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For a sword so awesome, it has remained low key...not even Darkstar has it.



the word itself, dawn, is that which ushers in the light from the dark.



Dawn will bring light into the world. The sword dawn is lightbringer, as many fans have theorized. Not a fact, but a good guess. There are no facts until the printed words are read. Since AA happened thousands of years ago, perhaps the language back then was crude. Think about how we mock cavemen. This sounds silly but bare with me. Me caveman, me take your house, me want food. Me hungry. What if the word lightbringer was just a crude word used from the first signs of english, eventually evolving to the word dawn, which is similar in meaning. Hopefully, that made sense.



With that said, dawn should make an appearance soon. The fact that it has remained out of the picture for some time would mean, I hope, that we have not heard the end of it.




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I don't think LB was an actual sword, but a metaphor for something else.



As for Dawn, I think we will see it again. I think Darkstar will steal it; the guy has a huge chip in his shoulder regarding Arthur, saying it was only the sword. He would probably arrive at Starfall, ostensibly to get a tapestry, but he would roll up Dawn in it.



I think the next place we'd see him is KL as the Dornish new master-at-arms, Cersei wanted. We would see Dawn in her POV.


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I think Dawn was the original Lightbringer. Both were said to be forged in a "heart": Nissa Nissa for LB, and the heart of a falling star for Dawn. Well, that falling star need not be literal. After all, the Daynes do have a falling star on their sigil, so you could refer to a Dayne as a falling star the same way you refer to a Lannister as a lion, etc. Credit to Lady Gwyn and Yolkboy for that last part.


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I don't think Dawn was the original LB and nor it will be the new LB. It is confirmed that Dawn existed throughout the Andal era but nothing is said for the previous times. It does not make sense for a two handed great sword to be made at an era where steel technology did not exist.



The myth of AA forging LB cannot be literally true because AA was forging a steel sword by hammering and folding. This means the myth of AA was created much later than what really happened during the LN.



The LH was the one true hero of the LN who fought the Others and ended the LN. The Others Essossi heroes revealed in TWOIAF (including AA) were later creations based on the half-distorted tales of the LH coming from Westeros.



We do see such an example in Westeros too. There is a historical Artys Arryn but in order for the Andals to cement their hold onto the Vale, he was imbued with old legends dating from the Age of Heroes.



There is abundant historical evidence for the existence of Ser Artys Arryn, the Falcon Knight, the first Arryn king to rule over Mountain and Vale. His victory over King Robar II at the Battle of the Seven Stars is well attested to, even though the details of that victory might have been somewhat embroidered in the centuries that followed. King Artys was undoubtedly a real man, albeit an extraordinary one.



In the Vale, however, the deeds of this real historical personage have become utterly confused with those of his legendary namesake, another Artys Arryn, who lived many thousands of years earlier during the Age of Heroes, and is remembered in song and story as the Winged Knight.



The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command. To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant’s Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son.



A hundred other tales are told of him, most of them just as fanciful. It is highly unlikely that such a man ever existed; like Lann the Clever in the westerlands, and Brandon the Builder in the North, the Winged Knight is made of legend, not of flesh and blood. If such a hero ever walked the Mountains and Vale, far back in the dim mists of the Dawn Age, his name was certainly not Artys Arryn, for the Arryns came from pure Andal stock, and this Winged Knight lived and flew and fought many thousands of years before the first Andals came to Westeros.



Like as not, it was the singers of the Vale who conflated these two figures, attributing the deeds of the legendary Winged Knight to the historic Falcon Knight, perhaps in order to curry favor with the real Artys Arryn’s successors by placing this great hero of the First Men amongst their forebears.



The Winged Knight was clearly a skinchanger and even a dragonrider who married a female CotF and allied with the giants and merlings.



In Essos, people did not see the Others but they suffered greatly due to blocking of the sun, the death of vegetation, famine, plague, mass migrations etc. No doubt they had leaders during this turmoil and later generations erroneously attributed the end of the LN to them instead of an anonymous guy from Sunset Kingdoms.


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My rather unpopular take is that Dawn is not Lightbringer, but rather the 'bleeding star' from the comet - it was forged from a star, and was bleeding at the TOJ... Also, Aemon, when realizing that they had it all wrong, includes 'we thought the bleeding star was the comet' before 'what fools we were', which to me implies the bleeding star was not the comet, or at least Aemon doesn't think so (anymore).


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Welcome to the forums.

The sword Dawn has miffed & baffled many of us since it was first described.

I too hope that sword will make an appearance, but there is only one person who knows the truth of it.

Hello! yes, baffling indeed

Although it was said, that Ned returned it after the Tower of Joy. I don't think he would have been able to do up a forgery. Some have said they think it is in the crypts of winterfell but I do not believe that.

Not our honorable fool...never.

I don't think LB was an actual sword, but a metaphor for something else.

As for Dawn, I think we will see it again. I think Darkstar will steal it; the guy has a huge chip in his shoulder regarding Arthur, saying it was only the sword. He would probably arrive at Starfall, ostensibly to get a tapestry, but he would roll up Dawn in it.

I think the next place we'd see him is KL as the Dornish new master-at-arms, Cersei wanted. We would see Dawn in her POV.

Cersei wanted Darkstar?

I think Dawn was the original Lightbringer. Both were said to be forged in a "heart": Nissa Nissa for LB, and the heart of a falling star for Dawn. Well, that falling star need not be literal. After all, the Daynes do have a falling star on their sigil, so you could refer to a Dayne as a falling star the same way you refer to a Lannister as a lion, etc. Credit to Lady Gwyn and Yolkboy for that last part.

this gets me thinking...never put two and two together on this. especially the "star" part.

I don't think Dawn was the original LB and nor it will be the new LB. It is confirmed that Dawn existed throughout the Andal era but nothing is said for the previous times. It does not make sense for a two handed great sword to be made at an era where steel technology did not exist.

The myth of AA forging LB cannot be literally true because AA was forging a steel sword by hammering and folding. This means the myth of AA was created much later than what really happened during the LN.

The LH was the one true hero of the LN who fought the Others and ended the LN. The Others Essossi heroes revealed in TWOIAF (including AA) were later creations based on the half-distorted tales of the LH coming from Westeros.

We do see such an example in Westeros too. There is a historical Artys Arryn but in order for the Andals to cement their hold onto the Vale, he was imbued with old legends dating from the Age of Heroes.

There is abundant historical evidence for the existence of Ser Artys Arryn, the Falcon Knight, the first Arryn king to rule over Mountain and Vale. His victory over King Robar II at the Battle of the Seven Stars is well attested to, even though the details of that victory might have been somewhat embroidered in the centuries that followed. King Artys was undoubtedly a real man, albeit an extraordinary one.

In the Vale, however, the deeds of this real historical personage have become utterly confused with those of his legendary namesake, another Artys Arryn, who lived many thousands of years earlier during the Age of Heroes, and is remembered in song and story as the Winged Knight.

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command. To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant’s Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son.

A hundred other tales are told of him, most of them just as fanciful. It is highly unlikely that such a man ever existed; like Lann the Clever in the westerlands, and Brandon the Builder in the North, the Winged Knight is made of legend, not of flesh and blood. If such a hero ever walked the Mountains and Vale, far back in the dim mists of the Dawn Age, his name was certainly not Artys Arryn, for the Arryns came from pure Andal stock, and this Winged Knight lived and flew and fought many thousands of years before the first Andals came to Westeros.

Like as not, it was the singers of the Vale who conflated these two figures, attributing the deeds of the legendary Winged Knight to the historic Falcon Knight, perhaps in order to curry favor with the real Artys Arryn’s successors by placing this great hero of the First Men amongst their forebears.

The Winged Knight was clearly a skinchanger and even a dragonrider who married a female CotF and allied with the giants and merlings.

In Essos, people did not see the Others but they suffered greatly due to blocking of the sun, the death of vegetation, famine, plague, mass migrations etc. No doubt they had leaders during this turmoil and later generations erroneously attributed the end of the LN to them instead of an anonymous guy from Sunset Kingdoms.

i'm listening to a WOIAF...i keep falling asleep (thats what happens when i listen to audio and not read)

I dunno, I always thought Dawn was just a red herring, but I could be wrong.

with this author, I wonder. does he love to do things like this based on his previous stories not ASOIAF related?

My rather unpopular take is that Dawn is not Lightbringer, but rather the 'bleeding star' from the comet - it was forged from a star, and was bleeding at the TOJ... Also, Aemon, when realizing that they had it all wrong, includes 'we thought the bleeding star was the comet' before 'what fools we were', which to me implies the bleeding star was not the comet, or at least Aemon doesn't think so (anymore).

If only Old Nan spoke of lightbringer, then we would know the truth.

So,if Dawn is not the LB,imagine the irony,since dawn brings light to the world...

I never saw Lightbringer as a sword,but who knows? :dunno:

"It has been foretold in the books at Asshai that when the stars bleed and the cold winds blow, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. That sword will be Lightbringer. The one who draws it will be Azor Ahai reborn"

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I don't think Dawn was the original LB and nor it will be the new LB. It is confirmed that Dawn existed throughout the Andal era but nothing is said for the previous times. It does not make sense for a two handed great sword to be made at an era where steel technology did not exist.

The myth of AA forging LB cannot be literally true because AA was forging a steel sword by hammering and folding. This means the myth of AA was created much later than what really happened during the LN.

Maybe it wasn't made out of steel.

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Cersei wanted Darkstar?

She wants a Dornish master-at-arms to piss off the Tyrells. Darkstar could use a different name, dye his hair, and maybe grow a beard. He could dye his whole hair blonde, and add to that his violet eyes; well, Cersei has a thing for guys who bear some resemblance to Rhaegar.

Killing Tommen would be a way to get back into the good graces of Arianne and into the good graces of Aegon, by killing off Aegon's rival king (before Dany arrives).

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For a sword so awesome, it has remained low key...not even Darkstar has it.

the word itself, dawn, is that which ushers in the light from the dark.

Dawn will bring light into the world. The sword dawn is lightbringer, as many fans have theorized. Not a fact, but a good guess. There are no facts until the printed words are read. Since AA happened thousands of years ago, perhaps the language back then was crude. Think about how we mock cavemen. This sounds silly but bare with me. Me caveman, me take your house, me want food. Me hungry. What if the word lightbringer was just a crude word used from the first signs of english, eventually evolving to the word dawn, which is similar in meaning. Hopefully, that made sense.

With that said, dawn should make an appearance soon. The fact that it has remained out of the picture for some time would mean, I hope, that we have not heard the end of it.

I do not think it is the Literal lightbringer, mostly because it is not on fire or hot, but I do like to entertain the theory that it was the sword wielded by the last hero. Dawn and the runic bronze armor of the Royces are the only truly ancient weapons we see, and both are kept in good working order.

Maybe it wasn't made out of steel.

/\This/\ Dawn is a truly unique sword unlike anything else in the books. there is no way to judge when it was made because of this. The first men had bronze except for the Iron islands, which is what made them so badass. Essos had steel for quite some time but even when the Andals were crossing the narrow sea, the Valyrians were making their own brand of steel swords. The Corbrays had one.

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Here is my somewhat out there theory of Dawn. I believe that Dawn is not Lightbringer but was wielded by the Last Hero who was a different figure from AA. AA is a legend from Asshai in the far east and possibly fought the Others there as part of a different legend.



Firstly, Starfall, the seat of House Dayne was built where the first Dayne tracked falling star to a rock of magical powers. The Daynes are an ancient house who came at the time of the breaking. In the same way that the Red Comet is foreshadowing (or causing) or the onset of night/winter and the return of the Others the original "falling star" did the same at the onset of the Long Night. A falling star that hits earth is a meteorite and meteorites are often pieces of comets and the rock of magical powers was a form of obsidian created from the impact of the falling star or when it exploded. It is said that Dawn is thousands of years old and its origins are lost to legend.



So, I suspect the first Dayne was the Last Hero. He had a regular sword that shattered due to the cold but the CoTF told him the secrets of destroying Others with obsidian. He returned to Starfall and created Dawn from the magical rock. There are forms of obsidian that are "pale as milk glass" as Dawn is described. For example on earth there is Libyan Desert Glass that was formed this way. Obsidian can be sharper than steel but brittle. The magical aspect of the rock from which it was made is that it is a type of pale obsidian that is also as strong as steel. The magic could also give to the ability to burn although Lightbringer was a different sword.



The final battle against the Others to end the long Night was called the Battle for the Dawn - which is where the original name of the sword came from - and the first Dayne in addition to being the Last Hero created the title of the holder of Dawn as Sword of the Morning.



If this is true I believe that Jon may be the son of Lyanna and Arthur Dayne and based on this Eddard's promise was to ensure that Jon some day should venture to Starfall to retrieve Dawn. This will be timely given the return of the Others in Jon's role as the Next Last Hero.

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Obsidian was used by the CotF in their fight with the First Men when they came 4000 years before the LN. Even today wildlings have obsidian weapons. A fat man (re)discovered that the Others can be slain by obsidian and we do not see any wildling or Mance being surprised to hear that. I do not doubt a bit that the First Men already had obsidian weapons and were using them against the Others during the LN. It was necessary but obviously not enough.



So, the knowledge of obsidian being an anathema to the Others is unlikely to be the big secret the LH got from the CotF.



It also does not make sense for the CotF to teach the LH an alloy technology by fusing iron and obsidian, being the primitive beings they are still today. And as I said before, hammering and folding technique belnogs to a much advanced age similar to the construction of a two handed great sword.


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Obsidian was used by the CotF in their fight with the First Men when they came 4000 years before the LN. Even today wildlings have obsidian weapons. A fat man (re)discovered that the Others can be slain by obsidian and we do not see any wildling or Mance being surprised to hear that. I do not doubt a bit that the First Men already had obsidian weapons and were using them against the Others during the LN. It was necessary but obviously not enough.

So, the knowledge of obsidian being an anathema to the Others is unlikely to be the big secret the LH got from the CotF.

It also does not make sense for the CotF to teach the LH an alloy technology by fusing iron and obsidian, being the primitive beings they are still today. And as I said before, hammering and folding technique belnogs to a much advanced age similar to the construction of a two handed great sword.

Do you think maybe that part of the myth could have been incorporated later on?

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Do you think maybe that part of the myth could have been incorporated later on?

I think the entire AA myth was created later on, possibly 5000 years ago in Asshai where the Red Religion was formed under the culture hero named AA who fought the darkness 3000 years ago and prophecized to come again.

However, there surely must be some elements in the AA myth which still bear resemblance to the source myth (which was the LH IMO).

I think the LH was Brandon the Builder and the boon he got from the CotF was skinchanging. I also think that AA is not the only hero who imported things from the LH legend. There is this legendary Winged Knight from the Age of Heroes who rode a huge falcon which is interpreted as riding a dragon. He married a female CotF. Since we believe in the moon cracking to give birth to dragons = childbirth interpretation, perhaps that was exactly what happened. The LH married a female CotF and she obviously died while giving birth to a human baby. TWOIAF multiplied the cases of interbreeding between races.

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