DSB Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 so tywin sees his much loved wife die birthing an embarrassment, only grudgingly allowed to live. much of the hatred/derision leveled toward tyrion was based, allegedly, on his behaviour - be it capering, whoring or whatever - but there has always been great animosity described as being felt by tywin toward his second son. why then would he bestow a clearly paternally derived moniker upon him? there are of course plenty of examples of paternal first-name derivatives, tywin from tytos, jeor to jorah, etc, etc.so not only must the familial abstract 'jamie' be considered odd for a first born son, but the later decision to compact the shame of a dwarf lannister by the coupling of a name so closely resembling the reluctant father be seen as rather strange. to me, anyway............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blue Knight Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 The ty- prefix doesn't just come from Tywin's name. It's probably the most common male Lannister name prefix.TytosTygettTyrekSay what you will, but not even Tywin can say that Tyrion is not a Lannister. He isn't named after his father, but is instead, in a sense, carrying on the Lannister name. There are exceptions to this naming tradition, however. This explains Jaime's name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dragon Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Though they sound similar, Tyrion was actually a name of some cruel Lannister king of old that did a lot of monstrosities and terrible things during his reign. I think either Tyrion or Cersei comments on it.... that said, I doubt Tywin meant the name kindly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikingkingq Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Tyrion isn't a version of Tywin tho. It's a traditional Lannister name that hasn't been used for a long time, and has a bad association. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blue Knight Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Though they sound similar, Tyrion was actually a name of some cruel Lannister king of old that did a lot of monstrosities and terrible things during his reign. I think either Tyrion or Cersei comments on it.... that said, I doubt Tywin meant the name kindly. I don't know. What I do remember is Cersei saying how Tyrion used to be a noble name, but the current Tyrion (the Imp) ruined the name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowCastle Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Maybe they already went through the baby name book and settled on Tyrion before he was born... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSB Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 The ty- prefix doesn't just come from Tywin's name. It's probably the most common male Lannister name prefix. Tytos Tygett Tyrek Say what you will, but not even Tywin can say that Tyrion is not a Lannister. He isn't named after his father, but is instead, in a sense, carrying on the Lannister name. There are exceptions to this naming tradition, however. This explains Jaime's name. firstly, tywins dying words do,in fact, do just that. the choice of jaimes name is not inexplicable or without precedent, but shows tywins willingness to divert from any familial naming traditions, in the naming of his heir (both at birth and up until very recently before tywins demise) and the carrier of the family. i am not saying all children are named homagically to their ancestors, but that to forsake any such non-compulsary tradition with a first-born, but to recognise it for a tragically birthed and resented addition to the fold is not logical, by my reckoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Though they sound similar, Tyrion was actually a name of some cruel Lannister king of old that did a lot of monstrosities and terrible things during his reign. I think either Tyrion or Cersei comments on it.... that said, I doubt Tywin meant the name kindly. That's a popular idea, based on nothing. The cruel Lannister king was mentioned in TWOIAF and thus everyone assumed that Tywin named Tyrion after him, ignoring the fact that there were other kings with a name Tyrion after the cruel one ( one is mentioned), as well as Cersei telling that it was a noble name that the current Tyrion ruined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 firstly, tywins dying words do,in fact, do just that. the choice of jaimes name is not inexplicable or without precedent, but shows tywins willingness to divert from any familial naming traditions, in the naming of his heir (both at birth and up until very recently before tywins demise) and the carrier of the family. i am not saying all children are named homagically to their ancestors, but that to forsake any such non-compulsary tradition with a first-born, but to recognise it for a tragically birthed and resented addition to the fold is not logical, by my reckoning. And what are Lannister naming traditions? For all we know, the name Jaime perfectly fits these traditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSB Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 Though they sound similar, Tyrion was actually a name of some cruel Lannister king of old that did a lot of monstrosities and terrible things during his reign. I think either Tyrion or Cersei comments on it.... that said, I doubt Tywin meant the name kindly. not so sure tywin 'r-of-c' lannister would define 'monstrosities and terrible things' in a orthodox way, and being committed by a lannister, let alone a kingly one, would be thought of quite differently by the cyborg that is tywin. so naming tyrion after such, which i was not aware of, would only compound my lack of understanding regarding the name-choice. any historical lannister, the longer the historical chapter granted, regardless of reasons, the more tywin would approve, i think. what is legacy? asks tywin. i dont know, what shoes are they wearing, replied gerion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSB Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 And what are Lannister naming traditions? For all we know, the name Jaime perfectly fits these traditions. no, what we know is it defies them. we have very little info, far too little to reach any reliable conclusion, but based on the little there is, it defies them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSB Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 That's a popular idea, based on nothing. The cruel Lannister king was mentioned in TWOIAF and thus everyone assumed that Tywin named Tyrion after him, ignoring the fact that there were other kings with a name Tyrion after the cruel one ( one is mentioned), as well as Cersei telling that it was a noble name that the current Tyrion ruined. as with her father, cerseis definition of both 'noble' and 'cruel' would differ greatly from the norm, most noticeably when in reference to the character or actions of a lannister or by a lannister loyalist. i cannot recall a negative thought by cersei toward gregor, and less certainly regarding his brother. both cruel and responsible for generally perceived as terrible acts. she feels only euphoria at the news of several lannister-positive tidings of tragedy, like the red wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSB Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 That's a popular idea, based on nothing. The cruel Lannister king was mentioned in TWOIAF and thus everyone assumed that Tywin named Tyrion after him, ignoring the fact that there were other kings with a name Tyrion after the cruel one ( one is mentioned), as well as Cersei telling that it was a noble name that the current Tyrion ruined. whos pov attributed the 'cruel' prefix, and was it speech/consciousness sourced, or reading/recollection of 'accepted (current) fact' such as a book or history? just wondered as to the describer, insofar as the prejudice, of either type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blue Knight Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Even though the ty- prefix is a Lannister tradition, there have been many other Lannisters without this name. Not having ty- in your name does not make you less of a Lannister, and likewise having ty- in your name does not make you more of one. Jaime and Tyrion are both acceptable Lannister names that have no basis in Tywin's own name. Tywin gave both of his children Lannister names, it just so happens the name Tywin chose for Tyrion has ty- in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSB Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 Even though the ty- prefix is a Lannister tradition, there have been many other Lannisters without this name. Not having ty- in your name does not make you less of a Lannister, and likewise having ty- in your name does not make you more of one. Jaime and Tyrion are both acceptable Lannister names that have no basis in Tywin's own name. Tywin gave both of his children Lannister names, it just so happens the name Tywin chose for Tyrion has ty- in it. if ty is a lannister tradition, having ty in your name would make you more of a lannister. a more traditional lannister, and what is the name lannister - or any house name - if not the very personification of traditionalism? it would not, by my reckoning, be of no significance to tywin, who was very aware of the need for good 'family branding' in the impressionable 7k. it could not be allowed for even the much-shunned imp to be molested with impunity, and the rumors of his golden bowel persist, years after the very bowels of the earth ceased to yield a nugget. nor would one so well versed in the on-goings of the entire realm be ignorant of the trend and its ramifications, good, bad, large and small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 whos pov attributed the 'cruel' prefix, and was it speech/consciousness sourced, or reading/recollection of 'accepted (current) fact' such as a book or history? just wondered as to the describer, insofar as the prejudice, of either type. The 'cruel' prefix comes from a history book. The cruel king Tyrion is not mentioned at all in the actual ASOIAF books so nor Cersei, not Tywin would not call him noble because they were likely taught from childhood that he was a bad king. Even though the ty- prefix is a Lannister tradition, there have been many other Lannisters without this name. Not having ty- in your name does not make you less of a Lannister, and likewise having ty- in your name does not make you more of one. Jaime and Tyrion are both acceptable Lannister names that have no basis in Tywin's own name. Tywin gave both of his children Lannister names, it just so happens the name Tywin chose for Tyrion has ty- in it. I would not call the ty- prefix a tradition. It's more like a cultural thing. Like in our world German and English people have different name pools, same is in Westeros, where people from Westerlands and Stormlands too would have different name pools. The Lannister name pool just have many name with ty- prefix and the name "Tywin" or "Tyrion" would not be more noble than the name "Jaime". The fact that Tybald, Tytos and Tywin - the three consecutive lords have ty-prefix is probably just a coincidence as in TWOIAF there were mentioned a lot of Lannister kings without ty-prefix. This prefix is not special or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSB Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 The 'cruel' prefix comes from a history book. The cruel king Tyrion is not mentioned at all in the actual ASOIAF books so nor Cersei, not Tywin would not call him noble because they were likely taught from childhood that he was a bad king. I would not call the ty- prefix a tradition. It's more like a cultural thing. Like in our world German and English people have different name pools, same is in Westeros, where people from Westerlands and Stormlands too would have different name pools. The Lannister name pool just have many name with ty- prefix and the name "Tywin" or "Tyrion" would not be more noble than the name "Jaime". The fact that Tybald, Tytos and Tywin - the three consecutive lords have ty-prefix is probably just a coincidence as in TWOIAF there were mentioned a lot of Lannister kings without ty-prefix. This prefix is not special or whatever. coincidence? as in random unconnected events? i think that the chance of none of the fathers knew, at the time of choosing their sons name, that it would contain the culturally significant first letters and syllable of their own; and later of their fathers, and fathers father. a maester would have pointed it out, should the spelling or sounding of their own name elude them. just as the teaching of tyrion, jaime, cersei and tywin all relied on the resident maester, some interpretation in the favor of your lord and host would be a wise masters tendency. and nobility was never mentioned, being ambiguous, subjective and irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSB Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 the 'cruel' prefix is in awoiaf then? some back-filling maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Reckoner Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Sounds like the way you start to pronounce tiger. Lannisters confirmed for furries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSB Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 Sounds like the way you start to pronounce tiger. Lannisters confirmed for furries. or tyrant/rannical. ranasoraus rex. (why not?) tyne and wear, or tyneside. tywin could be a geordie, cersei is drinking more............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.