Heresy 143 Winter Solstice Edition

[wolfmaid7]

All the different tales of who put an end to the Long Night/Winter; the Rhoynar singing, the woman with the monkey tale, the Last Hero, Battle for the Dawn etc. Who's the real hero?

I said it long ago, did anyone bring about the end of the Long Night?

Someones definitely used the darkness and cold and probably exploited it, but it may be that the season finally turned without outside influence as the seasons always change eventually.

If the WB is to believed several civilization spoke of a Longnight or some form of Darkness.I'm not entirely sure it wasn't the same event.We know people from Westeros fled across the sea and I doubt there was a blackout when it came to communication.So it might be the same event with just different endings.

[wolfmaid7]

Seeing as i won't be around tommorrow,i wanted to wish every one Happy Yule. Peace and blessings to the hearth and homes of my fellow Heretics..Love u guys :grouphug:

"From the darkness is born the light, From void, fulfillment emerges... The darkest night of the year's at the threshold, Open now the door, and honor the darkness.Hark! Behold the Rebirth of the King of the Woodlands! Behold the Oak King, strong and vital he rises! Awake now Thy Mother, Thy Lover, Thy Lady - Awake now Thy Goddess of Life, Death, and Rebirth."

[addicted to snow]

“One day, Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.”

That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them.

This was no mistake... Jon will be the 'bad guy' by the end of TWoW...

[wolfmaid7]

This was no mistake... Jon will be the 'bad guy' by the end of TWoW...

If i may interject,i don't get or see how you've arrived at your conclusion from that quote.How does Jon's association with death equates him being "the bad guy" what leads you to believe death and him being intertwined with it means evil?

"A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.”That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them."

[addicted to snow]

If i may interject,i don't get or see how you've arrived at your conclusion from that quote.How does Jon's association with death equates him being "the bad guy" what leads you to believe death and him being intertwined with it means evil?

"A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.”That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them."

I think jon will be bad because that is where GRRM is going... This supports it...

But Jon is the 'big bad guy' with or without the observation in question...

[King Tyrion XX]

I think jon will be bad because that is where GRRM is going... This supports it...

But Jon is the 'big bad guy' with or without the observation in question...

Can you elaborate?

[wolfmaid7]

I think jon will be bad because that is where GRRM is going... This supports it...

But Jon is the 'big bad guy' with or without the observation in question...

ATS that quote does not in anyway prove or foreshadow Jon going bad.It only reinforces the very strong death imagery and theme that surrounds him.Again death does not denote evil.How do you make the leap that because of this Jon "will" be evil. Not perceived as or demonized actually become .Where is the connecting thread?

Sure he will become the figurehead for the death cycle yeah but that's different.So what has been inferred textual now for you to come up with "evil Jon?"

[Black Crow]

Okay, fellow long time lurker feeling emboldened here. I've been coming here on and off since early last year. When I first came here, I was completely mystified by Heresy, but having read ASOIAF three times now, as well as D&E and the World Book, I see that Heresy thinking is most in line with my own as I've come to have a much more firm and holistic grasp of the material (though far from omniscient).

So let me spout off some half baked ideas and let me know what you guys think (or point to any relevant Heresy threads where these ideas have been discussed.) So, I found the recent discussion on the Tourney at Harrenhal fascinating. At this point in my ASOIAF fandom I'm nearly 100% convinced that Lyanna is Jon Snow's mother. What I am much more skeptical of is that Rhaegar is his father...

Welcome to heresy - as a participant - please do continue joining in because that was a splendid and well-thought out post.

As you'll have gathered there's a pretty general acceptance in these here parts that Lya Stark was Jon's mother and a strong suspicion that if Rhaegar was his father the importance of that is over-stated, ie; that if R+L=J is true then it is far more important that Jon - as Maester Aemon so forcefully points out - is a son of Winterfell rather than a lost Targaryen heir. There are of course some who doubt that Rhaegar was the father and arguably if it is indeed more important that Lyanna was Jon's mother, it might not matter - unless [and this could be the important bit] it was, as you suggest, Ser Arthur Dayne, because there we get into very interesting territory not only in providing another reason for Ned Stark to go to Starfall after the business in the Prince's Pass but because of this business of the Sword of the Morning and how sword and title are only passed to those deemed worthy of it. Moreover whilst there is an assumption in the broader world that a union of Targaryen Fire and Stark Ice is needed to resolve this, the former are only recent interlopers to Westeros while the Daynes go back as far as the Starks.

Now all that being said there are questions to be considered as to how this actually fits in with Rhaegar running off to Dorne for so long, but it remains a very attractive theory with a lot of food for thought and discussion.

[superunknown5]

Welcome to heresy - as a participant - please do continue joining in because that was a splendid and well-thought out post.

As you'll have gathered there's a pretty general acceptance in these here parts that Lya Stark was Jon's mother and a strong suspicion that if Rhaegar was his father the importance of that is over-stated, ie; that if R+L=J is true then it is far more important that Jon - as Maester Aemon so forcefully points out - is a son of Winterfell rather than a lost Targaryen heir. There are of course some who doubt that Rhaegar was the father and arguably if it is indeed more important that Lyanna was Jon's mother, it might not matter - unless [and this could be the important bit] it was, as you suggest, Ser Arthur Dayne, because there we get into very interesting territory not only in providing another reason for Ned Stark to go to Starfall after the business in the Prince's Pass but because of this business of the Sword of the Morning and how sword and title are only passed to those deemed worthy of it. Moreover whilst there is an assumption in the broader world that a union of Targaryen Fire and Stark Ice is needed to resolve this, the former are only recent interlopers to Westeros while the Daynes go back as far as the Starks.

Now all that being said there are questions to be considered as to how this actually fits in with Rhaegar running off to Dorne for so long, but it remains a very attractive theory with a lot of food for thought and discussion.

Thanks. Yes. I fully admit the I didn't consider the actual logistics of this idea. I always just had a sense that the Daynes were extremely central to this whole drama somehow. Plus I always thought it was strange that the Tower of Joy is Dorne, rather than say on or near Dragonstone.

[Black Crow]

The tower in the Prince's Pass is probably going to turn out to be one of the biggest red herrings in the whole series, here's my own earlier analysis:

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM:

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

So there’s something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Ned’s thoughts on waking. He’s not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think there’s a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. It’s too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRM’s warning. That then leaves Lyanna.

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death afterwards, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

Hold that thought and consider, because transferring Lyanna to Starfall actually resolves a lot of practical problems. After the fight at the tower, Ned and Howland bury their dead and then do carry on to Starfall, ostensibly to return Ser Arthur Dayne’s sword:

So suppose there they are told that Lyanna is dying. Ned goes to her alone and sits with her long after she has died. Eventually Howland and some of the others intrude upon his grief and take him away so that the body can be washed and prepared for the long journey home.

It’s not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not after all a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.

Re-locating Lyanna to Starfall on the other hand gives us an explanation for Ned and Howland travelling there after burying the dead. It explains the presence of “others” when Lyanna dies and afterwards shipping both straight home from Starfall similarly makes a lot more sense than making a detour to Starfall from the Dornish Marches with a corpse and a suckling babe. After all, are we really expected to believe that having found a dying Lyanna and a new-born babe in an old tower at the northern end of the pass, Ned then took them both all the way round by Starfall to tip the chivalrous bit and return Arthur's sword? A splendid thing to do in years after, with lots of precedent, but at that point in time he surely had far more pressing things to worry about; which suggests there was a far more important reason for going there.

All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?

Again it’s worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

Again hold this for a moment, because there’s a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar. Exactly what that order was we don’t know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didn’t like. It’s also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.

Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys’ summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, not improbably leading those 10,000 Dornishmen, later commanded at the Trident by Lewyn Martell. However before returning he in turn orders Hightower, Dayne and Whent to remain behind. I’ll discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegar’s own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.

So let’s look at what happens:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, he has usurped the throne, they acknowledge that he is now the King, they just refuse to recognise him.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

Here Aerys is their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour do not allow it. That's straightforward, but if the infant Jon Snow was their king, whom they were protecting, there would be no question of them bending the knee to anybody but him in the first place

If we separate Lyanna from the tower, there is nothing in the exchange with the Kingsguard to suggest that they are guarding anybody; whether Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow or even, the gods help us, Aegon Targaryen.

Conversely if we read everything as an encounter on the road - the only road - between the three knights heading north from Starfall and Ned Stark heading south to Starfall, the language makes sense, Ned's recollection of burying them [when he's awake] makes sense, his journey to Starfall afterwards makes sense, his recollection of the dying Lya, not at a lonely watchtower but in Starfall makes sense, and so too his learning there that Rhaegar called the place where they all died the tower of joy.

So why are they at the tower?

The obvious answer is that it’s a landmark and human nature being what it is their eyes will be drawn to it – as will Ned’s.

As to why they are going to fight, whatever the reason for his absence, Rhaegar was gone from Kings Landing for some time. Given the way things went when he re-appeared I think it’s reasonable that he came north with those 10,000 Dornishmen and that learning of them Aerys despatched Martell to command them. Whether Martell and Rhaegar met on the road, or passed each other en route probably doesn't much matter, but what does is that remark about Rhaegar recognising "in the end" that Aerys was mad.

There has been a lot of serious discussion about Rhaegar’s possible involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but it’s a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.

Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.

It is more like the OK corral than the defence of Kings Landing.

We're actually given some very strong clues as to this. They speak of their king, Aerys, who they failed by being far away. They refer to Bob as the Usurper, because he has usurped the throne. He is the King now. Then both Viserys and Danaerys refer to Ned as the usurper's dog. He is recognised as Bob's right-hand man and just as responsible for everything that has happened.

The knights also speak of Jaime Lanister with some understandable venom and how he should burn in seven hells

And then there's the final exchange: "And now it begins..." to which Ned replies no, "Now it ends..."

That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him. This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list. But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already died. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

[Black Crow]

Now as to where your own theory fits into this, there are both problems and opportunities.

Casting Jon as Ser Arthur Dayne's son doesn't explain why Whent, and in particular Hightower were also there with him. If Ser Arthur had indeed failed in his duty because he was in love with Lyanna that would explain his bitterness and guilt but not theirs. So where do they fit in, why weren't they either at Kings Landing or the Trident and why therefore did it fall to Ser Willem Darry to escort the Queen and Prince Viserys [seeming named heir after Rhaegar got his] to Dragonstone?

This isn't necessarily an insurmountable obstacle given that Jon was just a bump of unknown gender when Rhaegar left them in Dorne but it is an obstacle nevertheless, unless you go with my own theory Rhaegar left them behind to keep Hightower out of King's Landing - until the realisation of what they had done - Aerys as a result being dead rather than simply set aside and if necessary confined.

So yes, the logistics need to be sorted out and can perhaps be sorted out, but I remain as always wary of building too great or rather too convoluted a Gordian Knot to explain things

[Black Crow]

Thanks. Yes. I fully admit the I didn't consider the actual logistics of this idea. I always just had a sense that the Daynes were extremely central to this whole drama somehow. Plus I always thought it was strange that the Tower of Joy is Dorne, rather than say on or near Dragonstone.

As to that I think there is a simple reason. If all this was simply about Rhaegar abducting Lyanna then Dragonstone would be a more sensible destination, but there's also the question of Dornish support for the intended coup. There were 10,000 Dornishmen led by Prince Lewen Martell serving under Rhaegar at the Trident, a very large proportion of the army. Its argued that they would have no qualms about following Rhaegar despite his having seemingly abandoned Elia and her children - because the Dornish are relaxed about paramours! He and said "paramour" of course have chosen to come come and hide out in Dorne - really?

[superunknown5]

I unearthed a little bit more text which I think is germane to my Arthur Dayne post.

It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years...

...When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody.

"All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." - Jaime, AFFC

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. - Eddard, AGoT

With Dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. - Jaime, AFFC

He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold... - Jon, ADwD

A boy knelt. A knight rose. The Young Lion, not the Kingslayer. But that was long ago, and the boy was dead. - Jaime AFFC

A night rose? (Okay, that might be a stretch)

"Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born." - Jon, ADwD

When the devout had filed out, the Great Sept grew still once more. The candles were a wall of stars burning in the darkness, though the air was rank with death. - Jaime, AFFC

There seems to be a strong textual connection between Jaime, Jon, and Arthur Dayne.

[Black Crow]

I have to say that I've never been a fan of this kind of textual analysis. Whilst different characters are involved at the end of the day all of it is written by GRRM and repetition of words and phrases is an occupational hazard of anyone's writing style. Speaking as a professional writer [non-fiction] one of the things I need to do periodically is comb through my text to weed out too much repetition of this kind, so I'd say that what we see here and in so much of the wishful thinking on the R+L=J threads is just GRRM's habitual style rather than carefully crafted insertions.

[King Tyrion XX]

The tower in the Prince's Pass is probably going to turn out to be one of the biggest red herrings in the whole series, here's my own earlier analysis:

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM:

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

So theres something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Neds thoughts on waking. Hes not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think theres a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. Its too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRMs warning. That then leaves Lyanna.

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his fever dream Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyannas death afterwards, not in an old watchtower in the Princes Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

Hold that thought and consider, because transferring Lyanna to Starfall actually resolves a lot of practical problems. After the fight at the tower, Ned and Howland bury their dead and then do carry on to Starfall, ostensibly to return Ser Arthur Daynes sword:

So suppose there they are told that Lyanna is dying. Ned goes to her alone and sits with her long after she has died. Eventually Howland and some of the others intrude upon his grief and take him away so that the body can be washed and prepared for the long journey home.

Its not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not after all a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.

Re-locating Lyanna to Starfall on the other hand gives us an explanation for Ned and Howland travelling there after burying the dead. It explains the presence of others when Lyanna dies and afterwards shipping both straight home from Starfall similarly makes a lot more sense than making a detour to Starfall from the Dornish Marches with a corpse and a suckling babe. After all, are we really expected to believe that having found a dying Lyanna and a new-born babe in an old tower at the northern end of the pass, Ned then took them both all the way round by Starfall to tip the chivalrous bit and return Arthur's sword? A splendid thing to do in years after, with lots of precedent, but at that point in time he surely had far more pressing things to worry about; which suggests there was a far more important reason for going there.

All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?

Again its worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

Again hold this for a moment, because theres a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar. Exactly what that order was we dont know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didnt like. Its also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.

Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, not improbably leading those 10,000 Dornishmen, later commanded at the Trident by Lewyn Martell. However before returning he in turn orders Hightower, Dayne and Whent to remain behind. Ill discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegars own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.

So lets look at what happens:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, he has usurped the throne, they acknowledge that he is now the King, they just refuse to recognise him.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

Here Aerys is their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour do not allow it. That's straightforward, but if the infant Jon Snow was their king, whom they were protecting, there would be no question of them bending the knee to anybody but him in the first place

If we separate Lyanna from the tower, there is nothing in the exchange with the Kingsguard to suggest that they are guarding anybody; whether Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow or even, the gods help us, Aegon Targaryen.

Conversely if we read everything as an encounter on the road - the only road - between the three knights heading north from Starfall and Ned Stark heading south to Starfall, the language makes sense, Ned's recollection of burying them [when he's awake] makes sense, his journey to Starfall afterwards makes sense, his recollection of the dying Lya, not at a lonely watchtower but in Starfall makes sense, and so too his learning there that Rhaegar called the place where they all died the tower of joy.

So why are they at the tower?

The obvious answer is that its a landmark and human nature being what it is their eyes will be drawn to it as will Neds.

As to why they are going to fight, whatever the reason for his absence, Rhaegar was gone from Kings Landing for some time. Given the way things went when he re-appeared I think its reasonable that he came north with those 10,000 Dornishmen and that learning of them Aerys despatched Martell to command them. Whether Martell and Rhaegar met on the road, or passed each other en route probably doesn't much matter, but what does is that remark about Rhaegar recognising "in the end" that Aerys was mad.

There has been a lot of serious discussion about Rhaegars possible involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but its a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.

Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.

It is more like the OK corral than the defence of Kings Landing.

We're actually given some very strong clues as to this. They speak of their king, Aerys, who they failed by being far away. They refer to Bob as the Usurper, because he has usurped the throne. He is the King now. Then both Viserys and Danaerys refer to Ned as the usurper's dog. He is recognised as Bob's right-hand man and just as responsible for everything that has happened.

The knights also speak of Jaime Lanister with some understandable venom and how he should burn in seven hells

And then there's the final exchange: "And now it begins..." to which Ned replies no, "Now it ends..."

That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but its of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him. This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list. But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already died. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

You ever post this in RLJ? Theyd have a fit.

[DarkRose_9]

I unearthed a little bit more text which I think is germane to my Arthur Dayne post.

A night rose? (Okay, that might be a stretch)

There seems to be a strong textual connection between Jaime, Jon, and Arthur Dayne.

I've been looking a bit more at the segment on House Dayne in the WB. It would appear that their ancestral sword was forged from a comet or some sort of "falling star" (forgive my lack of knowledge of astronomical terms). Since Ice has been reforged, if Jons parentage is indeed of the Daynes then their house sword may come into play in some way - another psuedo lightbringer prehaps?

[Frey family reunion]

I think the real disconnect is between Ned's conscious memories of Lyanna's last moments and between his dreams of Lyanna's last moments. At some point I'll go through the quotes to further support it, but basically when you read his conscious memories of Jon and Lyanna and the promise, Ned expresses a sadness of what occurred, and a shame he felt for not telling Jon his parentage. All well and good. It seems to support the prevailing notion that Ned promised Lyanna to take care of the boy (which he did), and a shame/sadness that he had to lie to the boy to protect him.

But then when Eddard dreams of his promise to Lyanna, it seems to be a different story. It's not sadness or shame that he feels during these dreams, but instead it appears to be horror. He also seems to wake just as Lyanna starts to elicit the promise from Ned. In a way it reminds me of Bran's dreams, that surround his climb up the first keep and his inability to come to grips with the two golden figures that push him from the tower.

One other thing that bothers me about "the promise". After Ned's death, Bran dreams of his father trying to tell him something about Jon. Bran doesn't remember what it was only that it was disturbing. Under the prevailing theory about Jon's origins and Lyanna's promise, why would this information be something that Bran finds disturbing? Something doesn't add up.

At one point Jon recalls Eddard telling him that it requires bravery to face an unpleasant truth. I wonder if Eddard has the same problem and for some reason can't bring himself to accurately recall the actual promise that Lyanna tried to elicit from him.

[superunknown5]

I have to say that I've never been a fan of this kind of textual analysis. Whilst different characters are involved at the end of the day all of it is written by GRRM and repetition of words and phrases is an occupational hazard of anyone's writing style. Speaking as a professional writer [non-fiction] one of the things I need to do periodically is comb through my text to weed out too much repetition of this kind, so I'd say that what we see here and in so much of the wishful thinking on the R+L=J threads is just GRRM's habitual style rather than carefully crafted insertions.

You're right of course, these are pretty thin. Just reading the tea leaves. Though I do think the Blood is the seal of our devotion/Blood-streaked sky bit is pretty solid (if only a coincidence).

[Black Crow]

You ever post this in RLJ? Theyd have a fit.

Oh yes indeed - and a classic case of denial ensued

:devil:

[Black Crow]

But then when Eddard dreams of his promise to Lyanna, it seems to be a different story. It's not sadness or shame that he feels during these dreams, but instead it appears to be horror. He also seems to wake just as Lyanna starts to elicit the promise from Ned. In a way it reminds me of Bran's dreams, that surround his climb up the first keep and his inability to come to grips with the two golden figures that push him from the tower.

An interesting observation. Ned is her brother so why so insistent on him promising something when looking after and protecting her child should be a given.