Brienne of Tarth has Targaryen blood.

[Lord Varys]

Well, okay, perhaps we can't cut out it.

On the other hand:

Which Lord/knight would have been willing to risk the wrath of the royal princes Maekar and Aerion by marrying (his heir to) Daella? Could have been difficult to find a willing suitor. If Dunk had a good relationship with Maekar at that point, the gang may have hoped that Dunk had a good chance to be forgiven for the whole thing - and if it happened this way, he was actually forgiven eventually (although that's not an argument...).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Agreed that Daenora probably was born towards the end of Rhaegel´s life. The fact that Aerion was married to her, suggests to me that he clearly was seen as Maekar´s heir.. I don´t think we have any reason to assume that Maekar tried to prevent that Aerion would eventually ascend the throne.

Daella´s marriage is Maekar´s decision, in the end. I figured that Aerion's marriage to Daenora was done to unite the lines of Maekar and Rhaegel.. Daenora was Rhaegel's last living heir, and Aerion's marriage easily could have taken place only after Daerons death... Perhaps even shortly after Daeron's death (we have no idea when Daeron died)... The fact that Daeron was Maekar's first heir, combined with the knowledge of Aerion's character, could have lead to Maekar not really caring to arrange a marriage for Aerion before Daeron's death... And Aerion could not really marry without Maekar's leave, if he were to play by the rules (and as long as Maekar was watching, Aerion played by the rules).

A strange observation... Aerion held a knife between Aegon's legs..

"He had too many brothers, he'd say, maybe one night he'd make me his sister, then he could marry me"

Yet Daella was older than Aegon... So when this happened, Daella at least was already around.. Rhae might be multiple years younger than Aegon, for all we know.

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

the Aerion-castrating-Egg thing may originate from a time when both Daella and Rhae were younger than Egg. In fact, people seemed to have assumed (me included) that the birth must have been: Daeron, Aerion, Aemon, Aegon, Daella, Rhae because of that fact.

This could be a hint that George made Daella slightly older to make her relationship with Dunk more plausible, especially if the stories he wants to tell demand that they meet each other sooner rather than later...

It could be that Aerion got the permission for the Daenora match early on - say, as a way to placate him after Daella was married to Dunk, if we go with my scenario - and only had to wait years because she was still very young. Rhae would already have been married off before Egg and Daella broke their betrothal, disabling Aerion from claiming her instead.

I really hope this whole 'incestuous marriage policy' thing addressed one way or another in the future Dunk & Egg stories.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The Targ marriage policy issue is actually quite fascinating, but I disagree with you, Lord Varys. Here's what I see:

Up 'til the Dance, the Targs really didn't worry too much about building alliances through marriage. They didn't need to. They had dragons. Their main concern was maintaining their ability to bond with dragons, and that seems to require incest.

After the Dance, we see a confused policy. Aegon III still wants to hatch dragons. Then the dragons die off. Daeron I doesn't marry, but attempts to unite the realm through the desire to conquer Dorne. Baelor rejects that, and tries to unite the realm through piety. Aegon IV attempts to unite the realm by screwing every attractive female within it.

Daeron II sets out on a new course. He starts to use marriage as a policy, much as every other great house has for the last umpteenthousand years. He brings Dorne into the realm through marriage. He has given up on hatching dragons, so he doesn't aim for incestuous marriages. He enacts a policy that every other lord in Westeros understands. It's a transformation of the Targ ruling method. It succeeds, even though it is strained by the Blackfyre rebellions.

Aerys I (actually Boodraven) and Maekar spend their reigns fighting fires - well, Blackfyres. Aegon V and Betha take Daeron's policy even further, attempting to create alliances with great houses that haven't figured in Targ marriage plans before, like Tully and Tyrell. Egg's children screw that up for him.

Then prophecies come to the fore. Jenny's wood witch friend convinces Jaehaerys to go back to the incest policy, not to strengthen Targ rule over Westeros, but to produce tPtwP. Aerys II is part of that, and Rhaegar takes it to its logical conclusion, sacrificing his dynasty's rule in order to fulfill the prophesy.

Daella's marriage falls in the Daeron II - Aerys I - Maekar time span, when the Targs were using marriage just like every other lordly house in Westeros. Therefore, political considerations would have determined her betrothal.

And for all we know, Daella was an utter harridan. Why dump her on poor old Dunk?

[Lord Varys]

Originally, I had the same interpretation as you on the matches Daeron II made. It would make a lot of sense, especially if Mariah being the first non-Valyrian queen since Alicent (whose policy was the emulate the Targaryens rather than changing them) could have been abhorred/reluctant to see her children married to close kin.

But that really changed when Ran came up with this 'Aelinor Penrose was Aerys' cousin' thing.

If Daeron II really wanted to stabilize his reign through marriages - just as he had brought Dorne into the Realm through marriage - it is really strange that he married Baelor to a Dondarrion instead of a, well, say, a Baratheon. Surely the loyalty of the Stormlords could have won best by winning the trust and love of House Baratheon (and by making a Lady of that House the next queen of Westeros). The same is true for the marriages of all of Daeron's sons but Rhaegel's - only the Arryns were a powerful house, able to take the Targaryens back should rebellions break out.

Thus my guess is that Daeron honored the Dondarrions and the Penroses with (various) Targaryen matches because they were among the houses who were among the closest kin of the dynasty, most likely through one or multiple daughters of Rhaena and Garmund Hightower, who married into a house in the Stormlands. I imagine that Daeron chose Jena for Baelor and Aelinor for Aerys (and Dyanna for Maekar as well) also for a political reason, to strengthen his ties to the Marcher Lords, and to try to preserve the peace with Dorne his father had threatened, but I'm pretty sure that, if Betha was technically considered to be below a Targaryen prince, Daeron II would have faced a massive opposition against the Baelor-Jena and Aerys-Aelinor betrothal. But if they had Jena and Aelinor had Targaryen blood, that fact would ennoble them over them far above their original station, especially during a time in which no sisters and first cousins were available (in the sense that the people at court suggesting possible matches with Valyrian blood for the sisterless princes would always have to mention the descendants of all the female lines, as it would be expected that they would come up with girls with Targaryen/Valyrian blood).

We should also keep in mind that both Aegon III, Viserys II, and Daeron I effectively continued the Targaryen incest marriages by marrying Baela to Alyn Velaryon (although I guess that was Corlys), Aegon to Naerys, and betrothing Baelor to Daena. Spare daughters (Rhaena and Elaena) are used as political coin, as are sons from then-insignificant cadet branches (Daeron-Mariah - it is noteworthy that not-yet-so-mad-Baelor did not offer Rhaena or Elaena as brides to the Martells, but chose to offer Daeron, perhaps with the intention to make a Targaryen Prince Consort of Dorne, rather than giving Westeros a Dornish queen).

The only confirmed political match Daeron II made is Daenerys-Maron. And political marriages were also not unknown during the dragon era - the talk about marrying Rhaenyra to the Prince of Dorne proves that.

Nothing suggests that the Targaryens had an general change of heart in regards to the incest, and I think this is hinted at by the fact that the incest continued as soon as it was possible again (Egg was betrothed to Daella - most likely by Daeron II or at least with his blessing, Aelor married to Aelora, and Aerion eventually Daenora). Yandel makes it pretty clear that Egg was the one who developed a distaste for incestuous marriages, and tried to put a stop to it.

If Daeron II/Mariah had already tried to do that by marrying all their four sons to 'non-kin' one should expect that Egg would not have been betrothed to Daella (or Aelor to Aelora), and by the time Egg took over the incest would have been pretty much a thing of the past rather than the common practice of House Targaryen (which it clearly still was).

[Ibbison from Ibben]

in chronological order-

When Baelor the Be-guy arranged for Daeron to marry Mariah, Daeron would already have been considered to be the eventual king, as heir of the heir of the heir (eldest son of the eldest son of Baelor's heir, Uncle Viserys). Baelor may not have made himself a septon yet, but it is pretty clear he had already decided not to father any children himself. I don't think there was ever any chance that Daeron would have ended up in Dorne.

Daeron II's betrothal of Baelor Breakspear to a Dondarrion would have been aimed specifically at reassuring the Marcher Lords, who were affected more than any other group by the Dornish merger. It changed the whole border situation, which had been going on for far longer than the Targs had been around in Westeros. Any Dondarrion link to the Targs through Rhaena is utter conjecture. As for the Aelinor marriage, it is generally considered good form to marry off your sons in order of age. Aerys' bookishness no doubt manifested itself early on. He might have been hard to find a match for, especially when every lord approached would see the youngest son Maekar as a far better deal. The Dondarrion and Dayne marriages seem to be the most significant when linked with Daeron's Dornish policies. So Aerys might have been a quick match with a cousin to clear the way for Maekar's eventual Dayne betrothal. We don't know enough about Rhaegel's condition to properly evaluate his prospects on the marriage market.

Daeron II had 11 grandchildren, seven of them male. That's an unprecedented quantity in Targ history. One of the reasons he sent Aemon to the Citadel was that he believed "too many dragons are as bad as too few". Egg would be seen as even more superfluous. Egg was betrothed to Daella as a youngster, before matches were found for his elder brothers Daeron and Aerion. That's important. At the time of Egg's betrothal, Daeron II would expect the line to descend through Baelor and Valarr, with plenty of other backups. Even Aerys might be expected to eventually get around to siring sons. If incestuous marriages were still a priority for Daeron II, Daella would have been betrothed to her eldest brother, not her youngest. The Egg-Daella betrothal seems to simply have been a way of tying up a couple loose ends.

The Aelor-Aelora match was probably considered automatic since they were fraternal twins. Aerion-Daelora probably came much later, because no one else wanted Aerion. (You don't acquire an epithet like "the Monstrous" without good reason. Aerion is one of the most reviled figures in history. Killing yourself by drinking wildfire - that might earn you "the Foolish" or "the Extremely Warm-Hearted". Aerion had an well-earned terrible reputation, for reasons we haven't heard about yet.) We can safely ignore Aerion's marriage as we analyze policy.

So other than the bookworm (Aerys), the twins (Aelor and Aelora) and the spare (Egg), we don't see incestuous betrothals/marriages. If Daeron II really was intent on continuing the incest tradition, he could have dipped into Daemon Blackfyre's line, and married Baelor to Calla. Elaena's Penrose or Plumm descendents could have been approached. And there was always the Targ's favorite standby, House Velaryon. He wouldn't have been wasting Daella on Egg. Valarr, the long-term heir, would have been betrothed at a young age to a relative, instead of getting an overseas match. But instead, at the Ashford Tourney, Daeron and Aerion were still available. Maekar was likely planning to use the event to make solid political matches for them, but his sons botched the job.

It would seem, then, that in fact incest was being de-emphasized (but not eliminated) by Daeron II, and for a good reason. After finally realizing that the dragon eggs were unlikely to hatch, House Targaryen had to start playing the Game by the standard rules. The Dondarrion match makes perfect sense on its own. Aerys marrying a cousin isn't much different than marrying a sister, which we all had presumed was the case for a long time thanks to Jeor Mormont's bad memory. Your original interpretation is still the strongest. Your proposed Dondarrion link to Rhaena hypothesis, and your proposed Daeron II marriage policy hypothesis, depend on each other, and have no evidence to back them.

Another way to look at it would be that Daeron II re-prioritized his family marriage goals. Without dragons, Daeron and his heirs had to give politics a higher precedence than the incest policy. The actual opposition to incest came in Aegon V's reign, and might very well be attributed to Betha's influence.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The Aelor-Aelora match was probably considered automatic since they were fraternal twins. Aerion-Daelora probably came much later, because no one else wanted Aerion. (You don't acquire an epithet like "the Monstrous" without good reason. Aerion is one of the most reviled figures in history. Killing yourself by drinking wildfire - that might earn you "the Foolish" or "the Extremely Warm-Hearted". Aerion had an well-earned terrible reputation, for reasons we haven't heard about yet.) We can safely ignore Aerion's marriage as we analyze policy.

I've said it before, but depending on a few things, it might be possible that Aerions marriage was highly political.

Daenora only had a child in 232 AC.. suggesting that there is a high chance she was still rather young. Daenora was Rhaegels last heir. If Daeron had died before Aerions marriage, Aerion would have already been heir by the time of his marriage, and marrying Daenora would unite the lines... And would prevent anyone from using Daenora or her child to make a claim for the throne.

The fact that Aerion had remained unwed before (his son was born when he was around his 40ties) could have multiple reasons.. perhaps he did not want to wed, as he found there was no one worthy to marry for him (Aelora was married, Daella and Rhae as well, Daenora too young to be considered earlier)... Similar to Maegor not claiming a dragon until Balerion became available.

But it woudn't necessarily be that no lord wanted him to wed their daughters.. though I could see that happening as well..

[Lord Varys]

But Baelor had not yet dissolved his marriage to Daena, and nobody really seemed to have expected that decision. I think it is more likely the court was actually surprised by the fact that Baelor dissolved his marriage, and would actually consummate his marriage (if it was indeed never consummated) and father heirs, as that was effectively what a king should do. People also seemed to believe that Aerys I would father an heir, now that he had become king, even if it must have been evident for years that he was not exactly interested in women/sex.

In my opinion, Baelor suffered a drastic personality change after his near death experience in the viper pit. Before that, he may have been pious but that piety did not really rule his decision at all times. His determination to make a peace with Dorne and the subsequent walk of repentance shows almost inhuman willpower and a very astute political mind - as he clearly must have used the religious card and his piety to enforce his will over all his court, as pretty much everyone agreed that Daeron I had to be avenged.

I think it is very likely that with his near death experience (and, following that, possibly lasting brain damage due to the snake poisoning, causing persistent/recurring 'religious visions') Baelor's outlook on his whole life changed. Whereas he first had been a pious king, he now became first and foremost the champion of the Seven on earth who happened to be king, and changed his life (and policy) accordingly. Thus I think it is not unlikely that Baelor had not yet decided that he would dissolve his marriage and incarcerate all his three sisters when he decided to marry Daeron to Mariah.

Well, we don't have to assume that a daughter of Rhaena married into houses Dondarrion and Penrose. My take would be that both Aelinor Penrose and Jena Dondarrion were maternal cousins, and their shared maternal grandmother (or great-grandmother) may have been the Hightower girl marrying into a powerful Stormlord house, possibly even Baratheon.

I'm not sure if you get the ages right. Baelor Breakspear was born in the same year as Daemon Blackfyre, making it effectively impossible/highly unlikely that anyone would ever consider marrying Baelor to Calla (not to mention that this would have been beneath Baelor, as Daemon was bastard-born, and only add fuel to Daemon's ambitions).

The reason why I did not mention the Velaryons as potential matches is because the best assumption there is to assume that Alyn and Baela had only sons and grandsons, or only daughters and granddaughters who were too old or too young to be married to Daeron's sons. Viserys Plumm was a single child, and we don't know yet when or who he did marry, or whether he had any daughters (I think he did not have any; Tyrion only mentions 'younger sons'), but if he did, those daughters could only have been matches for Daeron's grandsons, not his sons. Elaena's daughters by Ronnel Penrose were also too young to be married to any of Daeron's sons, as they were only born during Daeron's reign in 180s or even 190s, whereas Daeron's sons were all born either before or during the reign of Aegon the Unworthy.

We know that the Valarr-Kiera match was clearly a match forced by political necessity, most likely brokered shortly a few years before THK (most likely as part of Baelor's lenient stance towards the Blackfyres, as he then served as Hand), which explains why neither a (speculative) Plumm daughter, one of Laena's Penrose girls, or a Martell princess was considered. Matarys - depending his age at the time of his death - may have been betrothed to one of Laena's daughters.

The fact that mad Rhaegel got the prestigious Arryn match instead of Baelor or Aerys also seems to suggest that the Westerosi nobility did not exactly look or care about the mindset of the candidate if the Iron Throne offered a royal match (unless some, perhaps, if the prince had sadistic tendencies). The birth of Daeron and Valarr determines that Baelor and Maekar married Jena and Dyanna prior to the First Rebellion. The matches itself most likely were brokered when the children were younger, though. Nothing suggests that Aerys and Rhaegel were married to Aelinor and Alys around the same time as Baelor and Maekar, but I'd now guess that this was the case, as it makes much more sense to assume that Daeron would marry off his older sons earlier than the younger. Daeron and Mariah may not have been aware of Aerys' nature when the matches were originally brokered, explaining why he was forced into a marriage, and not allowed to go to the Citadel.

Thus I'd assume the Daeron's sons were married in, say, 188-194, depending on the ages of the various spouses, it is possibly that Rhaegel's marriage took place only after the First Rebellion, and was, perhaps, not part of the original deal, but rather a reward for Lord Jonnel Arryn's stalwart loyalty (however, it may also be the case that the Arryns were loyal because Alys was betrothed/married to Prince Rhaegel).

The fact that Aelor and Aelora were only born in/around 200 AC - they are dismissed as children in TMK, which suggests to me that they in the same age or perhaps only slightly older than Egg. They cannot have been much younger, as they would then not have been old enough to be married to each other in 217 AC.

It may have taken Rhaegel and Alys some time and effort to conceive children - depending on the nature of his (declining?) madness it may have been somewhat difficult for Alys to motivate him to try to conceive children.

As to Maekar's sons:

We have no textual evidence that Daeron or Aerion were betrothed by the time of THK, but considering that Egg was, I'd be surprised if Maekar/Daeron had not already made matches for them as well, or was in the way of negotiating matches. Possible matches could include Aelora (if she was not always betrothed to Aelor - which would be more likely) or Elaena's Penrose girls. If they lived at court with Elaena, they may have died during the Great Spring Sickness, which would explain why Daeron became free to marry Kiera of Tyrosh.

Daeron could have tied up loose ends also by betrothing Daella to Daeron and Rhae to Aerion. The fact that he didn't, suggests that he may have had other brides in mind, or may have considered such a match improper due to the age gap.

The assumption that no one wanted to marry his daughter to Aerion is way too far-fetched in my opinion. We have already heard that the Bright Prince has friends, and this has been confirmed in THK already (Steffon Fossoway should clearly qualify as such). Sure, many people will be abhorred by him in time, but all of the Realm, even the sycophants and lickspittles? Not very likely. Depending on Daenora's age, we can reasonably assume that his marriage occurred rather late in his life (around 230/1) but this does not mean that the betrothal was not made shortly after Daenora's birth, and Aerion had just to wait until she flowered.

I really think it was a very conscious decision on Aerion's part that he wanted a Targaryen bride. His treatment towards Egg suggests as much, as does his belief that he is a dragon in human form. Why the hell should a living dragon take a bride who has no dragon blood?

[Sanset]

This a very interesting thread.

If Brianne has Targaryen blood she might know about that.

Jaime had as a hostage a nice "talking history book" called Hoster Blackwood. [Edited to correct location] Hoster was still at Pennytree in Jaime's ADwD chapter. It's a very curious thing that Tyrion borrowed some rare books from the Winterfell library and he read about the properties of dragonbone in his way to the Wall. Jaime asked for a hostage and he got a bookish talkative young man and learned about Pennytree, the village between those hills that caused so many troubles to the Great Bastards.

ETA: Hoster Blackwood is the third child of Lord Tytos and the wiki says that he might be born in 283AC or 284AC. Jon was born in 283AC while Dany was born in 284AC. It might be just a playful detail... but it is curious anyway, :)

Another detail, he shares the name with Cat's father and Cat, well, we know her Whent inheritance. Bloodraven's name is Brynden, Cat's uncle. This boy has got all the numbers to be an interesting character...

Oh! and he really likes books!

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I agree that Aelor and Aelora were young. Aelor died in 217, and the marriage produced no children. Targs tend to marry young. They especially tend to marry young when they marry into the family. Given that we all tend to agree that Daelora was young at Rhaegel's death, this would seem to line up. Rhaegel seems to be described as having periods of normalcy, mingled with periods of mental instability. The timing of his marriage and the fathering of his children might depend on how long each cycle lasts. Without more details about Rhaegel, it's tough to determine much else.

I disagree about Aerion. He might have attracted some suck-ups into his orbit, but he disgraced himself at Ashford. I don't think Steffon Fossoway qualifies as a friend of Aerion. He was independent, took an opportunity to suck up to Maekar, and lost. If Daeron and Aerion had been betrothed by the time of Ashford, the marriages would probably already taken place. Daeron was certainly old enough. Aerion might well have wanted a Targaryen bride, but in the words of a wise man with large lips, "You can't always get what you want." Aerion's marriage was under control of his father, and to some extent his grandfather. He would be expected to do his duty for the family, and if that means marrying outside the family, so be it, or don't marry anybody.

As for Baelor the Be-guy - I don't see a real change in him. He was always quite pious. Once he became king, he was in a position to arrange Daeron's marriage. My argument only depends on Baelor's knowledge of himself, not anyone else's. He had already made the decision to remain celebate at the time of his wedding to Daena. The fact that he hadn't consumated his marriage, even before the snake bit episode, supports this.

The core of my proposition was that, without dragons, the Targs had to start playing the Game by the rules, which means marriages. The fact that Daeron II didn't invest any effort (other than handing out eggs to the kids) in bringing back the dragons seems to me to be a key point. If the Targs were still prioritizing incest, the senior line, Baelor Breakspear and his eldest son Valarr, would have made incestuous marriages. But they didn't. If incest was still important, wouldn't Baelor Breakspear have been married to Aelinor Penrose, his cousin, instead of brother #2?

[Lord Varys]

Aerion:

According to Ser Uthor Underleaf Aerion has still friends in Westeros while enjoying himself in his Lysene exile. Sure, what the hell knows Ser Uthor, but we know that the man watches his tourneys...

I'd also not put much weight on the whole disgrace thing. Daeron and Aerion lost a trial of seven, that's not the world, and did not cost them all that much, personally.

And if I'm not mistaken, then Steffon sucked up to Aerion, not Maekar. Maekar would not pay somebody to fight on Aerion's behalf...

We know that Elaena was married to the Ronnel Penrose by Daeron II. I imagine rather early in his reign, but this is by no means certain. If we go with Dunk's assessment of Aerion and Daeron, then Aerion is about as old as Dunk (~16) in THK, and Daeron 1-2 years older. Elaena had three daughters with Ronnel (Laena, Jocelyn, and Joy), but they must not all have been born in the 280s, as Robin Penrose was her eldest child by Ronnel.

Technically at least Daeron should already have been married if he had been betrothed, but we can easily imagine another 'Laena scenario' here:

Daeron II/Maekar arranging the matches when the children were still young, and Elaena continuously postponing the marriage because Daeron is such a disappointment and not worthy of her eldest legitimate daughter.

Aerion might be expecting his marriage to occur shortly in THK.

Baelor:

When Baelor was not king there was not as much pressure on him to father an heir (cf. Aerys and Aelinor - that only caused greater concern when Aerys became king). Thus it makes sense that Daeron/Viserys accepted/shrugged off Baelor's reluctance to have intercourse with Daena as unimportant or merely a temporal phase. And Baelor only dissolved the marriage after the viper pit.

If he had been adamant against the marriage/determined to remain celibate all his life he could have taken steps to prevent his marriage in the first place by joining the Faith then, or encouraging his father/brother/uncle to marry Daena to Daeron instead of him.

Incest:

I really think that Jena Dondarrion must have had Targaryen. Baelor did suffer from the fact that he did not look Targaryen, and in comparison with Daemon Blackfyre that was a real problem. Daeron II should have realized this, in my opinion, and chosen a bride for Baelor who would give him a child with Valyrian features (and somehow Valarr looks more Targaryen than his father).

Baelor was 14 when his father took the Iron Throne in 184 AC. The Unworthy's failed attempt on Dorne occurred in the 70s, suggesting that Daeron's original friendship with the Marcher Lord - which Aegon sought to undermine with his war idea - has nothing to do with either Elaena's or Baelor's or Aerys' marriage. Aegon had also most likely nothing to do with the marriages of Baelor's sons, suggesting that the marriages in itself were brokered shortly after Daeron ascended to the Iron Throne, and occurred some years later.

But I imagine if Daeron tried to use his four sons as bargaining chips to create powerful alliances to stabilize his rule against rebellions and uprisings (in the wake of his father's misrule that would have been a possibility) he failed spectacularly. Only the Arryns could field many men to come to his aid, and the Daynes could not really help him prior to the ratification of the treaty with Dorne. Insofar as both prestige and power is concerned both the Dondarrions and especially the Penroses are a joke. I very much doubt that the great houses of the Realm were looking forward to be ruled by 'King Baelor Martell' and his Marcher Queen.

As I've already said: If Yandel is implying that Egg-Betha would have caused a strong opposition if he had been at the top of the line of succession, it is pretty evident that Daeron II would have faced a strong opposition when he decided to marry his Heir Apparent to a Dondarrion, and his second son to a Penrose. Especially since pretty much all the great and wealthy houses of the Realm would have offered the king their daughters had he announced that he intended to find brides for his sons outside the family.

Thus I really think we really have to assume that Jena was chosen because she was one of several (closer) cousins in the right age to marry Baelor, and also from a house Daeron II wanted to bind closer to his cause. If we we assume that Aelinor and Jena share are descended from one of Rhaena's daughters, it is not unlikely that other such Targaryen cousins existed in other houses at that point, but Daeron II deliberately chose House Dondarrion and Penrose (instead of Velaryon).

Speaking about that: Care to speculate where Rhaena's six daughters ended up? My guess is that at least one of them was reabsorbed back into the Hightower main line, effectively making the present-day Hightowers Targaryen cousins. Not all of them may have married, but some might. I'd not be surprised if House Peake and another prominent house in the Reach got one, the Stormlands bride could, as I've said earlier, have been married there in the wake of/during Daeron's Conquest of Dorne.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Aerion:

We have to put a great deal of weight on the "disgrace thing" if we are going to be accurate. He not only assaulted a peasant girl over a puppet show, got called out on it by a hedge knight, and LOST (making his father look like a fool for pressing the issue in the process), he had also disgraced himself in the lists during the tourney. He was so bad he was sent into temporary exile, a fate we only see applied to the likes of Maegor the Cruel (for polygamy) and Oberyn Martell (for using a poisoned sword in a duel).

Baelor the Befuddled:

He no doubt accepted the marriage to Daena out of a sense of duty to his elder brother. But he didn't consummate it, by his own choice. His actions at the beginning of his reign (including walking the Boneway to forge a peace with Dorne) all amply reveal his piety before the snake pit encounter.

Baelor Breakspear and the Dondarrion marriage:

Baelor's looks might have served as an irritating reminder of his father's Dornish policies to those who opposed them, but no marriage was going to change Baelor's looks. The Dondarrions. marcher lords who had been fighting the Dornish for many hundred years, would have been amongst the leading critics of the Dornish alliance. The whole purpose behind the Dondarrion match would have been to act as a counterweight to the Dornish policies. Daeron, by marrying his eldest son to a marcher lord, was telling those who felt uncomfortable with the Dornish peace that they had a voice. too. And the Dondarrions were no joke. They were one of the most prominent houses bound to Storm's End, who had gathered much credit over the years by being on the front line of the constant fighting against Dorne. They guarded the Boneway, one of only two major passes through the Red Mountains. They were one of the Gatekeepers of the Realm, when Dorne was on the outside.

Daeron II came to the throne in 184, and concluded the Dornish Alliance in 187. The Tourney at Ashford in 209 was staged as a "coming out party" for Valarr, so Valarr was probably about 18 at the time. This makes it likely that Baelor married Jena D right around the time of the Dornish Treaty, and supports the idea that the treaty and the marriage were linked politically.

Contrary to your assertion, Daeron's marriage policy was a remarkable success. The realm was at peace until Daemon Blackfyre rose in rebellion, and no marriage (other than perhaps a Daemon/DDaenerys match) would have stopped that.. Until then, the main cause of unrest in the realm was the process of reconciling the old enemies of Dorne with the new reality. Marrying Baelor and Maekar into opposite sides of that issue helped unite the realm. Once Daemon rebelled, the Dornish marriages of Daeron, Daenerys, and Maekar helped supply the army that struck Bittersteel in the rear at Redgrass Field. No doubt many of them marched through the pass kept open by the Dondarrions.

There was no reason for any of the Great Lords to be offended by a Dondarrion marriage for the heir. The only Great Houses the Targs ever married were Baratheon (their own cadet branch) and Arryn. No Stark, Tully, Tyrell, or Lannister ever married/betrothed a Targ. Velaryons did, though, as did Manderlys, Corbrays, Hightowers - all no better than Dondarrions, or Penroses, or Daynes. Avoiding an incestuous marriage also would have won the praise of every septon in the realm, as well as holding out the possibility of more alliances to come. And again, if Daeron wanted a Targ relative to marry Baelor, why not his first cousin Aelinor Penrose? Your Dondarrion-Targ link speculation has no evidence to back it.

Once the dragons died, the Targs would never have lasted without sound marriage politics. History is the proof of that. Egg and Betha's plans came to nothing, the Targs returned to incest, and they fell. Why? Because Rickard Stark forged a union based on the political power of family alliances. Marriage, betrothal, fostering. The Targs never would have lost the Iron Throne at the Ruby Ford if they hadn't first lost at the marriage negotiation table.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Everybody has Targaryen blood.

[Skinner]

Everybody has Targaryen blood.

And if everyone has it, no one has it

[Ramsay's Penguins]

The Tarths are pretty powerful. Like top 10 stormlanders probably. Big island. Duncan's bastard by Daella however.

Duncan has a lot of lies surrounding him. Dunk could impregnate Daella and Aegg would probs claim it as his own. No Targaryen would ever marry Dunk... Sorry...

Unless that is a reason why Aegon was unpopular with lords. Wasting Targ marriages. Thus to absolve it he names him to the KG? Dunk really isn't that great a fighter as of now.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Everybody has Targaryen blood.

Except perhaps the Ironborn. That might come back to bite Victarion on the butt when his horn section starts its performance.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Speaking about that: Care to speculate where Rhaena's six daughters ended up? My guess is that at least one of them was reabsorbed back into the Hightower main line, effectively making the present-day Hightowers Targaryen cousins. Not all of them may have married, but some might. I'd not be surprised if House Peake and another prominent house in the Reach got one, the Stormlands bride could, as I've said earlier, have been married there in the wake of/during Daeron's Conquest of Dorne.

It would be tough to call any predictions about House Hightower post-Dance speculation. It would be closer to Wild A$$ Guesses. We have no data concerning motivation or individual links. The Targs are different, especially sine tWoIaF came out. We have an almost complete tree for them, plus a ton of history on motivations. Some info may bedeceptive, but t least have enough to discuss it realistically.

[Lord Varys]

Ramsay's Penguin,

Dunk is only confirmed as a KG in 236 AC, and Yandel indicates that he would 'rise high'. That could be a hint towards the well-known KG thing, but hedge knights in the KG are a common tradition, going back to Visenya's very first KG. Thus that's not so big a deal. However, a former hedge knight marrying a Targaryen princess would be a truly exceptional development.

Ibbison,

I'm really not sure if the Ashford came back to haunt Aerion. He lost, but he lost over a trivial issue. I guess it could have had dire consequences for him as Daeron II certainly was pissed about the death of his firstborn son, and may have taken steps to deal with Aerion quite harshly, had he lived much longer. By taking Aerion out of the picture Maekar effectively saved his son, who now even has the chance to return at an opportune moment to present himself in a promising light. Nothing suggests that Aerion's exile was a real punishment. Maekar gives the impression that it is supposed to educate him. And Aerion looks much better compared to Daeron, as he is truly a warrior. And Prince Daemon had fans, too.

If it was a punishment then for causing the death of his royal uncle, not for causing the whole farce in the first place.

Baelor:

Yes, he was pious before he became king and before he was in the viper pit, but nothing suggests that he had made it known to everyone that he was not going to ever consummate his marriage, or that he intended to become a septon. If that had been the case, Daeron I would not have married him to Daena, nor would Baelor have succeeded Daeron but Viserys II or Daena, as a septon could not inherit if he had taken the vows prior to ascending to the Iron Throne.

Marriage policies in general:

Well, it seems that the Dondarrion match in itself was only partly a success, as Daemon had his supporters among the Marcher Lords. And I'm with you that Baelor's (and Aerys') wives most likely ensured that there were still Storm Lords supporting Daeron II during the Rebellion. What I'm not sure of/doubt is that the Prince of Dragonstone could have been married to a Dondarrion with no Targaryen blood if even a Blackwood match (the Blackwoods are former royalty) would have caused objection if Egg had been an immediate heir. Giving the Marcher Lords a voice is not the same as making the Realm follow to a half-Dondarrion king.

Daeron's position was shaky when he ascended the Iron Throne, and considering Baelor's age in 184 AC (14, as Daemon Blackfyre) we should assume that Daeron made betrothals around that time while treating with Dorne. And we should also keep in mind that Daemon had supporters in Dorne as well - the Yronwoods, and possibly others.

TRP indicated that pretty much only the Hightowers were noble enough to be married to a Targaryen king without raising concern over the nobility of the blood (especially since Ceryse Hightower was also the original bride of Maegor, and a Hightower bride had also been offered to Aegon I). The Arryns (and Manderlys) only got a spare daughter of Jaehaerys, and Aemma was a half-Targaryen reclaimed by the main branch.

The Baratheon match was no Baratheon match in itself, but an incestuous Velaryon-Baratheon-Targaryen match, as Jocelyn was also descended from the Targaryens through Alyssa. I'm not sure Prince Aemon would have been married to a Baratheon if that Baratheon had not also been the half-sister of Jaehaerys.

Aelinor Penrose was not a first cousin of Aerys I. She is merely a cousin, and not through Elaena, which means that she has to be descended from either Rhaena (more likely, as we know that she had six daughters) or Baela (less likely as she and Alyn may have had only sons).

My take on that is that one Targaryen-Hightower girl married into the Stormlands, not necessarily into Houses Dondarrion or Penrose, and two daughters from that union ended up marrying into houses Dondarrion and Penrose. We know for a certainty that Aelinor is a cousin, and then she and Jena may essentially be cousins, too, despite the fact that we don't know that for a certainty, as it would be easily possible that Rhaena's daughter had multiple children just as her mother, who then married into other Stormland houses (just as Jocelyn Stark's three daughters married into various lesser houses in the Vale).

To cut it short:

If Baelor and Aerys had been married to wives with no Targaryen blood, we should assume that the whole Blackfyre rebellion thing would have used that in their propaganda war against Daeron as well. People clearly preferred Daemon due to his battle prowess (which Daeron lacked) as well as due to his Valyrian (which Baelor lacked), and they would have made use of that.

In fact, I think part of the Targaryen political strength was that they did not marry into other houses, as this reinforced the notion that the Targaryens were above the 'common nobility'. When they started to become 'mere mortals' after they become embroiled in the usual marriage policy stuff.

If political marriages had become important, then Egg would not have allowed Daeron to break his betrothal (it seemed he had little choice with Duncan/Jenny and Jaehaerys/Shaera), and had most certainly not allowed Jaehaerys to force Aerys and Rhaella to marry each other.

Rhaena's daughters:

Perhaps Garmund was even the Lord Hightower at that time (the eldest son of Lord Ormund), and his eldest daughter by Rhaena ruled after him? We cannot rule that out completely despite the fact that MUSH appendix seems to tell a different story. I'd be surprised if Rhaena Targaryen, presumably the last Targaryen dragonrider, ended up marrying a younger son of House Hightower...

But even if that was the case, Hightower ambition was really glaring throughout up until the Dance. They tried to marry into the royal family at least three times (Aegon I, Maegor, possibly Daemon, Viserys) and continued their ambition with Rhaena. If Garmund was only a younger son, I'd not be surprised if the Lord Hightower married his eldest son to a cousin by Garmund/Rhaena to ensure that the Hightower-Targaryen blood remained in the family. Considering that Rhaena had six daughters, that's not unlikely.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Well, it seems that the Dondarrion match in itself was only partly a success, as Daemon had his supporters among the Marcher Lords. And I'm with you that Baelor's (and Aerys') wives most likely ensured that there were still Storm Lords supporting Daeron II during the Rebellion.

Better a partial success than none at all.

What I'm not sure of/doubt is that the Prince of Dragonstone could have been married to a Dondarrion with no Targaryen blood if even a Blackwood match (the Blackwoods are former royalty) would have caused objection if Egg had been an immediate heir. Giving the Marcher Lords a voice is not the same as making the Realm follow to a half-Dondarrion king.

There is no sign that anyone ever objected to the Blackwood marriage because it involved the Blackwoods - the Blackwoods are an old, honorable, and powerful house. The objection was that Egg somehow made the choice himself, instead of accepting a match initiated and negotiated by his father. That's not supposed to happen. It's the father's prerogative to make the choice; the kids don't get to choose. That allows the father to put politics first, if he so chooses. We don't know the exact details of how Egg pulled it off, but we know he did.

As long as the Dondarrion marriage was Daeron's initiative and negotiated through him, there should have been no problem. And even Eustace Osgrey doesn't complain about Baelor's marriage - he complains about Daeron's, and the Dornish influence that went with it.

Most of Westeros has an anti-Dornish bias. They're prejudiced.

TRP indicated that pretty much only the Hightowers were noble enough to be married to a Targaryen king without raising concern over the nobility of the blood (especially since Ceryse Hightower was also the original bride of Maegor, and a Hightower bride had also been offered to Aegon I). The Arryns (and Manderlys) only got a spare daughter of Jaehaerys, and Aemma was a half-Targaryen reclaimed by the main branch.

TRP says nothing of the sort. (from TRP)

"The Hightowers of Oldtown were an ancient and noble family , of impeccable lineage ;"

It says nothing about them being "pretty much" the only house "noble enough" to marry Targs. The reason for the match was personal. Alicent had been at court and Viserys fell in love with her. They might have been sleeping together before the marriage.

To cut it short:

If Baelor and Aerys had been married to wives with no Targaryen blood, we should assume that the whole Blackfyre rebellion thing would have used that in their propaganda war against Daeron as well.

Why? Daemon Blackfyre married an up-jumped merchant's daughter from outside the kingdoms. He had no case against Daeron/Baelon on that issue. And Baelon's brothers Aerys and Maekar had classic Targ looks. (We don't get a description of Rhaegel.) The Targ blood was obviously still there. Even though most lords didn't have the expertise of a Willas Tyrell, they know that characteristics often skip a generation, but are still strong in the bloodline.

People clearly preferred Daemon due to his battle prowess (which Daeron lacked) as well as due to his Valyrian (which Baelor lacked), and they would have made use of that.

Baelor's looks were a weak excuse used as lame support by the Blackfyre supporters. The real reasons were the battle prowess issue and objections to Daeron's pro-Dornish policies. Daemon Blackfyre wasn't himself necessarily anti-Dornish, but he served as a rallying point for the anti-Dornish faction.

The major factor enabling BFR1 was anti-Dornish prejudice, and objections to Daeron's pro-Dornish policies. Without that, Daemon never would have attracted enough support to be a major problem.

In fact, I think part of the Targaryen political strength was that they did not marry into other houses, as this reinforced the notion that the Targaryens were above the 'common nobility'. When they started to become 'mere mortals' after they become embroiled in the usual marriage policy stuff.

But that was directly linked to the loss of the dragons. Good looks aren't enough. The aura surrounding the Valyrians always depended on dragons and magic. When those two factors were lost, the Targs were just another ruling family. Were good marrages as powerful as dragons? No, of course not. But they had to try.

If political marriages had become important, then Egg would not have allowed Daeron to break his betrothal (it seemed he had little choice with Duncan/Jenny and Jaehaerys/Shaera), and had most certainly not allowed Jaehaerys to force Aerys and Rhaella to marry each other.

The reason Aegon allowed his sons to make their own choices is explicitly stated to be that he himself made his own. Daeron's betrothal was made when he was nine. Once his sexual orientation became known, breaking the betrothal (and allowing Olenna to claim it was her doing) did more political good than enforcing it, as it allowed the Luthor-Olenna match to take place, cleaning up the problems left by both Shaera and Daeron. Jaehaerys' rights as Aerys and Rhaella's father trumped Aegon's as grandfather, and Jaehaerys abandoned the political policy in favor of prophecy.

[serdog]

Unless that is a reason why Aegon was unpopular with lords. Wasting Targ marriages. Thus to absolve it he names him to the KG? Dunk really isn't that great a fighter as of now.

He seem to become one Killing a Blackfyre pretender,presumably armed with the Blackfyre itself, and defending the Laughing Strom, who is know as a great warrior, in single combat

I think it more likley that Dunk married into Tarth, a fat pot of Summerhall Gold and the request of a prince of the Blood(or King) could make a Hedge Knight seem a great marriage for a younger daughter, and the Targ blood come either from 1) another marriage, Tarth has standing to marry Barthron or Hightower 2) Dunk being a bastard of Aegon IV by a whore