That guy Alistair Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 So Robert's Rebellion began when Jon Arryn refused to hand over Ned and Robert. Both Robert and Ned go off to get their armies. Battles ensue. At some point, by the end Robert became the leader. I'm curious if there is a moment during the rebellion that Robert is established as the leader of the rebels, or is just after once they reach Kingslanding and have to decide who becomes King (and Robert is chosen with his Targaryen heritage.) Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 My guess (and it is a guess), would be when he managed to link up with the main rebel army, after speaking with Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and Ned about what course they should follow to victory over the royalists. There was really no need to make a declaration of intent (so to speak), except to sow doubt among the fence-sitters who might have already hated Aerys (and been annoyed at Rhaegar's actions), but not wanted to fully break with the Targaryen lineage. Militarily a small effect overall, but better than nothing. Mostly its effect would be political, if the rebels won. (If they lost, they would be dead of course.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 About the time his hammer hit Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 In varying ways at various times. I don't think Arryn ever relinquished political control, but that essentially carried on into the reign. I think Robert was always the most dynamic figure among the leaders, so him becoming the figurehead always seemed a natural option and I don't think Ned or Arryn ever wanted that for thrmselves either; no idea about Hoster, but as a latecomer it woukd be less organic anyways. It's an interesting situation where the 3 leaders were all a bit atypical in terms of not wanting symbolic leadership, but I guess Robert had the least arguable objections.In terms of popular conception, as a military frontman it probably began a bit at Gulltown and really came together that day if many battles. i think it was Arryn: politics/Robert battle up to that point, Aerys appointing JonCon as his Robert indicates seeing himself squared off with Arryn, who I'm sure he saw as the chore of the rebellion. But by the time we get to the Trident I think The struggle had been most defined on the battlefield...the politics took place behind closed doors/at hastily arranged weddings...so I think it was seen as Robert's Rebellion by then, at least commonly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Robert had the best claim to the throne amongst himself, Ned, and Jon as he had Targaryen descent. I also seem to recall that sometime around the battle of the Trident, he decided he was going to press that claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Robert had the best claim to the throne amongst himself, Ned, and Jon as he had Targaryen descent. I also seem to recall that sometime around the battle of the Trident, he decided he was going to press that claim.We don't know if he pressed it...he seems to think not...but just before the Trident is when it was decided, by which point the Rebellion was like 90% over. Meaning his claim was pretty much an afterthought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmnomnomPomelo Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I think he became the leader immediately at the start, coz his grandmother was a Targaryen so he claimed the throne through her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 We don't know if he pressed it...he seems to think not...but just before the Trident is when it was decided, by which point the Rebellion was like 90% over. Meaning his claim was pretty much an afterthought. I could have sworn some POV stated that Robert decided to make his claim, but yeah, regardless it was already a foregone conclusion by that point. Hell Tywin says that he only sacked KL so that he could make a grand show of being loyal to Robert, so he must have gone into that knowing that Robert was the leader of the rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bungdon Umber Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 My memory is a little hazy but wasn't the battle of the bells about trying to kill robert who was the leader of the rebellion. And if they had off killed him then the other lords would have gone home. In one of the povs someone says that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I could have sworn some POV stated that Robert decided to make his claim, but yeah, regardless it was already a foregone conclusion by that point. Hell Tywin says that he only sacked KL so that he could make a grand show of being loyal to Robert, so he must have gone into that knowing that Robert was the leader of the rebellion.It's possible his 'I never asked for this' act is just part of his self-pity act later on, so you could be right I guess. I've taken him at his word on that, but if you specifically remember him saying otherwise, that trumps my assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 My memory is a little hazy but wasn't the battle of the bells about trying to kill robert who was the leader of the rebellion. And if they had off killed him then the other lords would have gone home. In one of the povs someone says thatJon Connington thinks that, but Jon Connington is specifically 'hired' to be Aerys' version of Robert, while he himself is still the leader of the royalist side. People debate how accurate JC's opinion was re: what happens if Robert dies. Most feel the rebels absolutely carry on regardless, but more likely Rhaegar survives the Trident, so who knows what breaks down thereafter...Robert seems to have been the one with the most Rhaegar specific agenda, so possibly Arryn/Ned/Tully would be more amenable to a forced succession rather than one of them (Arryn almost certainly) reluctantly taking the throne. But either way, it's understandable why the guy hired to be the Royalist Robert would see Robert as the lynchpin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the storm king returns Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I cant remember if its the show or books, but Robert Baratheon wanted Ned to become King but he refused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bungdon Umber Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Sounds like a good assessment. I could be wrong, but didn't tywin say something similiar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 When he won three battles in one day? I think it was a matter of character not claim. Robert just naturally became the figurehead because he had charisma and more entertaining narrative (fighting for his betrothed), people would want to talk about him, to tell his story, as opposed to the comparatively boring ass Ned and Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 It's possible his 'I never asked for this' act is just part of his self-pity act later on, so you could be right I guess. I've taken him at his word on that, but if you specifically remember him saying otherwise, that trumps my assumption.Nah it's not Robert saying it, just I have this memory of someone thinking something like "after the Trident Robert decided he was going to press his claim to the throne". I'm currently rereading Dance so I'm assuming it's probably Jon or Barristan. I do remember what you're talking about though so I could be wrong. But he seemed pretty happy to be king at the start of his reign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I cant remember if its the show or books, but Robert Baratheon wanted Ned to become King but he refusedi know the 'you had a better claim' thing was pure tv, not 100% on the rest. I do know that shortly before the Trident was when the 3 or 4 ( not sure if Tully was there) leaders had the meeting where they decided on their post-rebellion ticket if victorious. Prior to that it was mostly Arryn concentrating on building the coalition and Robert mostly concentrating on winning the battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdw4950 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 iirc robert kind of took over because no one else wanted it. they knew what they had to do but they were more of an army seeking justice rather than robert deciding to take the throne. before shit hit the fan there was a plan to try and usurp aerys and put rhaegar on the throne sooner but then, ya, shit hit the fan. robert didnt want it at the time either but he became the figurehead of the rebellion and had a distant targaryen relative so he fit the part. it only took the name 'roberts rebellion' after the war was already over, or close to over, and most of it was initiated through arryn. again iirc, arryn didnt really want to even be hand either but he was by far best suited to try and broker peace with all the other houses after the war. i assumed arryn stayed as hand and basically ran westeros because he knew that robert wasnt going to be capable of being a good king. without google i think thats the gist of how it went. feel free to correct me if its wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Robert declared his claim for the throne around the time of the Trident, according to GRRM. I suppose he was the leader from that moment on..But I doubt you can actually point out only one leader.. this was a group effort, Steyn, Ned and Robert. They all led their own forces, seperated from the others on occasions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the conquering bastard 25 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 In varying ways at various times. I don't think Arryn ever relinquished political control, but that essentially carried on into the reign. I think Robert was always the most dynamic figure among the leaders, so him becoming the figurehead always seemed a natural option and I don't think Ned or Arryn ever wanted that for thrmselves either; no idea about Hoster, but as a latecomer it woukd be less organic anyways. It's an interesting situation where the 3 leaders were all a bit atypical in terms of not wanting symbolic leadership, but I guess Robert had the least arguable objections.In terms of popular conception, as a military frontman it probably began a bit at Gulltown and really came together that day if many battles. i think it was Arryn: politics/Robert battle up to that point, Aerys appointing JonCon as his Robert indicates seeing himself squared off with Arryn, who I'm sure he saw as the chore of the rebellion. But by the time we get to the Trident I think The struggle had been most defined on the battlefield...the politics took place behind closed doors/at hastily arranged weddings...so I think it was seen as Robert's Rebellion by then, at least commonly.I agree with alot of what you said, but I would like interject something,even before HH war was in the air. All the houses that were arranging marriages were also in denied royal marriages at one point in time. Except Lannister but he went out of his way to make sure Rhaegar was an only child and free to wed Cersei.I don't think its coincident that Aerys whom was a paranoid freak gets his hands on Stark and brutally executes them in that manner unless he was sending a message. Robert was the bigger threat, as he's a dragon in stag clothing via his Targaryen grandmother.Also I think arrn always intended to exploit RB connection to the throne, all the main players involved were also at then war of nine penny kings. Not to mention we find out that Robert was16 when his parents died but he choose to stay in the Vale for another 3 years before HH and its him that propsed the match between him and Stark after his parents died on a mission for the crown.RB was always going to be the figure head and Arryn and Stark the puppet masters, with Tully and Lannister picking up the crumbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Conquering Bastard, how did Tywin make certain that Rhaegar remained an only child? There's no textual hint.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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