black, until the season changes...

then white walkers are sent forth.

This is very intriguing... though I can't claim to follow all of it. Are you saying the NW furnishes the ww's in wintertime? That they will defend the Wall in either direction, as needed? In the summer, black brother defend it against men, and in the winter ww's defend it against... the Others?

ps just to clarify, I don't think that the NW and the Wall are separate either. They go together, clearly. (As you pointed out, the Black Gate proves this). I am simply questioning whether the original purpose was indeed to defend the lands south of the Wall against the Others/ww's. The oath can be interpreted more than one way, IMO. "The shield that guards the realms of men" could be a force that prevents a war men can't win, for example. Or that prevents men from going North and learning magics that they could use to accidentally destroy themselves. Or it could be a much more ancient force than we know, protecting the North from something scary in the South, etc

The phrase "the horn that wakes the sleepers' always seemed a bit questionable/creepy to me. Who are the sleepers? On the Wall, there are only the brothers of the NW, so blowing a horn there would hardly serve to alert the population of the North.

Also, "the watchers on the walls" implies there was more than one Wall being guarded originally... etc.

But it seems to me you are questioning some of the traditional claims as well. I'd love to hear more of your theory when you get around to it!

[MaesterSam]

AFFC chapter 19 The Drowned Man

One unfurled his banner, a great black longship against a setting sun. "I am Gylbert Farwynd, Lord of the Lonely Light," the lord told the kingsmoot.

Aeron knew some Farwynds, a queer folk who held lands on the westernmost shores of Great Wyk and the scattered isles beyond, rocks so small that most could support but a single household. Of those, the Lonely Light was the most distant, eight days' sail to the northwest amongst rookeries of seals and sea lions and the boundless grey oceans. The Farwynds there were even queerer than the rest. Some said they were skinchangers, unholy creatures who could take on the forms of sea lions, walruses, even spotted whales, the wolves of the wild sea.

Lord Gylbert began to speak. He told of a wondrous land beyond the Sunset Sea, a land without winter or want, where death had no dominion. "Make me your king, and I shall lead you there," he cried. "We will build ten thousand ships as Nymeria once did and take sail with all our people to the land beyond the sunset. There every man shall be a king and every wife a queen."

His eyes, Aeron saw, were now grey, now blue, as changeable as the seas. Mad eyes, he thought, fool's eyes. The vision he spoke of was doubtless a snare set by the Storm God to lure the ironborn to destruction. The offerings that his men spilled out before the kingsmoot included sealskins and walrus tusks, arm rings made of whalebone, warhorns banded in bronze. The captains looked and turned away, leaving lesser men to help themselves to the gifts. When the fool was done talking and his champions began to shout his name, only the Farwynds took up the cry, and not even all of them. Soon enough the cries of "Gylbert! Gylbert King!" faded away to silence. The gull screamed loudly above them, and landed atop one of Nagga's ribs as the Lord of the Lonely Light made his way back down the hill.

The way the Damphair dismisses Gylbert Farwynd as a fool makes me wonder if he's not. A few interesting lines here in any case.

Mention of Ironborn skinchangers, wolves of the wild sea... This might really mix up canon re: Old Gods, if skinchanging is not specific to Men who worship them. Though the more I think about it, it makes sense that it is a different skill. Dany definitely had a psychic sort of connection going on with her eggs and dragons.

A land without winter, where death has no dominion... This sounds like a whole new continent. Interesting, though I hope we don't see it. It sounds like the opposite of Asshai. Another winter=death reference nonetheless.

I really, REALLY hope Martin avoids the temptation to waste our time with Dany conquering obscure lands full of bizarre names beyond the Sunset Sea LOL.

The Farwynds are interesting indeed. This is from the WB:

On the largest rock stands the keep of House Farwynd, named the Lonely Light for the beacon that blazes atop its roof day and night. Queer things are said of the Farwynds and the smallfolk they rule.

Some say they lie with seals to bring forth half-human children, whilst others whisper that they are skinchangers who can take the forms of sea lions, walrus, even spotted whales, the wolves of the western seas.

Strange tales like this are common at the edges of the world, however, and the Lonely Light stands farthest west of all the lands known to us. Many a bold mariner has sailed beyond the light of its beacon over the centuries, seeking the fabled paradise said to lie over the horizon, but the sailors who return (many do not) speak only of boundless grey oceans stretching on and on forever.

Again with the skinchanging, this time from the mouth of a maester. Also note the half-human children once again. These don't seem to be limited to the unions of Others and humans, but also occur in the Ironborn and, as we know, the Targaryens.

Another VERY interesting tidbit from the Iron Islands chapter:

Yet even more than the fisherman, ironborn esteem their reavers. “Wolves of the sea,” the men of the westerlands and riverlands named them in days of yore, and rightly. Like wolves, they oft hunted in packs, crossing stormy seas in their swift longships and descending on peaceful villages and towns up and down the shores of the Sunset Sea to raid, rob, and rape. Fearless sailors and fearsome fighters, they would appear out of the morning mists to do their bloody work and be back at sea before the sun had reached its zenith, their longships laden with plunder and crowded with wailing children and frightened women.

Hmmm. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

But my personal favorite:

The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze. The Grey King also taught men to weave nets and sails and carved the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh.

What do we have here??? A pale tree that feeds on human flesh? Clearly the ironborn were not aware that such trees are intended to be worshiped...

[DarkRose_9]

That bit from the WB sounds like Martin may have thrown in some Selkie mythology. Now that is literally skin-changing.

(Also, I'm thinking the spotted wales are the Westerosi equivalent of Leopard seals?)

ETA: Now that I'm thinking about selkies, I found an interesting site with info about selkies and fin folk: http://www.orkneyjar.com/folklore/selkiefolk/

The Fin folk seem to share some similarities with the quote below, particularly the wife stealing bit.

"Monsters," Nimble Dick said, with relish. "They look like men till you get close, but their heads is too big, and they got scales where a proper man's got hair. Fish-belly white they are, with webs between their fingers. They're always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind these blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles. Some say the First Men killed them all, but don't you believe it. They come by night and steal bad little children, padding along on them webbed feet with a little squish-squish sound. The girls they keep to breed with, but the boys they eat, tearing at them with those sharp green teeth."

[wolfmaid7]

@Maester's Sam

The idea that the WWs were the NW for the Winter was discussed on the Thread about Shadows listed on the Guide. One thing that was always thought of as weird was the functionality of the human Nights watch in a harsh winter.They would be pretty useless in those conditions, hell they may not even survive.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/111314-heresy-118-the-shadows/
@VOTFM I dig that analogy with the white and black ravens being symbolic of the white and black rangers.

[Black Crow]

So far as the black [summer] ravens and white [Winter] ravens are concerned its also worth bearing in mind that given the chance the two will fight each other - like black crows and white walkers?

[wolfmaid7]

So far as the black [summer] ravens and white [Winter] ravens are concerned its also worth bearing in mind that given the chance the two will fight each other - like black crows and white walkers?

That is true and i think that may happen for a time,but i'd like to add as a food for thought the story of how the people of Rhoynar prevailed.It is the same ideology of the two sides coming to an understanding and a pact.I still believe the wws were the watch for the longnight they are the only ones that can function in that environment effectivley. Its nice how you put the black ravens as the summer and the white as the winter.It puts possible purpose into prospective that maybe,just maybe the concept was to "share watch"

"According to these tales ,the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children-lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River -to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.WB,pg.11"

[Black Crow]

I'm not so sure there was any formality about it or any recognition that they were/are to share duties turn and turn about. I'd say that while there is or at least appears to be a duality in one set of crows being black and the other white the only commonality both in ravens and crows is that they fight, and unlike the present black lot who by general consent are fallen on hard times and are not what they once were - the white ones, as Osha very firmly declares, are in a different league. They've kept their edge.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not so sure there was any formality about it or any recognition that they were/are to share duties turn and turn about. I'd say that while there is or at least appears to be a duality in one set of crows being black and the other white the only commonality both in ravens and crows is that they fight, and unlike the present black lot who by general consent are fallen on hard times and are not what they once were - the white ones, as Osha very firmly declares, are in a different league. They've kept their edge.

I kinda agree only because of uncertainty regarding any pacts. That being said ,just that it might work well for proposed resolution on the future.

[MaesterSam]

@Maester's Sam

The idea that the WWs were the NW for the Winter was discussed on the Thread about Shadows listed on the Guide. One thing that was always thought of as weird was the functionality of the human Nights watch in a harsh winter.They would be pretty useless in those conditions, hell they may not even survive.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/111314-heresy-118-the-shadows/

@VOTFM I dig that analogy with the white and black ravens being symbolic of the white and black rangers.

Thanks, wolfmaid! I'll get caught up and then join back in :)

[Black Crow]

I kinda agree only because of uncertainty regarding any pacts. That being said ,just that it might work well for proposed resolution on the future.

In theory I suppose that might be possible, but I don't really see it. I think for the white lot its simply a matter of Winter is coming and so are we. Win or lose Craster's boys are just the tools of someone else and its at that higher level this will be resolved rather than by balancing the white and black rangers.

[Black Crow]

Vlad Dracula was a Janissary. Perhaps even a little King of Winterish in his harsh treatment of people (Ottomans and Christians alike) in his pursuit of his dominion. The Starks as the Kings of Winter might have been similarly hard men. Perhaps one of them was hard enough to earn the distinction of the Night King for resisting the Andals as Dracula was for impaling Ottomans.

Except that oddly enough the battles and conquests related in the Kings of Winter chapter of the World Book are all about the Starks gaining dominion over the other Kingdoms of the First Men in the North - not about fighting the Andals. It rather gives the impression that by the time they got around to fighting the Andals they had conquered the lot and dropped the Kings of Winter title in favour of Kings in the North.

[Urrax2]

The film festival is February 27. And I agree with the idea that GRRM will deflect most any question that would reveal any of the mysteries he's laying out. My other limitation is that my wife told me I can't embarrass her at this event. So that takes out the majority of the questions I'd love to ask him.

Would she be embarrassed if you asked him "What the ^&*(#$ are you doing killing time at a film festival instead of finishing the __)((**&%^& story?"

[Black Crow]

Probably