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Could the First Men have held off the Andals? If so, how?


TimJames

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Before the First Men migrated to Westros, it was ruled by the Children of the Forest. After fighting, they agreed to a truce and the First Men began to worship the Old Gods.

Than the Andals came, conquered the southern half of Westros, and converted that area to the Faith of the Seven.

If the First Men united fast enough, could they have driven off the Andals?

Why or why not?

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Well, they did. North, Westerlands, Iron Islands, Reach, Stormlands and Dorne are First Men regions. Only the Vale and the Riverlands were conquered and for the Riverlands it's debatable, what with 90% of all Riverkings being First Men and the Riverlands later being part of the First Men Stormlands and Iron Islands.


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Andals had steel against the First Men's bronze (like they had bronze against the children's obsidian). Plus they were seafaring people, unlike the FM, which gives you a massive advantage. Not sure there was much the FM could have done to stop the Andals.

The interesting question is how much Andal blood there actually is in Westeros. As was said above, the FM didn't lose out everywhere. Also, the Andals may not actually have had huge numbers (though def big enough).

Consider the situation of England. It was conquered by the Normans in 1066, virtually all nobles were replaced with new Norman ones, and for the next 200 years the official language of the kingdom was Norman French (and post-Conquest English is vastly changed because of this). And yet it's estimated that the Norman impact on the English gene pool was much less than that of the Celts, Angles, Saxons and Danes - because the Normans imported only a ruling elite, rather than a significant number of people.

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Numerically absolutely, WoIAF shows that the Andals really struggled conquering one of the weakest Westerosi provinces (even before the Gate of the Moon and the Eyrie).



When Vale first men tried and almost succeeded when they only occupied 25% of Vale land - it still resulted in a bloody pitched battle (of the Seven Stars? forget exactly)... Would be interesting if the Andals originally landed in the north first, it has twice as many bannermen and was much more united in the Age of Heroes.


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The Andals were more advanced and there were coming to Westeros like non stop, more and more were coming, the only way they held them was using Moat Cailin and King Theon who crossed the Narrow Sea and killed Andals in there, bringing their heads to Westeros and placing spikes on the coast with the heads as a warning.


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Numerically absolutely, WoIAF shows that the Andals really struggled conquering one of the weakest Westerosi provinces (even before the Gate of the Moon and the Eyrie).

When Vale first men tried and almost succeeded when they only occupied 25% of Vale land - it still resulted in a bloody pitched battle (of the Seven Stars? forget exactly)... Would be interesting if the Andals originally landed in the north first, it has twice as many bannermen and was much more united in the Age of Heroes.

We don't know how strong the kingdoms were at that point so we can't really say it was the weakest. The andals we're coming waves.

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The Andals were more advanced and there were coming to Westeros like non stop, more and more were coming, the only way they held them was using Moat Cailin and King Theon who crossed the Narrow Sea and killed Andals in there, bringing their heads to Westeros and placing spikes on the coast with the heads as a warning.

The Andals did land on the North's east and west coastline but the Northernmen held them back and defeated them.

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The Andals did land on the North's east and west coastline but the Northernmen held them back and defeated them.

That's what I said, then King Theon crossed the narrow sea and made his killing in the hills of Andalos, brought the heads back and put them on spikes along the coast as a warning for the next wannabe conqueror.

But that was a matter of luck. I think the Northeners were more united than the southern kingdoms, a lot of petty kings in the south.

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They could have seen the clear advantage in steel, and do some reification, and start making steel weapons and armor. As the Iron Isles show, there were/are iron deposits in Westeros, so the First Men had the raw materials, all they needed was the knowledge of steel-making.



The Egyptians threw out the Hyksos by adopting their technological innovations that gave them the initial advantage over the Egyptians when they invaded.


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Westerns is overwhelmingly Andalusia, blue. Many of the major houses may have started as first men, but they aren't anymore. Only the north is.

That said, if the first men had united against the annals it's possible that they could have held out despite the andals superior tech.

That's cultural, not militarily.

Militarily speaking, six out of eight regions successfully defended themselves and the seventh reestablished First Men rule pretty quickly. Only the Vale was successfully conquered and held by the Andals.

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I think they could. However certain strategies were needed.



a - the relationship with the children of the forest should have been further developed in such a way that each would consider one another as allies rather then just neighbors. The children's magic would have been useful against further invasions.



b - same thing with those living beyond the wall. Giants riding mammoths would have been quite a force against the Andals.



c - The first men should have encouraged trade and kept up with times. By the time the Andals invaded, their weapons were obsolete.



Ultimately they suffered the same fate of all insular empires.


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The First Men were able to make weapons and tools from iron. But iron weapons were inferior to bronze ones. Steel is superior to both but it requires higher temperatures to melt the iron enough to get rid of impurities and thus, more advanced furnaces.



We should also note that "Andal invasion of Westeros" is not an accurate term anymore. We should call it Andal migration or even Andal exodus.



The first Andals were employed as mercenaries by the First Men in their petty wars. The Andals didnot conquer regions in general. They just came on and on; intermarried with the First Men. That is how they held onto the land.



The religion of the Old Gods was not the actual religion of First Men. They adopted it from the CotF. With the arrival of the Andals, the dominions of the CotF dwindled even further in the South and they retreated slowly to the North. The CotF need forests and with the increase of human population, forest were cut down and fields were created in their places to feed the humans. With the CotF gone, the religion of the Old Gods below the Neck lost its ground and the Faith filled the vacuum.


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The religion of the Old Gods was not the actual religion of First Men. They adopted it from the CotF. With the arrival of the Andals, the dominions of the CotF dwindled even further in the South and they retreated slowly to the North. The CotF need forests and with the increase of human population, forest were cut down and fields were created in their places to feed the humans. With the CotF gone, the religion of the Old Gods below the Neck lost its ground and the Faith filled the vacuum.

I think this underestimates the religious zealotry of the Andals and the role the Faith played in inspiring the wars against the COTF and the FM. It seems the Faith compelled them to fight, rather than simply stepping in to fill a void.

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Well the Andals only conquered the Vale and the Riverlands and their dominion of the Riverlands fell to the Storm Kings when they tried to push the religion of the seven with the faith militant. Other kingdoms either were touched very lightly, like Dorne and the Reach. Or negotiated peace while retaining their own power, like the Stormlands.



Religious conversion isn't conquering. Ireland is a Christian country, they are Celts and not Romans.


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Well the Andals only conquered the Vale and the Riverlands and their dominion of the Riverlands fell to the Storm Kings when they tried to push the religion of the seven with the faith militant. Other kingdoms either were touched very lightly, like Dorne and the Reach. Or negotiated peace while retaining their own power, like the Stormlands.

Actually, Benedict the Just solved that issue first. A Bracken-Blackwood bastard, therefore a First Man.

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