Heresy 143 Winter Solstice Edition

[Black Crow]

Seriously though, once again I feel we need to work this through methodically.

First the prologue: Will discovers a wildling encampment in which everyone is lying dead, without any signs of a struggle. They appear to have frozen to death very suddenly. But there they are lying dead. Its still daylight at this point but by the time he leads Ser Waymar back there its gone dark. The stars are out and the dead have walked off. This is consistent with the later business of Othor and Jafer who are discovered lying dead, but then walk once it gets cold and dark. Its also consistent with the other appearances by wights later, always after sunset in failing light or full darkness. Its reasonable therefore to say that they are of the night and the darkness, just as described by the wildlings.

Then there's Craster's boys, always accompanied by an intense cold, just as someone coming into a room from the frost and snow outside will be accompanied by a pocket of cold air so intense and localised that they and their clothing appear to be radiating cold. The point being though that its their cold, they bring it, its not something separate, but it is a magic cold which animates them and like the flame passed on by Thoros and then Beric to raise the dead their cold can be passed on to raise the wights.

Now as to the wights once risen, there does appear to be an element of control but that I think depends on what's being controlled and why. There are references to them being able to smell hot blood and this might explain why although the white walkers are firmly associated with the armies of the slain they don't appear to be leading the charge. On one level of course its unnecessary because being dead they's not going to respond to brave banners fluttering in the wind or anything of that kind. However if they are essentially heat seeking they can then be controlled from behind. If Ser Puddles was leading from in front then his cold aura would effectively shield the target. Conversely by riding behind [on his dead horse] he is helping to channel them in the right direction simply by being cold and therefore focusing them on the desired heat signature in front.

Othor and Jafer respond a little differently. Jafer just seems to have lashed out at anything warm. Othor, to start with at least, seems to have a more sophisticated purpose but how much we're supposed to read into this I don't know. I strongly suspect that GRRM has not troubled to think it through because all that matters is that Othor tried to assassinate Mormont. Even if he was being actively controlled there's a clear difference between controlling an individual and a crowd.

At first sight the business of Small Paul and the garron referenced by Wolfmaid while I was writing this might also seem odd but is actually easily explained. At first the garron was calm, but as soon as "she balked rearing and began lashing at the frosty air..." her heat signature will have dramatically risen not because she was frightened per se but rather because she was suddenly snorting and blowing significant quantities of hot air from her mouth and nostrils and perhaps farting as well. In other words she became a much bigger heat signature.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

@wolfmaid7

The elk is a trained beast of burden and not a wight.

What about being a skilled swordsman? Or should I say swordswalker. I think the prologue showed the WW to be pretty good at it. Although the lightweight swords probably help. Ser Puddles changed from solid to to vapor and liquid.

How does being a skinchanger relate to being undefeated? MaNY of them have been defeated and murdered over the centuries. Anyway I was saying skinchanger or similar ability. There is some way the wighted humans and animals are being controlled.

As far as proof of enemies goes, there is the whole fight of the Fist aftermath. The Watchmen fleeing the Fist are being picked off as they retreat. Picked off by at least one white walker.

The guys in the back of the group fleeing from the Fist were picked off while retreating. We didn't know who the culprit was until we got a POV, Sam, at the back of the group. And who showed up? A white walker with sword in hand riding a dead horse that belonged to the Night Watchman killed at the Fist.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Seriously though, once again I feel we need to work this through methodically.

First the prologue: Will discovers a wildling encampment in which everyone is lying dead, without any signs of a struggle. They appear to have frozen to death very suddenly. But there they are lying dead. Its still daylight at this point but by the time he leads Ser Waymar back there its gone dark. The stars are out and the dead have walked off. This is consistent with the later business of Othor and Jafer who are discovered lying dead, but then walk once it gets cold and dark. Its also consistent with the other appearances by wights later, always after sunset in failing light or full darkness. Its reasonable therefore to say that they are of the night and the darkness, just as described by the wildlings.

Then there's Craster's boys, always accompanied by an intense cold, just as someone coming into a room from the frost and snow outside will be accompanied by a pocket of cold air so intense and localised that they and their clothing appear to be radiating cold. The point being though that its their cold, they bring it, its not something separate, but it is a magic cold which animates them and like the flame passed on by Thoros and then Beric to raise the dead their cold can be passed on to raise the wights.

Now as to the wights once risen, there does appear to be an element of control but that I think depends on what's being controlled and why. There are references to them being able to smell hot blood and this might explain why although the white walkers are firmly associated with the armies of the slain they don't appear to be leading the charge. On one level of course its unnecessary because being dead they's not going to respond to brave banners fluttering in the wind or anything of that kind. However if they are essentially heat seeking they can then be controlled from behind. If Ser Puddles was leading from in front then his cold aura would effectively shield the target. Conversely by riding behind [on his dead horse] he is helping to channel them in the right direction simply by being cold and therefore focusing them on the desired heat signature in front.

Othor and Jafer respond a little differently. Jafer just seems to have lashed out at anything warm. Othor, to start with at least, seems to have a more sophisticated purpose but how much we're supposed to read into this I don't know. I strongly suspect that GRRM has not troubled to think it through because all that matters is that Othor tried to assassinate Mormont. Even if he was being actively controlled there's a clear difference between controlling an individual and a crowd.

At first sight the business of Small Paul and the garron referenced by Wolfmaid while I was writing this might also seem odd but is actually easily explained. At first the garron was calm, but as soon as "she balked rearing and began lashing at the frosty air..." her heat signature will have dramatically risen not because she was frightened per se but rather because she was suddenly snorting and blowing significant quantities of hot air from her mouth and nostrils and perhaps farting as well. In other words she became a much bigger heat signature.

Well said. I like it. But I think there must be a little more to herding a large group of wights as in pushing them into a group and aiming them in the right direction before turning them loose and letting their killer instincts take over.

[Matthew.]

Hmm. I always assumed that Wight Small Paul's sudden shift in interest away from Sam had less to do with the horse, and more to do with the fact that, through the horse acting up, he then becomes aware of Gilly and, more significantly, Craster's newborn son.

[wolfmaid7]

OT: Why is this the solstice edition? Seems a little early for that; am I missing something? :huh:

GRRM via twitter has promised a suprise on the Solstice so we are keeping our fingers crossed its something juicy.

[wolfmaid7]

@wolfmaid7

The elk is a trained beast of burden and not a wight.

What about being a skilled swordsman? Or should I say swordswalker. I think the prologue showed the WW to be pretty good at it. Although the lightweight swords probably help. Ser Puddles changed from solid to to vapor and liquid.

How does being a skinchanger relate to being undefeated? MaNY of them have been defeated and murdered over the centuries. Anyway I was saying skinchanger or similar ability. There is some way the wighted humans and animals are being controlled.

As far as proof of enemies goes, there is the whole fight of the Fist aftermath. The Watchmen fleeing the Fist are being picked off as they retreat. Picked off by at least one white walker.

The guys in the back of the group fleeing from the Fist were picked off while retreating. We didn't know who the culprit was until we got a POV, Sam, at the back of the group. And who showed up? A white walker with sword in hand riding a dead horse that belonged to the Night Watchman killed at the Fist.

You missed completely what i'm saying,completely....

The elk most likely is another thralled animal via regular skinchanging powers. If it was not being controlled by another ( not wighting just regular skinchanging) it would not have stand CH's cold smell. Regular animals can't stand it,so it was there because it was probaby another familiar.

As to the wws i'm saying we are turning them into this monster on steroids adding more and more amazing feats in hopes to explain things that don't make sense or we ignore period.In the end we end up with what i described.

I still disagree with you on all points....sorry. It just doesn't make sense in light of not having any,or all of the picture.

[Black Crow]

Well said. I like it. But I think there must be a little more to herding a large group of wights as in pushing them into a group and aiming them in the right direction before turning them loose and letting their killer instincts take over.

Not necessarily, all that it requires is for them to be move towards heat and away from cold. All it then means is Craster's boys riding herd on them.

[Black Crow]

You missed completely what i'm saying,completely....

The elk most likely is another thralled animal via regular skinchanging powers. If it was not being controlled by another ( not wighting just regular skinchanging) it would not have stand CH's cold smell. Regular animals can't stand it,so it was there because it was probaby another familiar.

I think that introducing Coldhands and his elk is confusing the argument a little because he's neither a wight nor a walker and the elk wasn't dead when they started out. Whatever was going on there was not the same as Craster's boys sitting on top of dead horses or any other large dead animals.

[Matthew.]

About the wights:

When it comes to 'interpreting' the wights, I find myself often going back to the Varamyr prologue, and its ending, with Thistle, and Varamyr inside of One Eye:

"And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.
She sees me."

Two things. First, I'm pretty sure GRRM intended that to be a chilling final line to the chapter, thus, I suspect when Varamyr thinks "She sees me," he's not talking about Thistle seeing One-Eye the wolf, he means that whatever is looking through the ruins of Thistle's eyes 'sees' Varamyr the skinchanger, inside of One-Eye. And, not coincidentally IMHO, earlier in the chapter Varamyr makes sure to inform us that skinchangers can always recognize other skinchangers.

Second, an interesting difference between Thistle and Royce. Royce's one ruined eye lacks the burning wight blue, whereas Thistle's ruined eye sockets still go wight blue; the significance being that Royce's ruined eye has fragments of his sword embedded in it. As BC pointed out when Royce's eye was brought up in the previous thread, this may point to the notion that iron can indeed 'bind' whatever magic is at work here.

[wolfmaid7]

Hmm. I always assumed that Wight Small Paul's sudden shift in interest away from Sam had less to do with the horse, and more to do with the fact that, through the horse acting up, he then becomes aware of Gilly and, more significantly, Craster's newborn son.

Seriously though, once again I feel we need to work this through methodically.

Then there's Craster's boys, always accompanied by an intense cold, just as someone coming into a room from the frost and snow outside will be accompanied by a pocket of cold air so intense and localised that they and their clothing appear to be radiating cold. The point being though that its their cold, they bring it, its not something separate, but it is a magic cold which animates them and like the flame passed on by Thoros and then Beric to raise the dead their cold can be passed on to raise the wights.

Now as to the wights once risen, there does appear to be an element of control but that I think depends on what's being controlled and why. There are references to them being able to smell hot blood and this might explain why although the white walkers are firmly associated with the armies of the slain they don't appear to be leading the charge. On one level of course its unnecessary because being dead they's not going to respond to brave banners fluttering in the wind or anything of that kind. However if they are essentially heat seeking they can then be controlled from behind. If Ser Puddles was leading from in front then his cold aura would effectively shield the target. Conversely by riding behind [on his dead horse] he is helping to channel them in the right direction simply by being cold and therefore focusing them on the desired heat signature in front.

Othor and Jafer respond a little differently. Jafer just seems to have lashed out at anything warm. Othor, to start with at least, seems to have a more sophisticated purpose but how much we're supposed to read into this I don't know. I strongly suspect that GRRM has not troubled to think it through because all that matters is that Othor tried to assassinate Mormont. Even if he was being actively controlled there's a clear difference between controlling an individual and a crowd.

At first sight the business of Small Paul and the garron referenced by Wolfmaid while I was writing this might also seem odd but is actually easily explained. At first the garron was calm, but as soon as "she balked rearing and began lashing at the frosty air..." her heat signature will have dramatically risen not because she was frightened per se but rather because she was suddenly snorting and blowing significant quantities of hot air from her mouth and nostrils and perhaps farting as well. In other words she became a much bigger heat signature.

Again BC so much holes in this and so much holes in Nan's story,things that reasoning explains away.

1. Nan says in her stories that the wights are able to "smell the hot blood of people" unless she had a conversation with a Wight,that whole line of thinking is purely speculative and nothing more than an embelishment.This is what the character believes now and its not measureable as fact.So anything about heat sig and smelling hot blood is nothing more than a belief.

2. As to the cold that the wws emit that's it,we know from the proximity that their cold is localized to them.It does not vary and is constant.Its not magical its comes off of them as heat comes off of us and you mention it as being when someone walks into a room. I agree.

I'm saying the cold they emit was not responsible for the dead wildlings because the cold emitted by 6 of them wasn't able to put down Waymar's party. The wights on the other hand when they attacked the Fist from Chett's point of view we know the effect that cold had.

[Black Crow]

My story and I'm sticking with it. This is a story of a world where the dead walk and dragons fly. Reason has no chance so I'm sticking with my interrpetation of the text. :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

ETA: spelling - its well past my bedtime so goodnight all

[wolfmaid7]

I think that introducing Coldhands and his elk is confusing the argument a little because he's neither a wight nor a walker and the elk wasn't dead when they started out. Whatever was going on there was not the same as Craster's boys sitting on top of dead horses or any other large dead animals.

You guys are still missing the i'm not making that arguement . The arguement i am making is as follows:

1. CH's smells queer,what have we seen from animals in terms of their reaction to that scent? Therefore,the Elk is someone's familiar that's it.Be in CH or BR that Elk had it been normal would have bolted.I'm not saying it is a wight,it is clearly not i'm saying it is a familiar.So what's going on is the abilities that come with Skinchanging.

2.I do not think Ser Puddles on a dead horse prooves raising and control because we have precedence that riding a familar doesn't mean you i fact control it.

[wolfmaid7]

My story and I'm sticking with it. This is a story of a world where the dead walk and dragons fly. Reason has no chance so I'm sticking with my interrpetation of the text. :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

ETA: spelling - its well past my bedtime so goodnight all

Then we are both holding to our interpretations. See you in the morning.

[Matthew.]

When it comes to holes in a story, there's a difference between absence of information, and contradictory information.

With the wights and the WWs, unless I've greatly misremembered the story, the text has yet to contradict the notion that the WWs lead the wights. Instead, the argument that one might not be associated with the other is, at best, based on absence of information--an absence stemming from the fact that we've only personally seen the WWs twice.

Having said that...both share the same burning blue eyes, and the notion that the WWs lead the wights is the standard version in the tales. Not just Old Nan's tales, but recent tales from the Wildlings. Finally, we have the attack on the Fist, three horn blows for the Others, and the aftermath, with Ser Puddles riding up on the dead horse of a man that had just died at the Fist.

That all of this might be a great misdirect is certainly possible, but clearly GRRM has structured information in such a way that we are to logically infer that the WWs are the masters of the wights.

[Black Crow]

:agree:

must go to bed... must...

[DarkRose_9]

Again BC so much holes in this and so much holes in Nan's story,things that reasoning explains away.

1. Nan says in her stories that the wights are able to "smell the hot blood of people" unless she had a conversation with a Wight,that whole line of thinking is purely speculative and nothing more than an embelishment.This is what the character believes now and its not measureable as fact.So anything about heat sig and smelling hot blood is nothing more than a belief.

Mayhaps, but snakes use infared "heat" to see, so Martin might have given them the same abilities.

[wolfmaid7]

About the wights:

When it comes to 'interpreting' the wights, I find myself often going back to the Varamyr prologue, and its ending, with Thistle, and Varamyr inside of One Eye:

"And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me."

Two things. First, I'm pretty sure GRRM intended that to be a chilling final line to the chapter, thus, I suspect when Varamyr thinks "She sees me," he's not talking about Thistle seeing One-Eye the wolf, he means that whatever is looking through the ruins of Thistle's eyes 'sees' Varamyr the skinchanger, inside of One-Eye. And, not coincidentally IMHO, earlier in the chapter Varamyr makes sure to inform us that skinchangers can always recognize other skinchangers.

Second, an interesting difference between Thistle and Royce. Royce's one ruined eye lacks the burning wight blue, whereas Thistle's ruined eye sockets still go wight blue; the significance being that Royce's ruined eye has fragments of his sword embedded in it. As BC pointed out when Royce's eye was brought up in the previous thread, this may point to the notion that iron can indeed 'bind' whatever magic is at work here.

I did not read that part,the above way.This is the quote:

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him.

His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye.

The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

I was thinking he couldn't see if the left eye was blue because there was a shard still inside it blocking the blue.We know its not the pupil that blue,the blue glow seems to be in the skull.

[wolfmaid7]

When it comes to holes in a story, there's a difference between absence of information, and contradictory information.

With the wights and the WWs, unless I've greatly misremembered the story, the text has yet to contradict the notion that the WWs lead the wights. Instead, the argument that one might not be associated with the other is, at best, based on absence of information--an absence stemming from the fact that we've only personally seen the WWs twice.

Having said that...both share the same burning blue eyes, and the notion that the WWs lead the wights is the standard version in the tales. Not just Old Nan's tales, but recent tales from the Wildlings. Finally, we have the attack on the Fist, three horn blows for the Others, and the aftermath, with Ser Puddles riding up on the dead horse of a man that had just died at the Fist.

That all of this might be a great misdirect is certainly possible, but clearly GRRM has structured information in such a way that we are to logically infer that the WWs are the masters of the wights.

I agree and i've found several contradictory info. You are right we have seen the wws twice but we have seen the Wights several times in hordes and i am 100% sure i can poke holes big as the craters on the moon in that story. You can't show me anywhere in the text that the wws were at any wight attacks or better yet that anyone has seen them. I'll poke huge holes in that too.

Mayhaps, but snakes use infared "heat" to see, so Martin might have given them the same abilities.

That's speculation,in context there is no way Old Nan knows what the Wights smells or don't smell. This is not Martin now,but a character in his story saying this as if its fact.Something she can't know.

[Matthew.]

I was thinking he couldn't see if the left eye was blue because there was a shard still inside it blocking the blue.We know its not the pupil that blue,the blue glow seems to be in the skull.

Certainly possible. More broadly, what I'm choosing to take away from all of that is that there is a foreign intelligence spotting Varamyr, someone/something other than Thistle. Furthermore, the fact that her physical eyes are ruined seems inconsequential to whatever is controlling the wight; as Qhorin put it, "the trees have eyes again."

You can't show me anywhere in the text that the wws were at any wight attacks or better yet that anyone has seen them. I'll poke huge holes in that too.

Well, no, because I can't show the Others doing much of anything in the text--other than killing members of the NW, the same faction that received a resounding defeat at the Fist.

And I know this quote has been posted before, but it's worth reposting:

"The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk."

He starts thinking of the dead, shifts to the Others, then immediately stops himself; don't think, don't remember. This proves, at the very least, that he mentally distinguishes between the dead (wights) and Others. At best, one has just enough wiggle room here to say that this does not absolutely confirm that Sam saw Others at the Fist, but to assume that he did see them is both a fair and logical interpretation.

Again, what this comes down to for me, and others that don't agree with the alternative interpretation, isn't that the link between the wights and Others has enough evidence to be definitively confirmed--it's that the alternative has even less evidence in it's favor, for now.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I agree and i've found several contradictory info. You are right we have seen the wws twice but we have seen the Wights several times in hordes and i am 100% sure i can poke holes big as the craters on the moon in that story. You can't show me anywhere in the text that the wws were at any wight attacks or better yet that anyone has seen them. I'll poke huge holes in that too.

That's speculation,in context there is no way Old Nan knows what the Wights smells or don't smell. This is not Martin now,but a character in his story saying this as if its fact.Something she can't know.

There are places in the story where white walkers and wights are together. You just refuse to acknowledge them.

ETA which its fine to have your own opinion. I just like to go with the information we do have when it is made available to us.