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Daenerys big secret


Himura

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Here's mormont's quote from one of the other threads that this one is rehashing:


Since we're all very fond of Occam's Razor (which, by the way, states not that the simplest explanation is best, but that among competing explanations, the best is the one that requires fewest assumptions): it's surely worth noting that the lemon tree and the house with the red door are mentioned originally, and mainly, in AGOT. (There is one mention in ACOK, IIRC.)

Which of these two scenarios requires fewest assumptions?

1. Early in the series, the author had not yet worked out the geographical details of his world, in particular bits of it that had not yet actually appeared.

2. The author was planting a deliberate and subtle clue that a main character's childhood memories were false, as part of some subplot that remains undisclosed, indeed to which there are no other clues, in three subsequent volumes, but which will crop up at some point in the remaining two books.

Braavos was only a name in the first three books. There's no reason to think that this tree thing is a deliberate ruse.

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Look at the whole quote: 'Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty' and then consider which is more likely:

1, Dany, a princess and therefore a person of importance, was in fact staying with one of the mighty

OR

2, no1 is so inconceivable that she must have fabricated the entire memory in her mind and was in fact somewhere completely different.

There's also the supporting evidence where Dany reflects on how the one place where she ever felt safe (the house with the red door) was in fact a lie because that's where a marriage contract was signed by her trusted guardian and father figure. The same marriage contract that was witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos.

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I'm pretty sure they did have trees on Braavos. They just didn't cut them down because they used them as protection from the wind.



I believe that Dany was more than likely raised in Dorne as lemon trees are quite numerous there and the whole marriage contract would seem to suggest some type of contact with someone representing Dany, Perhaps Old Lord Willem?


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Or, like another poster stated, why Doran would go to the risk of bringing the Targaryens to Dorne to raise them, and then send them off to Essos, and lose track of them with Illyrio, and then try and fetch Dany WAY WAY later from Meereen. Just does not compute. If he had raised them in Dorne (which is plausible except for the lack of any evidence of this from Dany or Viserys), then his next step once they become more recognizable would be to move them in with his wife in Norvos.


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"There's no more wood." Dareon had paid the innkeep double for a room with a hearth, but none of them had realized that wood would be so costly here. Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty."

She remembers one lemon tree. Now Ser Willem Darry may not have been an important man in Braavos, but he definitely had money, since Dany remembers that he had servants. So I don't think he would have a problem affording a small garden.

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Poisonous soil should not be taken literally... It probably just means that the soil is extremely infertile, too infertile to successfully grow crops for example. The climate and the salty water probably doesn't help, either. However, this doesn't mean that you can't grow trees there at all. And lemon trees are not massive trees which require deep soil and a lot of water.



In any case, the Daenerys was living in Dorne theory makes no sense. Perhaps she was too little to know the difference, but what about Viserys? How come he didn't know? And Daenerys clearly remembers the servants throwing them out of the house when Ser Willem died. If they were living in Dorne how could this have happened? And how come they ended up in the Free Cities? If the Dornish had taken the (ridiculously great) risk of hiding them in Dorne, why did they send them off to the Free Cities later? What would be the logic behind that? Not to mention that the two last Targaryens were quite conspicuous, so their presence in a city was noticed, so people would have known that they were living in Braavos.


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I would believe that the lemon tree was actually in Dorne if the Sealord of Braavos hadn't signed the marriage pact along with Oberyn and Willem Darry...What,he came all the way to Dorne to sign a pact that didn't concern him?Also if they were in Dorne why did Oberyn sign and not Doran,the father of the bride?It's certainly an intriguing theory but it's full of holes


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Ah, the Occam's Razor thing again. How does that go again?



1. The Sealord of Braavos had a house with a red door built inside a special citrus greenhouse in his menagerie. He put his Targaryen foundlings there to keep them safe, but didn't bother to post any guards so that when Willem Darry died, the servants could freely steal all the valuables.



2. Dany grew up where lemons naturally grow.


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Ah, the Occam's Razor thing again. How does that go again?

1. The Sealord of Braavos had a house with a red door built inside a special citrus greenhouse in his menagerie. He put his Targaryen foundlings there to keep them safe, but didn't bother to post any guards so that when Willem Darry died, the servants could freely steal all the valuables.

2. Dany grew up where lemons naturally grow.

This may be simplistic with few assumptions but this doesn't fit in with what's actually stated in the text. Occam's razor doesn't mean we should disregard established facts.

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Ah, the Occam's Razor thing again. How does that go again?

1. The Sealord of Braavos had a house with a red door built inside a special citrus greenhouse in his menagerie. He put his Targaryen foundlings there to keep them safe, but didn't bother to post any guards so that when Willem Darry died, the servants could freely steal all the valuables.

Or...she lived in a house with a red door with the Darry, who happened to have at least one houseplant. They didnt live with the Sealord of Braavos, all that is stated is that he was a witness to the pack between Doran and Darry - which was brought by Oberyn. Oberyn called the meeting at the residence of the Sealord. The Sealord probably didnt give a crap what future alliances we being made between Dorne and the Targaryens, as long as he was made aware of them and could profit from them in the future if either party was powerful. That would also explain his lack of any protection.

2. Dany grew up where lemons naturally grow.

So that would necesitate Dany and Viserys traveling the Narrow Sea more than once, which neither Targaryen mentions. It would mean Dany and Viserys would have been living in Westeros for part of their childhood, which neither of them remembers or mentions. It would mean they were living in Dorne, which Doran doesnt mention, and his Arianne, who would be closer in age to the Targaryens, would have probably mentioned. It would also not make sense with whatever Doran and Oberyns long dormant plot suggested.

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Victarion Chainbreaker, I love how you post in this thread so sarcastically, yet refuse to fill any of the holes in your theory.



Trees do not grow in Bravos, SAVE FOR THE COURTS AND GARDENS OF THE MIGHTY, how complicated is that? Its not very complicated at all so I shouldn't have had to ask.



Dany lived in a big house with servants, those servants had no master other than Darry, Doran was alive the whole time, yet he did not sign the contract, nor did the Targs stay in 1 place, The Sealord of Bravos who signed the pact could have died, or he could have simply signed it to give credence to the document in exchange for payment and then washed his hands of the matter, either way it is much more likely for the Targs to not be under a lords protection in Bravos than it is in Dorne.



Any objection raised to Dany being in Bravos has been answered, yet none of the objections to her living in Dorne have been answered, I wonder why that could be?


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Victarion Chainbreaker, I love how you post in this thread so sarcastically, yet refuse to fill any of the holes in your theory.

Any objection raised to Dany being in Bravos has been answered, yet none of the objections to her living in Dorne have been answered, I wonder why that could be?

Agreed.

There is simply nothing to suggest Dany and Viserys ever set foot in Westeros since they were forced into exile. Nothing at all.

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Trees do not grow in Braavos except in courts and gardens of wealthy Braavosi. Firewood is costly, as is dung since the Braavosi use boats instead of horses, because they must be brought in by barges (IV:381)



Her caretaker Darry probably had enough money set aside for them to live in a house containing a court that had a lemontree in it, I think everyone is making to big of a deal about lemontrees. Sometimes a lemon is just a lemon.

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The climate is wrong. It's too cold to grow lemons in Braavos. I'd love to see a quote about how LEMON trees grow in the courts and gardens of the mighty. Can you find one? No?

How about this one (TWOW):

Seven hells, this place is damp, she heard her guard complain. Im chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?

Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis, the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of Kings Landing, fool. Cant you read a bloody map?

Well, can you?

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Ah, the Occam's Razor thing again. How does that go again?

1. The Sealord of Braavos had a house with a red door built inside a special citrus greenhouse in his menagerie. He put his Targaryen foundlings there to keep them safe, but didn't bother to post any guards so that when Willem Darry died, the servants could freely steal all the valuables.

2. Dany grew up where lemons naturally grow.

1. Willem Darry settled in a house with servants that had access to the "sweetwater river" (just as the houses of the wealthy in ancient rome) or lay even a short distance outside of Braavos and had it's own water supply there was a lemontree in the yard that would be sheltered in winter just like the lemontrees in northern Italy or it was kept in a pot and is moved inside the house and set behind a window facing south as they do in northern Germany. A lemontree was something remarkable, that's why Dany remembers it (it's also a highly symbolic detail used by Martin).

2. Or Dany grew up in a place where lemontrees are utterly unremarkable, but remembers that it was Braavos. And three books later we learn from a completly different POV that there was a marriage contract between Dany and Quentin that the Sealord of Braavos bothered to be witness to despite the utmost necessity to keep any political movements a secret.

Which is more likely?

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The climate is wrong. It's too cold to grow lemons in Braavos. I'd love to see a quote about how LEMON trees grow in the courts and gardens of the mighty. Can you find one? No?

How about this one (TWOW):

Seven hells, this place is damp, she heard her guard complain. Im chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?

Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis, the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of Kings Landing, fool. Cant you read a bloody map?

Well, can you?

Didn't Dany live in one of Lys or Myr early on? Don't have the books with me atm.

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