Heresy 143 Winter Solstice Edition

[wolfmaid7]

Proof against anyone seeing wws in the attack on the Fist,and proof that the very first time Sam and Grenn saw a WW was when Ser Puddles tooled up. I see it mention that because Ser Puddles rode up with a horse on the Fist he was there during the attack.Why couldn't have Ser Puddles come upon the mess at the Fist after the fact.The way Mance and Jon did.

We've been through this before Sam was clearly seeing wights and thinking Others because we have textual evidence of what he saw and what he reported that he saw.It is the same reason behind blowing the horn.Do you actually believe they saw wws and blew the horns.No they saw wights thought Others and blew the horn.

"

Do you think the Wights are gone?" Sam asked Grenn

Why don't they come finish us?"

"They only come when it's cold "

Yes" said Sam ,but is it the cold that brings the Wights or the Wights that bring the cold?"(Sam,asos,pg.448-449).

"He emerged beneath a sky the color of white lead. A snow sky, Sam thought, squinting up. The

prospect made him uneasy. He remembered that night on the Fist of the First Men when the

wights and the snows had come together.(affc sam chpt 5)"

In,addition Sam when reporting via letters to CB per Mormont's request made no mention of Others because he did not see them there. In fact the very first time we are absolutely sure Sam saw an "Other" is when Ser Puddles came up on them. We know this by Sam's language in addressing seeing Ser Puddles at the moment and when he was speaking to Grenn. Evidence

"On its back was a rider pale as ice........The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand uponthe snow (ASOS,pg,251).

"That Dragonglass kills them ,maybe they won't come at all.........

Sam wish he could believe that.........The dagger melted that pale thing in the woods."

We see here the process of Sam's thinking both quotes tells us two things.

That was the first time Sam saw something that looked like that and he deduced that it was an Other.Read pg 241-249.

Now look at what Tourmond tells Jon about their treck

Jon" i will know all there is to know all there is to know of the Others"

Tourmond.........They never came in force if that is your meaning,but they were with us all the same,nibbling at our eges.We lost more outriders than i care to think about and it was worth your life to fall behind or wander off.Every night we'd ring our camps with fire .They don't like fire much and make no mistake.When the snows came,though...snow and sleet and freezing rain,it bloody hard to find wood........Nights like that you always find some dead come morning .Less they find you first......A man can fight the dead ,but when their masters come when the mist rise up.How do you fight a mist crow? Shadows with teeth...how can your sword cut cold (adwd,pg,778-779)

Nowhere in this does Tourmond mentions seeing wws at all.In a moving poulation of about 100,000 people on the edge of that go missing fall behind,ouriders missing how do you know wws picked them off.

In,addition why its also impossible is the logistics of seeing anything that looks like wws in a blizzard.There is noway for anyone to disern somthing bone white wearing camo in a BLIZZARD. Come on now.

[wolfmaid7]

There are places in the story where white walkers and wights are together. You just refuse to acknowledge them.

ETA which its fine to have your own opinion. I just like to go with the information we do have when it is made available to us.

Where????? I just posted what i know to be textual and concrete.So where is it that they appear together. Regail me, what am i choosing NOT to achknowledge? I'll concede if you show me...Not what thousand year old stories say,what backs up those stories now.

[serpent squad]

Again, what this comes down to for me, and others that don't agree with the alternative interpretation, isn't that the link between the wights and Others has enough evidence to be definitively confirmed--it's that the alternative has even less evidence in it's favor, for now.

Agreed.

You are right we have seen the wws twice but we have seen the Wights several times in hordes and i am 100% sure i can poke holes big as the craters on the moon in that story. You can't show me anywhere in the text that the wws were at any wight attacks or better yet that anyone has seen them. I'll poke huge holes in that too.

What bothers me about the whole "I'll poke huge holes in that" attitude is that it's nothing more than saying "You can't be 100% certain about that". Well, you think you're awake and reading this post now? I'll poke huge holes in that. You could be merely dreaming this, or you're just hooked up to the Matrix and this is what it's feeding your brain. Want to try to prove that isn't the case? To be sure, I can poke huge holes in whatever you come up with. That's how helpful that attitude is.

We obviously don't have all the answers about this story, so any explanation on anyone's part is going to have some holes in it. But the goal is to lay out what we have most reason to believe given the evidence before us now.

[wolfmaid7]

Certainly possible. More broadly, what I'm choosing to take away from all of that is that there is a foreign intelligence spotting Varamyr, someone/something other than Thistle. Furthermore, the fact that her physical eyes are ruined seems inconsequential to whatever is controlling the wight; as Qhorin put it, "the trees have eyes again."

Well, no, because I can't show the Others doing much of anything in the text--other than killing members of the NW, the same faction that received a resounding defeat at the Fist.

And I know this quote has been posted before, but it's worth reposting:

"The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk."

He starts thinking of the dead, shifts to the Others, then immediately stops himself; don't think, don't remember. This proves, at the very least, that he mentally distinguishes between the dead (wights) and Others. At best, one has just enough wiggle room here to say that this does not absolutely confirm that Sam saw Others at the Fist, but to assume that he did see them is both a fair and logical interpretation.

Again, what this comes down to for me, and others that don't agree with the alternative interpretation, isn't that the link between the wights and Others has enough evidence to be definitively confirmed--it's that the alternative has even less evidence in it's favor, for now.

I have said this all along and will continue to say it,what responsible behind the wights is akin to a skinchanger/GS.It behaves just as a skinchanger would with its familiars.

What Sam shifts between Mathew is the visual of the Wights with what he knows stories say of the Others so that's not proof. See my post with spoiler tags below for proof.

Not only does it proove Sam, like so many others in this story are seeing wights and thinking yep the Others.But it is impossible given the conditions during a Wight horde swarming where you are in an actual blizzard to discern a creature who is white like the sourroundings and whose camo shifts to match the environment.

I am not trying to argue if they are there or not i'm saying past or present given these conditions ...hell no.

I will stick by my theory.The mist,the cold the wind that rolls in is the physical manifestation of the only thing i believe can pull that off.A bad ass skinchanger aka GS.

The wws whatever they are be they Craster's sons,Golems,an old race they are not responsible for the necromancy occuring here.

Are they leading the wights to attack humans imho..No.That is the question are they leading Wights to attack humans.

Possibilities remain plenty as to what they are doing and who they are.

[wolfmaid7]

Agreed.

What bothers me about the whole "I'll poke huge holes in that" attitude is that it's nothing more than saying "You can't be 100% certain about that". Well, you think you're awake and reading this post now? I'll poke huge holes in that. You could be merely dreaming this, or you're just hooked up to the Matrix and this is what it's feeding your brain. Want to try to prove that isn't the case? To be sure, I can poke huge holes in whatever you come up with. That's how helpful that attitude is.

We obviously don't have all the answers about this story, so any explanation on anyone's part is going to have some holes in it. But the goal is to lay out what we have most reason to believe given the evidence before us now.

I have no idea what you are talking about,but when a belief goes against the collective this is what usually happen.So lets dispense with whatever attituide you think i have and stick to the facts shall we. And please i'm not being rude or anything i'm just being to the point.Me saying i can poke holes, is me saying that i have evidence to the contrary to what is being said.

1. If you can tell me( and this just reasoning in hearing what the characters are telling us without saying the words) The possibility of a character seeing a creature that would be lost otherwise in a blizzard amist hindreds of Wights, i'd concede that if it was there. I don't think we can say that these characters saw wws. Not me dreaming its,me looking at what Sam says he saw when he was under stress and when he was calm.How he reacted when he saw Puddles.This is not my imagination and it takes no feat of manipulation or twisting the text,just reading behind their opinions in some cases.

2.We have Tourmnd's statement, a text i quoted upthread and it has been used many many times as evidence that he saw wws (see Mathew's post as evidence to this thinking).The text doesn't tell us that at all. Not my invention,i'm putting aside their emotinal yet warranted opinions to read what they are actually telling us. We have clear cases of despite what is being said evidence and reasoning is saying something different.

Its the same reasoning that says despite the FM saying the COTF gace them a gift every year ( evidence tells us it wasn't so).Or Nan telling us something she couldn't possibly know.ie the "Others" smelling hot blood because she never actually mentions wights does she to my recollection. Her statement is subjective and it humanizes her because we do that to in real life..deductions based on subjectivity.

Its the same reason when the annals said "those who fall in battle with the Others must be burnt or they'll rise as their thrall". Was dismissed as not truthful because we have several cases that proove this not to be true the wws killing someone or not isn't a factor ergo it was a confounding variable that prooved to be false.

[Matthew.]

We've been through this before Sam was clearly seeing wights and thinking Others...

Now, there's plenty of things I'm willing to accept as being a case of too little information, but this isn't one of them. There is simply no basis for this assumption; not only is there no basis, it's outright disproved by basic sentence structure.

"The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk."

Not "The dead, the Others, have no mercy..." or any other variation; the dead, AND the Others. If it were Mr. Martin's intent to convey anything other than the fact that Sam thinks of the dead (wights) and the Others as being distinct from one another, then he shouldn't have written his sentence that way.

And, as your own quote shows, when the Other rides up on a dead horse, Sam defines it as such in his own internal narration; there's no confusion over what he's seeing, he knows the horse's pale rider is an Other, and given that he likely just saw them at the Fist, there would be no reason for him to be perplexed.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

So Wolfmaid you're right no where in the book does it say we see WW's with wights. I always inferred that theyre connected. The WW's are the "masters" as Tormund says of the wights is how myself and most people read it as well. I feel like they have a little of themselves still left after the fact thats why thistle "sees" V6 and why Royce "sees" Will ( i have no clue the significance of this but to have it written similar implies to me its important)... So everyone what do you think is the connection between the WW's and wights in a semi concise manner without getting into whether we see them "chillin" together or not.

[Armstark]

Now, there's plenty of things I'm willing to accept as being a case of too little information, but this isn't one of them. There is simply no basis for this assumption; not only is there no basis, it's outright disproved by basic sentence structure.

"The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk."

Not "The dead, the Others, have no mercy..." or any other variation; the dead, AND the Others. If it were Mr. Martin's intent to convey anything other than the fact that Sam thinks of the dead (wights) and the Others as being distinct from one another, then he shouldn't have written his sentence that way.

And, as your own quote shows, when the Other rides up on a dead horse, Sam defines it as such in his own internal narration; there's no confusion over what he's seeing, he knows the horse's pale rider is an Other, and given that he likely just saw them at the Fist, there would be no reason for him to be perplexed.

I think what wolfmaid was trying to say is that Sam just assumed there where Others there at the Fist because of all the stories told about them leading the dead. Her argument is not that Sam cannot discern wights and Others, the point is that Sam never could have seen the Others at the Fist given the conditions so he must have assumed they were there.

I think a lot of what wolfmaid argues actually finds a lot of agreement here. It is the cold that raises the dead. Controlling them might be akin to skinchanging. A greenseer might be behind all of that. What I take most issue with is the separation of the cold from the white walkers and I see no evidence that they do not act in concert and are not in essence the same.

That is why "those who fall in battle with the Others must be burnt or they'll rise as their thrall" is still a true statement. Wherever there are Others there is the cold and wherever there is the cold the slain rise again.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

^^^ concise i love it

[Matthew.]

Ah, I see, that's my mistake!

She means Sam is seeing wights and thinking Others, as in, he's seeing wights, and simply assuming Others must be in the vicinity, leading the charge; I was interpreting her statement as meaning that he's seeing wights, and thinking that the wights are the White Walkers. I can see the argument there, though I don't agree with that interpretation of the Fist.

To WM, if I was misinterpreting what you meant, then I truly apologize.

[Eira Seren]

The reason why they can ride a dead horse,has nothing to do with them raising and controlling. The horse remembers its a horse.Its meant to be ridden and even though its dead doesn't mean that its going act any different.Its just a dead horse.After Puddles bit the dust Mr Ed didn't go all crazy on them because when the horse was alive i'm sure it didn't go bonkers ,it wasn't in its nature.Its still doing what it did in life taxing people around, in this case Puddles it was just dead.

What about the wights, are they like the horse and all they recall is their normal routine (killing people)?

This is a snapshot of my theory

Lets look at the fact that we have people animals etc dying all over the North different locations spaning miles and miles and they are just getting up.

Like v6,i believe the cold GS is riding the wind and collecting skins which is essentially what its doing.....See Tyrion's quote in my sig,hell take into consideration what several characters have been warning "The cold winds are rising" The wws are not the threat.

Then we have Leaf's warning to Bran when he saw Ned" Do not seek to call him back from death"

Ok I gotta ask... What happens if Ned does get called back? Is he just a wight or something more?

There is an inferrence that what's going on with the Wights skinchanging is behind it ,and better yet a skinchanger with kick ass powers (GS)

BC i put the "iam the wood" for you,you know where i'm heading with this? "He gives his sons to the wood"

Whether they turn to wws or not,we know who or what's probably recieving Craster's sacrifices.

last, it's not easy typing on this phone so will just say a compelling argument can be made for the greenseer. But am still on the fence about who controls the wights. Very dodgy in terms of the history... Where did the ability or practice start

Eta the cold winds seriously are rising here. Some kind of storm, sounds like it might bust the patio door.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

What about the wights, are they like the horse and all they recall is their normal routine (killing people)?

Ok I gotta ask... What happens if Ned does get called back? Is he just a wight or something more?

last, it's not easy typing on this phone so will just say a compelling argument can be made for the greenseer. But am still on the fence about who controls the wights. Very dodgy in terms of the history... Where did the ability or practice start

Eta the cold winds seriously are rising here. Some kind of storm, sounds like it might bust the patio door.

Good question. The only necromancers that we know of are humans. Thoros and Beric and the ones mentioned in the World book. In theory some other Red Priests and the priests of the drowned god believe they do it.

Hope you don't blow away.

[MaesterSam]

Agreed Maester. If they had been human, their killing of Waymar would've been quite mundane. I think what makes the Prologue special is that, though dead, Waymar rises to strangle Will. Well, that, and the fact that they were inhuman :)

Sure, seems plausible to me.

I'm not sure about them either, but the manner of Thistle's death is far from clear.

The wildling accounts are far from clear as well. People off on their own... away from the main camp... returning as wights...

It may be "that whoever dies beyond the Wall will rise, regardless of what killed them..." now. But before the white walkers migrated south, the dead stayed dead. Othor and Jafer are far from the first crows to be killed north of the Wall, but they are the first to rise after being dead in thousands of years.

So I would argue that the presence of Others is still responsible for any rising of the dead.

I think this observation actually proves the notion of wights being strategically controlled by white walkers and/or Others. Some wights are sent to harry the wildling host at random, as with Tormond's son, which helps usher the wildlings South. Some are sent on stealth missions, as with unOthor and unJafer, who attack key targets within Castle Black.

It is brilliantly done, sending both the living (wildlings) and the dead (wights) to attack the Wall. And far too brilliant to be chance.

Exactly! And apparently dragonsteel is necessary to kill them... which would make them much more difficult to kill than simply chucking some dragonglass at them from afar.

This sets up a far more interesting dynamic than simply dragonglassing ww's like fish in a barrel:

1. no one knows what dragonsteel is exactly, but it doesn't sound like something you could tip an arrow with

if it is Valyrian Steel, this explains why the lords of the great houses are important, and why they had need of the blades

if it is not Valyrian Steel, then we may have our first, unmystical, non-R'llhorist account of weaponry akin to that of AA

I think we have finally reached agreement, Ser,as to the prologue situation. :cheers:

As for Others and wights, I don't disagree that they are related and that the Others exert some degree of control- since they do ride the dead horses who must obey them. I'm just on the fence as to whether the Others raise the dead or if the same "force" that woke the latest batch of Others also wakes the dead. I like the second possibility more, only b/c it requires there to be another player on team Ice, and as I've pointed out before, what we've seen of the Others so far just isn't scary enough to justify their reputation. I'd be a little disappointed if the threat from the North ended up consisting of a handful of Craster's sons and their wights. I feel pretty confident this will not be the case, and regardless of whether it's BR or an Ancient Other ultimately in charge, this entity could have raised the dead so they would serve the Others in their battles. But of course it's entirely possible the Others raise the dead themselves- it just seems logistically difficult for them to have personally touched all those people and animals that are roaming beyond the Wall now. But if they can do it without being in close proximity then I have no argument with that theory.

Now regarding dragonsteel... knowing as we do now that there very likely was an advanced race of dragon riders before the Valyrians... This really may not be Valyrian steel but something different entirely. Of course if it IS Valyrian steel, that is interesting too, as it raises the question of whether it is a coincidence that these magical swords being produced by the dragonlords are the only weapon that can kill the Others.

One more thing; I noticed a Tormund quote that wolfmaid had posted provides potential evidence for the 3rd group (Ancient Others? NK's guys?):

Nights like that you always find some dead come morning .Less they find you first......A man can fight the dead ,but when their masters come when the mist rise up.How do you fight a mist crow? Shadows with teeth...how can your sword cut cold ?(adwd,pg,778-779)

This does not sound like Mance was battling the same Popsicle types as Waymar Royce. Waymar didn't stand a chance, but he was fighting an enemy that was physically present- fighting him. Mance says there is nothing there to fight: "How do you fight a mist, crow?" and "can your sword cut cold?". He didn't say "they're skilled swordsmen, silent and with superior weapons. we can't win b/c our swords shatter when we use them".

Sounds to me like there is definitely a 3rd entity around, one which at least Mance seems to think is raising the dead.

Certainly possible. More broadly, what I'm choosing to take away from all of that is that there is a foreign intelligence spotting Varamyr, someone/something other than Thistle. Furthermore, the fact that her physical eyes are ruined seems inconsequential to whatever is controlling the wight; as Qhorin put it, "the trees have eyes again."

what if the greenseers technically have the power to control the wights, but it's an abomination so it is not done. But every once in a while, as in any society, there is a greenseer that is cruel, or mad... (I'm reading the WB at the moment, so everyone is either cruel, mad or beautiful and honorable in my view!)

I do like the comparison to the eyes in the trees. Perhaps anything with eyes will serve (although it sounds like eventually Bran won't need anyone's eyes anymore)

[MaesterSam]

Oh, and one other thing- not sure if this is relevant but if it is, it could be big. Here is a passage from the WB:

Jenny of Oldstones was accompanied to court by a dwarfish, albino woman who was reputed to be a woods witch in the riverlands. Lady Jenny herself claimed, in her ignorance, that she was a child of the forest.

Here we have the ghost of High Heart, being called a Woods Witch but also a CotF. Are the two interchangeable? If someone is a CotF, is it not obvious? This sounds to me like the average person can be standing across from a CotF and not know it. The interpretation of this strange woman as a woods witch specifically is very interesting. If the Singers can hide out among humans pretending to be woods witches... then was it a Singer who led the wildlings to Hardhome and certain death?

[wolfmaid7]

So Wolfmaid you're right no where in the book does it say we see WW's with wights. I always inferred that theyre connected. The WW's are the "masters" as Tormund says of the wights is how myself and most people read it as well. I feel like they have a little of themselves still left after the fact thats why thistle "sees" V6 and why Royce "sees" Will ( i have no clue the significance of this but to have it written similar implies to me its important)... So everyone what do you think is the connection between the WW's and wights in a semi concise manner without getting into whether we see them "chillin" together or not.

And its pretty normal to see that...The wights have blue eyes,the wws have blue eyes.But we've never asked ourselves are the wws in the same both as the wights.

Actually Tourmond says the Mists are the masters and we have no evidence ( Puddles dissolving into water and then blowing away in a fine mists) doesn't count that they can do this at will.

I'd draw a parallel to the mist on the sorrows,the stone men and the story of the shrouded Lord.

I think what wolfmaid was trying to say is that Sam just assumed there where Others there at the Fist because of all the stories told about them leading the dead. Her argument is not that Sam cannot discern wights and Others, the point is that Sam never could have seen the Others at the Fist given the conditions so he must have assumed they were there.

I think a lot of what wolfmaid argues actually finds a lot of agreement here. It is the cold that raises the dead. Controlling them might be akin to skinchanging. A greenseer might be behind all of that. What I take most issue with is the separation of the cold from the white walkers and I see no evidence that they do not act in concert and are not in essence the same.

That is why "those who fall in battle with the Others must be burnt or they'll rise as their thrall" is still a true statement. Wherever there are Others there is the cold and wherever there is the cold the slain rise again.

Thank you Armastark for the sum. i agree with everything you say except the last bit and i noted that as one of the inconsistency with the stories and why it is a confounder that has been clarified. The statement by the annals have been disproved imo because we have seen several cases where the dead rose and there were no Others. Thistle,Torwyn the view at Hardome etc. I agree the wws emit a cold,but its not magical its because they are just cold creatures not because what they emit have magical properties.

I say this,not only because we have cases of the dead rising without them,the cold they emit is localized to there vicinity.It doesn't extend for miles.It doesn't bring what the wights bring with them.

Then we have this riddle,one that Grenn i think got right when Sam asked "do the wights bring the cold or do the cold brings the wight"....His reply they come together is perfect.

Now i will say i don't know if the same sorcery that enthralls the Wights does the wws.Its a possibility they got shackled to by a GS.Given what the show depicts, it seems they are servants of the NK,the position i theorize is the other GS position.

I really don't know and that's because there's different ways to look at it, its one of the things i puzzle over and go back and forth on.However,it goes i'll bet the wws are not behind it.There are several possibilities and while i choose one,the others are just as possible.

1. The wws while they do not control the dead they were created to be Lt's of the dead.

2. They were men who volunteered for this position and became the first NW and were enslaved against their will by the NK who is bent on bringing the realms of men to their Knees because of their treachery and they were forced to be Lts of the dead.In sum they are forced servants of "the cold."

3. Their point is to push men out of the North during this time in effect keeping the Wight population down and they are immune.

I'm torn between 2 & 3

Ah, I see, that's my mistake!

She means Sam is seeing wights and thinking Others, as in, he's seeing wights, and simply assuming Others must be in the vicinity, leading the charge; I was interpreting her statement as meaning that he's seeing wights, and thinking that the wights are the White Walkers. I can see the argument there, though I don't agree with that interpretation of the Fist.

To WM, if I was misinterpreting what you meant, then I truly apologize.

Ah its all good :grouphug:

What about the wights, are they like the horse and all they recall is their normal routine (killing people)?

Ok I gotta ask... What happens if Ned does get called back? Is he just a wight or something more?

last, it's not easy typing on this phone so will just say a compelling argument can be made for the greenseer. But am still on the fence about who controls the wights. Very dodgy in terms of the history... Where did the ability or practice start

Eta the cold winds seriously are rising here. Some kind of storm, sounds like it might bust the patio door.

Eira you in the Bay too? I'm getting absolutely hammered. I had to walk a mile down the street to find my trash cans lol. As to the Wights question,they are the perfect weapons.They can kill the healthy.And another proof of intelligence behind them. There was an entire horde outside the hut Sam and Gilly was in.Yet it wasn't just any wight that came in the hut. Of all the Wights that were NW men and Wildlings it should be Small Paul that entered. He was the one that helped Sam on the treck back who wouldn't let Sam die.Paul wasn't just any Wight,he was the right Wight as he made Sam hesitate.

Good question. The only necromancers that we know of are humans. Thoros and Beric and the ones mentioned in the World book. In theory some other Red Priests and the priests of the drowned god believe they do it.

Hope you don't blow away.

Bingo !

[Eira Seren]

Good question. The only necromancers that we know of are humans. Thoros and Beric and the ones mentioned in the World book. In theory some other Red Priests and the priests of the drowned god believe they do it.

Hope you don't blow away.

That's a good point, who the heck are those teachers in Asshai? I agree the practice seems connected much farther back, possibly with a migration or earlier connection to the North. still too much info to narrow down, but I could see the seastone chair being involved in human sacrifice, possibly the kind that involves raising the dead at some later point (which could explain the bizzarre drowning practices of the Ironborn, too. . . what is dead may never die. . .)

I think we have finally reached agreement, Ser,as to the prologue situation. :cheers:

As for Others and wights, I don't disagree that they are related and that the Others exert some degree of control- since they do ride the dead horses who must obey them. I'm just on the fence as to whether the Others raise the dead or if the same "force" that woke the latest batch of Others also wakes the dead. I like the second possibility more, only b/c it requires there to be another player on team Ice, and as I've pointed out before, what we've seen of the Others so far just isn't scary enough to justify their reputation. I'd be a little disappointed if the threat from the North ended up consisting of a handful of Craster's sons and their wights. I feel pretty confident this will not be the case, and regardless of whether it's BR or an Ancient Other ultimately in charge, this entity could have raised the dead so they would serve the Others in their battles. But of course it's entirely possible the Others raise the dead themselves- it just seems logistically difficult for them to have personally touched all those people and animals that are roaming beyond the Wall now. But if they can do it without being in close proximity then I have no argument with that theory.

Now regarding dragonsteel... knowing as we do now that there very likely was an advanced race of dragon riders before the Valyrians... This really may not be Valyrian steel but something different entirely. Of course if it IS Valyrian steel, that is interesting too, as it raises the question of whether it is a coincidence that these magical swords being produced by the dragonlords are the only weapon that can kill the Others.

One more thing; I noticed a Tormund quote that wolfmaid had posted provides potential evidence for the 3rd group (Ancient Others? NK's guys?):

This does not sound like Mance was battling the same Popsicle types as Waymar Royce. Waymar didn't stand a chance, but he was fighting an enemy that was physically present- fighting him. Mance says there is nothing there to fight: "How do you fight a mist, crow?" and "can your sword cut cold?". He didn't say "they're skilled swordsmen, silent and with superior weapons. we can't win b/c our swords shatter when we use them".

Sounds to me like there is definitely a 3rd entity around, one which at least Mance seems to think is raising the dead.

what if the greenseers technically have the power to control the wights, but it's an abomination so it is not done. But every once in a while, as in any society, there is a greenseer that is cruel, or mad... (I'm reading the WB at the moment, so everyone is either cruel, mad or beautiful and honorable in my view!)

I do like the comparison to the eyes in the trees. Perhaps anything with eyes will serve (although it sounds like eventually Bran won't need anyone's eyes anymore)

This is a really good way to look at the possible divisions, I never read that passage this way before but see how it could be. the mist and the 3rd group/ancient others. . . I like it.

As for the Ghost of HH: Could be? Unless she was able to use some sort of glamour. We've wondered before how Leaf was able to wander the world of men for so long, unless she was spe

And its pretty normal to see that...The wights have blue eyes,the wws have blue eyes.But we've never asked ourselves are the wws in the same both as the wights.

Actually Tourmond says the Mists are the masters and we have no evidence ( Puddles dissolving into water and then blowing away in a fine mists) doesn't count that they can do this at will.

I'd draw a parallel to the mist on the sorrows,the stone men and the story of the shrouded Lord.

Thank you Armastark for the some i agree with everything you say except the last bit and i noted that as one of the inconsistency and why it is a confounder that has been clarified. The statement by the annals have been disproved because we have seen several cases where the dead rose and there were no Others. Thistle,Torwyn the posse at Hardome etc. I agree the wws emit a cold,but its not magical its because they are just cold creatures not because what they emit have magical properties.

I say this,not only because we have cases of the dead rising without them,the cold they emit is localized to there vicinity.It doesn't extend for miles.It doesn't bring what the wights bring with them.

Then we have this riddle,one that Grenn i think got right when Sam asked "do the wights bring the cold or do the cold brings the wight"....His reply they come together is perfect.

Now i don't know if the same sorcery that enthralls the Wights does the wws.Its a possibility they got shackled to by a GS.Given what the show depicts it seems they are servants of the NK,the position i theorize is the other GS position.

So I really don't know and its one of the things puzzle over.However,it goes i'll bet the wws are not behind it.

Ah its all good :grouphug:

Eira you in the Bay too? I'm getting absolutely hammered. I had to walk a mile down the street to find my trash cans lol. As to the Wights question,they are the perfect weapons.They can kill the healthy.And another proof of intelligence behind them. There was an entire horde outside the hut Sam and Gilly was in.Yet it wasn't just any wight that came in the hut. Of all the Wights that were NW men and Wildlings it should be Small Paul that entered. He was the one that helped Sam on the treck back who wouldn't let Sam die.Paul wasn't just any Wight,he was the right Wight as he made Sam hesitate.

Bingo !

It must be hitting the west coast, we are in the Puget Sound area. Hang on to something! No WW yet, but if i wake up to snow that could be freaky.

You are right about Small Paul, all the way! It makes me want to read all the parts with the wights and see if anyone other than the 'trojan wights' at the wall seem to do the same thing. they're definitely remembering.

my other thought about Tormund and Nan's view is that everyone thinks that the WW are in charge. whether that's accurate or not, am not sure, but it's almost like they think the WW are carrying out some sort of vengeance/obliteration campaign against the Northerners or men. Which may just be an idea that men have formulated over the years coming out of conflicts (ah, the old colonial guilt)

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I don't think the white walkers need to physically touch everebody. They are the cold that spreads, or at least they exude the cold that spreads.

A good question is what happens to the white walkers during the warmth of the day. Do they just take a nap like the wights who are just dead guys and gals? Do they hide under a bush to keep the warmth of the day away? Probably not.

[Black Crow]

Well that one moved last night, but I think it still comes down to the simple fact that everyone in text across a very broad spectrum associates the white walkers and the wights and there is no reason in text to disassociate them - or for that matter at this point in the story any reason to complicate the story by doing so, or trying to conjure up a distinction between Craster's sons and "ancient Others".

Similarly, in the context of Tormund's remark about fighting mists there's no reason not to suppose he's talking metaphorically given that we have seen them - which may be more than Mance has done. The claim that Mance has fought them and killed hundreds turns out to relate to wights and we have Osha's scathing remark about Mance thinking he could fight the walkers like they were no more than rangers - and clearly saying at the same time that Mance is not wildling born.

Its just a variant on a common theme expressed sometimes as "will of the wisp"; that is an opponent who strikes, disappears and can't be found until the next time he strikes.

[King Tyrion XX]

GRRM via twitter has promised a suprise on the Solstice so we are keeping our fingers crossed its something juicy.

From what I remember of Not A Blog GRRM doesn't have a Facebook or Twitter.

Still I'll keep my fingers crossed it's a TWOW announcement.

[Armstark]

From what I remember of Not A Blog GRRM doesn't have a Facebook or Twitter.

Still I'll keep my fingers crossed it's a TWOW announcement.

He has a twitter account for six months or so now. It is the real GRRM.