R+L=J v.120

[markg171]

Try actually parsing out that quote...

How about you do?

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. “No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”

Bran asks if the KG are the finest knights in the realm. He never asks Ned if they are good bodyguards, which is what the KG are. He wants to know if they are good knights.

“Was there one who was best of all?”

Bran asks if there was a KG knight who was the finest knight of all. He's building off of his original question.

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

Ned answers Bran's question of who the finest knight of the KG ever was, and Ned answers Dayne.

There is absolutely nothing here talking about what a good KG is, nor who was one. The question is about who were the finest knights, and who was the greatest knight of this league of the greatest knights.

[Kingmonkey]

TL;DR Ned never actually calls Dayne, Hightower, or Whent the greatest KG he ever saw, he calls Dayne the best knight he ever saw as that's what Bran asks, and Barristan the man who Ned believes is the greatest living knight is not a great example of a KG as he admits he would have tried to kill his king. So being a great knight does not equal being a great KG. This is a complete lie being portrayed on here.

I've said in the past that you don't half talk a lot of nonsense at times. So to be fair, I have to say that you're talking a lot of sense here. I wish you hadn't ended it with that "lie" line, though. Someone can disagree with you, and even be wrong in doing so, without lying. Just as when you (as anyone else) makes a mistake, it's not a lie, it's just a mistake.

The counter argument to what you say is that while Ned does indeed refer to Dayne as the best knight, it is within the context of discussing Kingsguards. Thus while it is as a knight not a kingsguard that Ned is evaluating Dayne, that has to come into it. The Kingsguard are held to a higher knightly standard than other knights. Had Dayne been a dismal failure as a Kingsguard, it would be hard to see him being considered the finest knight. By the same token, if Dayne is the finest knight, then that says a lot about his qualities as a Kingsguard, because the Kingsguard (with the exception of The Hound) are knights.

Ultimately we don't know Ned's grounds for choosing Arthur. I think it's certainly entirely feasible that Ned could consider him the finest knight even if he had broken his Kingsguard vows, had he done so in a manner Ned considered honourable. Killing a king -- even a king Ned hated, would have put him beyond the pale. We see that from Ned's attitude towards Jaime. On the other hand, would Ned have approved of Boros Blount fulfilling his Kingsguard oath to obey by hitting Sansa when Joffrey ordered him to? Hardly. I'm pretty sure he'd place a Kingsguard who refused to follow an immoral order over one who obeyed them when doing his "Best knight" rankings.

I suspect the way Jaime orders the KG to disobey the king in future when given an order to beat Sansa, a direct rejection of the KG oath, is intended to refer back to Aerys' kingsguard and the whole business with Hightower telling Jaime "You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him".

In fact, I will right now bet one hundred imaginary gold dragons that by the end of the series we'll learn that Arthur Dayne was very unhappy with Aerys' behaviour and was more interested in judging him than guarding him by the time of the ToJ encounter.

[sj4iy]

I think Ned chooses Arthur because:

1. He was a legendary swordsman- more so than Hightower or Whent

2. He was a legendary fighter

3. He exemplified being a knight

4. He exemplified being a KG

5. Ned had to kill him

Really, it's not that hard to see why he would choose Dayne over the others.

[IceFire125]

Bran asks if the KG are the finest knights in the realm. He never asks Ned if they are good bodyguards, which is what the KG are. He wants to know if they are good knights.

Bran asks if there was a KG knight who was the finest knight of all. He's building off of his original question.

Ned answers Bran's question of who the finest knight of the KG ever was, and Ned answers Dayne.

There is absolutely nothing here talking about what a good KG is, nor who was one. The question is about who were the finest knights, and who was the greatest knight of this league of the greatest knights.

Of course not, it's the FINEST of all the knights that's ever been in all of Westeros. Being a 'good' Kingsguard is subjective, the question should be, were these knights obeying and keeping their vows???

And you again, conveniently forgetting the context Bran is using in the question. tsk tsk. :closedeyes:

Two of the Kingsguard had come north with King Robert. Bran had watched them with fascination, never quite daring to speak to them. Ser Boros was a bald man with a jowly face, and Ser Meryn had droopy eyes and a beard the color of rust. Ser Jaime Lannister looked more like the knights in the stories, and he was of the Kingsguard too, but Robb said he had killed the old mad king and shouldn’t count anymore. The greatest living knight was Ser Barristan Selmy, Barristan the Bold, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

For days, Bran could scarcely wait to be off. He was going to ride the kingsroad on a horse of his own, not a pony but a real horse. His father would be the Hand of the King, and they were going to live in the red castle at King’s Landing, the castle the Dragonlords had built. Old Nan said there were ghosts there, and dungeons where terrible things had been done, and dragon heads on the walls. It gave Bran a shiver just to think of it, but he was not afraid. How could he be afraid? His father would be with him, and the king with all his knights and sworn swords.

Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another’s swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

--

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield - (legendary knight of the Kingsguard, well liked by the common people)

“Ser Barristan was the Lord Commander of Robert Baratheon’s Kingsguard,” Tyrion reminded her pointedly. “He and Jaime are the only survivors of Aerys Targaryen’s seven. The smallfolk talk of him in the same way they talk of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. What do you imagine they’ll think when they see Barristan the Bold riding beside Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon?”

Cersei glanced away. “I had not considered that.”

“Father did,” said Tyrion. “That is why he sent me. To put an end to these follies and bring your son to heel.”

Ser Ryam Redwyne - (served as Hand of the King and Lord Commander)

He looked about the Round Room once more. White wool hangings covered the walls, and there was a white shield and two crossed longswords mounted above the hearth. The chair behind the table was old black oak, with cushions of blanched cowhide, the leather worn thin. Worn by the bony arse of Barristan the Bold and Ser Gerold Hightower before him, by Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redwyne, and the Demon of Darry, by Ser Duncan the Tall and the Pale Griffin Alyn Connington. How could the Kingslayer belong in such exalted company?

Prince Aemon the Dragonknight-

Aegon’s resentment of his noble, celebrated brother was plain to all, for the king delighted in slighting Aemon and Naerys both at every turn. Even after the Dragonknight died in (the King's) defense

Ser Erryk - Rhaenyra’s sworn shield, fought against twin brother, Arryk, died doing his duty.

Ser Arryk - Obeying the commands of the Lord Commander, even to kill his brother in the process, died doing his duty.

Barristan The Bold-

His father had not raised his voice, yet Tyrion could see the anger in the gold of his eyes. “And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served...”

Ser Arthur Dayne & Lord Commander Hightower are well known here in RLJ threads... but to continue with context-

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

HOWEVER, for Ned, from all of these knights, the finest of of them all is The Sword of The Morning, Ser Arthur Dayne!

Now, do you get the context???

[King Tyrion XX]

Surely there is something of more value to discuss than who the finset knight was.

Like why would Rhaegar and Lyanna shack up in a rundown watch tower by a frequented roadside?

[corbon]

How about you do?

Bran asks if the KG are the finest knights in the realm. He never asks Ned if they are good bodyguards, which is what the KG are. He wants to know if they are good knights.

Bran asks if there was a KG knight who was the finest knight of all. He's building off of his original question.

Ned answers Bran's question of who the finest knight of the KG ever was, and Ned answers Dayne.

There is absolutely nothing here talking about what a good KG is, nor who was one. The question is about who were the finest knights, and who was the greatest knight of this league of the greatest knights.

sigh

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms.

The subject is the Kingsguard. Bran asked about the Kingsguard, and if they were the finest knights. Not asking about the finest knights in general.

“No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”

There's that 'they'. The Kingsguard were once a marvel, the finest knights in the seven kingdoms, a shining lesson to the world.

“Was there one who was best of all?”

The subject is still the Kingsguard. When they were the finest knights. Which one was the best of them - the best KG that is, not merely the best knight (although the best KG was the best knight at the time)

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

Dayne is the answer to Bran's question about which was the finest KG ever. He was also, as Ned expanded, the finest knight (in Ned's view), so even better than just the finest KG, but the question was who was the finest KG.

So yes, Ned's answer says Dayne was the finest KG. He also expands that and states that Dayne was the finest knight he ever saw.

'Bodyguards' is not relevant here, The KG are far more than bodyguards, though that is their first duty. They are bodyguards yes, but also (were, no longer necessarily are) leaders, policemen, generals, exemplars for all knights everywhere.

[markg171]

Of course not, it's the FINEST of all the knights that's ever been in all of Westeros. Being a 'good' Kingsguard is subjective, the question should be, were these knights obeying and keeping their vows???

And you again, conveniently forgetting the context Bran is using in the question. tsk tsk. :closedeyes:

Two of the Kingsguard had come north with King Robert. Bran had watched them with fascination, never quite daring to speak to them. Ser Boros was a bald man with a jowly face, and Ser Meryn had droopy eyes and a beard the color of rust. Ser Jaime Lannister looked more like the knights in the stories, and he was of the Kingsguard too, but Robb said he had killed the old mad king and shouldnt count anymore. The greatest living knight was Ser Barristan Selmy, Barristan the Bold, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

For days, Bran could scarcely wait to be off. He was going to ride the kingsroad on a horse of his own, not a pony but a real horse. His father would be the Hand of the King, and they were going to live in the red castle at Kings Landing, the castle the Dragonlords had built. Old Nan said there were ghosts there, and dungeons where terrible things had been done, and dragon heads on the walls. It gave Bran a shiver just to think of it, but he was not afraid. How could he be afraid? His father would be with him, and the king with all his knights and sworn swords.

Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one anothers swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

--

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield - (legendary knight of the Kingsguard, well liked by the common people)

Ser Barristan was the Lord Commander of Robert Baratheons Kingsguard, Tyrion reminded her pointedly. He and Jaime are the only survivors of Aerys Targaryens seven. The smallfolk talk of him in the same way they talk of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. What do you imagine theyll think when they see Barristan the Bold riding beside Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon?

Cersei glanced away. I had not considered that.

Father did, said Tyrion. That is why he sent me. To put an end to these follies and bring your son to heel.

Ser Ryam Redwyne - (served as Hand of the King and Lord Commander)

He looked about the Round Room once more. White wool hangings covered the walls, and there was a white shield and two crossed longswords mounted above the hearth. The chair behind the table was old black oak, with cushions of blanched cowhide, the leather worn thin. Worn by the bony arse of Barristan the Bold and Ser Gerold Hightower before him, by Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redwyne, and the Demon of Darry, by Ser Duncan the Tall and the Pale Griffin Alyn Connington. How could the Kingslayer belong in such exalted company?

Prince Aemon the Dragonknight-

Aegons resentment of his noble, celebrated brother was plain to all, for the king delighted in slighting Aemon and Naerys both at every turn. Even after the Dragonknight died in (the King's) defense

Ser Erryk - Rhaenyras sworn shield, fought against twin brother, Arryk, died doing his duty.

Ser Arryk - Obeying the commands of the Lord Commander, even to kill his brother in the process, died doing his duty.

Barristan The Bold-

His father had not raised his voice, yet Tyrion could see the anger in the gold of his eyes. And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served...

Ser Arthur Dayne & Lord Commander Hightower are well known here in RLJ threads... but to continue with context-

When Kings Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.

Far away, Ser Gerold said, or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.

I came down on Storms End to lift the siege, Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.

Our knees do not bend easily, said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.

Ser Willem is a good man and true, said Ser Oswell.

But not of the Kingsguard, Ser Gerold pointed out. The Kingsguard does not flee.

Then or now, said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

We swore a vow, explained old Ser Gerold.

HOWEVER, for Ned, from all of these knights, the finest of of them all is The Sword of The Morning, Ser Arthur Dayne!

Now, do you get the context???

No because the context is that people on here keep saying that Ned named Arthur, Hightower, and Whent as the best KG ever when he did nothing of the sort.

[Mithras]

“Oh, Alayne, Alayne, my fair maid, give me the gift of your innocence. You will thank the gods you did. I’ll have you singing louder than the Lady Lysa.”

Intercourse between a Stark maiden and a harpist is likened to singing. Their product must be a song. Between the right Stark maiden (Lyanna) and the right harpist (Rhaegar), this song (Jon) becomes the Song of Ice and Fire.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

No because the context is that people on here keep saying that Ned named Arthur, Hightower, and Whent as the best KG ever when he did nothing of the sort.

Who has put forth the statement that you're arguing against here (that Ned specifically named Dayne, Hightower and Whent as the best Kingsguard)? Please provide links to posts.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I feel like nothing I give will make you happy...but... With regards to the app, this is from George's blog and how the APP came together: X ...So, someone asked GRRM a bunch of questions and he answered it. But I don't, so far as I can find, see anywhere where George RR Martin, the actual human being either through his computer or through his voice, said it.

The app may not be perfect, but it was written with the help of Martin himself. The fact that it is in the app in the first place means that it was confirmed by Martin himself, because that's not exactly something with which they would take liberties.

You're right. It's only in the app that he sanctioned and personally worked on. I mean, it's not as if the app has Martin's name on it. ...oh, wait.

I see no reason to doubt the app, when Barristan says that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna . . .

So Jon is Neds son. Can you hear my evil laugh, can you? It's super evil.

That's fine... if the app is the source, I'm okay with that. It's just helpful to know. What I've been seeing lately (I think) comes across as second-hand reporting that (somewhere) there was an SSM, or an interview, something from Martin's own mouth or keyboard, specifically addressing the question of Rhaegar's dying word. The app is "official" - I get that. GRRM-approved. But suggesting that "Martin himself confirmed [specifically] that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips," has a different connotation to me than saying "Martin has approved an app, and the app says Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips." It may end up being the same thing, or it may not, when all is said and done. But for now, the two statements seem to carry different weight. As Ser Creighton notes above... if the two statements were just the same, then we might as well suggest that "Martin himself has confirmed that Jon Snow is Ned's son." Or, prior to one of the more recent updates to the app, we would have sworn that "Martin himself has confirmed that Jon Snow dies at Castle Black." (The Jon Snow entry used to include a "Place of Death," and no longer does.) Yet clearly we'd all agree those statements are questionable.

ETA: Apologies to BQ87 for the last comment (now deleted). I misunderstood her post.

[BearQueen87]

Please, BearQueen... we can disagree on this sort of thing without calling anyone a troll, I think. Is that really necessary? Surely we can disagree on the reliability of the app, and still discuss. I admit the tone of my post was a bit frustrated. I'd honestly been looking around for the SSM that everyone seemed mention whenever this issue came up. I wasn't finding it - and though I'd seen others ask for a link, nobody ever seemed to have a link. So I did find that a bit frustrating. Maybe the fact that it was really just an app-reference had come up before, and I missed that discussion. If so, sorry. I hadn't seen anyone point to the app as a source. It always just seemed to be attributed directly to Martin. Anyway, it's not that big a deal to me in the bigger picture. If it's in the app, it's in the app.

(The Jon Snow entry used to include a "Place of Death," and no longer does.) Yet clearly we'd all agree those statements are questionable.

There is a big difference between thoughtful and insightful discussion (such as you and I have had) and someone literally refusing to listen and read what we're saying and harping on the same damn thing over and over and over. And I'm not sure why I'm being singled out here when many others have said the exact same damn thing to this person. So maybe we don't preach at me?

[sj4iy]

Please, BearQueen... we can disagree on this sort of thing without calling anyone a troll, I think. Is that really necessary? Surely we can disagree on the reliability of the app, and still discuss. I admit the tone of my post was a bit frustrated. I'd honestly been looking around for the SSM that everyone seemed mention whenever this issue came up. I wasn't finding it - and though I'd seen others ask for a link, nobody ever seemed to have a link. So I did find that a bit frustrating. Maybe the fact that it was really just an app-reference had come up before, and I missed that discussion. If so, sorry. I hadn't seen anyone point to the app as a source. It always just seemed to be attributed directly to Martin. Anyway, it's not that big a deal to me in the bigger picture. If it's in the app, it's in the app.

There is a big difference between thoughtful and insightful discussion (such as you and I have had) and someone literally refusing to listen and read what we're saying and harping on the same damn thing over and over and over. And I'm not sure why I'm being singled out here when many others have said the exact same damn thing to this person. So maybe we don't preach at me?

I think this is a misunderstanding.

Pretty sure BQ87 was talking about markg171 being the troll, Snowfyre...not you.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

There is a big difference between thoughtful and insightful discussion (such as you and I have had) and someone literally refusing to listen and read what we're saying and harping on the same damn thing over and over and over. And I'm not sure why I'm being singled out here when many others have said the exact same damn thing to this person. So maybe we don't preach at me?

I think this is a misunderstanding.

Pretty sure BQ87 was talking about markg171 being the troll, Snowfyre...not you.

Apologies, BQ87. If the comment was not directed at me, then I definitely misunderstood. Very sorry!

[MtnLion]

That's fine... if the app is the source, I'm okay with that. It's just helpful to know. What I've been seeing lately (I think) comes across as second-hand reporting that (somewhere) there was an SSM, or an interview, something from Martin's own mouth or keyboard, specifically addressing the question of Rhaegar's dying word.

As I recall it is within the last three-four years; just before the app; that should be helpful. Unfortunately, there has been a lot of multimedia information which has not been transcribed and searchable. Also, I have seen things edited out of SSMs, where the entire quote was changed. (The one that bothers me the most is about Brandon answering Littlefinger's challenge. "After the winter" had been included in that quote, was edited out, and I have even been unable to find that SSM at all, presently.)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

As I recall it is within the last three-four years; just before the app; that should be helpful. Unfortunately, there has been a lot of multimedia information which has not been transcribed and searchable. Also, I have seen things edited out of SSMs, where the entire quote was changed. (The one that bothers me the most is about Brandon answering Littlefinger's challenge. "After the winter" had been included in that quote, was edited out, and I have even been unable to find that SSM at all, presently.)

Yes, the disappearance or revision of SSMs would be remarkable. I'm sure as his story has grown in length and complexity, there are a number of things Martin looks back on and wishes he hadn't said on the record. Not that he could have known just how obsessive we fans would get about the whole thing... but being held accountable for everything stray comment you've made along the way would definitely feel like a hassle, I'm thinking.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

“Oh, Alayne, Alayne, my fair maid, give me the gift of your innocence. You will thank the gods you did. I’ll have you singing louder than the Lady Lysa.”

Intercourse between a Stark maiden and a harpist is likened to singing. Their product must be a song. Between the right Stark maiden (Lyanna) and the right harpist (Rhaegar), this song (Jon) becomes the Song of Ice and Fire.

bumping because it's a good catch...

[sj4iy]

Martin has give so, SO many interviews in the past few years that it's nearly impossible to find any specific quote any more.

[Mithras]

bumping because it's a good catch...

It is only one of the tips of the massive iceberg floating below :cool4:

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children— lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River— to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

Note that the Crab King and the Old Man of the River fights an eternal war for dominion, like Ice and Fire.

“Up and down,” Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, “then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran.”

“Yesterday you said you loved them.”

“Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say.”

Bran made a face at her. “But you just said you hated them.”

“Why can’t it be both?” Meera reached up to pinch his nose.

“Because they’re different,” he insisted. “Like night and day, or ice and fire.”

“If ice can burn,” said Jojen in his solemn voice, “then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one.”

Lightbringer is a song?

[IceFire125]

“Oh, Alayne, Alayne, my fair maid, give me the gift of your innocence. You will thank the gods you did. I’ll have you singing louder than the Lady Lysa.”

Intercourse between a Stark maiden and a harpist is likened to singing. Their product must be a song. Between the right Stark maiden (Lyanna) and the right harpist (Rhaegar), this song (Jon) becomes the Song of Ice and Fire.

YES!! it's totally Rhaegar!!!! and it's totally GRRM's subtle hints and clues right our very eyes...

Arya is the embodiment of Lyanna's image, but the inner of Lyanna, you could argue, is Sansa..

just a few lines before that quote...

“Sweet Alayne. I am Marillion. I saw you come in from the rain. The night is chill and wet. Let me warm you.”

Rhaegar stole Lyanna at night when the Thief (The Red Wanderer) was bright in the Moonmaid, just as Jon stole Ygritte (and Val).

“And very beautiful. All night I have been making songs for you in my head. A lay for your eyes, a ballad for your lips, a duet to your breasts. I will not sing them, though. They were poor things, unworthy of such beauty.” He sat on her bed and put his hand on her leg. “Let me sing to you with my body instead.”

She caught a whiff of his breath. “You’re drunk.”

“I never get drunk. Mead only makes me merry. I am on fire.”

It is only one of the tips of the massive iceberg floating below :cool4:

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children— lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River— to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

Lightbringer is a song?

The Song of Ice and Fire???? ^_^

If your father offends me, I will destroy him with a verse (from the song).

[Jon Weirgaryen]

The quote anchors into R+L=J as the Song has a certain meaning here...

Mithras Stoneborn, on 19 Dec 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

bumping because it's a good catch...

ASoS 68 Sansa VI

And that reminds me of another Song of the same Stark maiden, of the so called un-kiss, where Sandor asks for a song from Sansa,

• and they do not kiss.
• and he gets the song.

This is it. Some people think all Sandor got was the song. And all Sansa got was his bloody cloak.

Fancy to reread it?

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. "Still can't bear to look, can you?" she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said." His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life."

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don't kill me, she wanted to scream, please don't. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered. It was not the song of Florian and Jonquil, but it was a song. Her voice sounded small and thin and tremulous in her ears.

Gentle Mother, font of mercy,
save our sons from war, we pray,
stay the swords and stay the arrows,
let them know a better day.
Gentle Mother, strength of women,
help our daughters through this fray,
soothe the wrath and tame the fury,
teach us all a kinder way.

She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off, she feared he might kill her, but after a moment the Hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking.

Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. "Little bird," he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps.

ACoK 62 Sansa VII towards the end of the chapter

This quote might help clarify:

I am free of Joffrey. I will not have to kiss him, nor give him my maidenhood, nor bear him children. Let Margaery Tyrell have all that, poor girl.

ACoK 65 Sansa VIII

But then the memory changes...

...kissing the Hound, as she had. He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.

ASoS 16 Sansa II

This is quite a strange one and does not quite meet the meaning of the song in the first quote.